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Old 03-16-2013
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Re: Full or fin keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
..If a boat is a full time, live-aboard, long range, cruiser, it will be a heavy boat; fin keel or not... There is very little to merit the fin keel boat when used on the “SMALLER” sizes of long distance cruisers....
I have never, at any time, stated that all boats, of any length, benefit from having a full keel. I have always referenced “Smaller” boats, ie, 20 to 35 feet or so. I will say this to you for the 3rd time: The short, heavy, full keel, live-aboard/voyaging boat, will out perform the fin keel counterpart, in just about any condition.
Woah, that is some particularization: So in your opinion full keel boast are only better if they are cumulatively:

Short heavy small boats, long rage cruisers intended for voyaging or living aboard.

That is particularizing almost ad infinitum Yes I agree that is the situation where a full keel loses less to a fin keel boat. That particularization of a boat is so narrow that on the huge European market with thousands of different boats proposed to different sailors I don't know of any modern design that fits the bill. But I do know of small heavy boast particularly suited for living aboard: the Sirius line, but they are fin keel boats:

The 31 and the 35:








Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
.. Some of you insist on comparing similar displacements of boats. That is your right, and some people will do that, but please don’t assume that all people want a longer boat. They do not.
Regarding small heavy boats compared with bigger sailing boats with the same weight and the same load capacity, it seems you didn't understand the point:

I explain the logic of that comparison: Budget, function and the price of the boat.

In boats with similar quality, weight more than size is a price indicator. Heavy small boats like the Sirius or the Vancoeuver (that was proposed till recently) cost the price of a much bigger lighter mass production sailboat. The Sirius 31 costs the price of a 37/38 mass production boat and the Vancouver 36 the price of a 42ft boat. The load each boat can carry, the smaller and the bigger one with the same price, are about the same but the bigger one offers a lot more interior space and space, as carrying load, is a much needed commodity to live abroad. The bigger boats are not only more comfortable in a seaway and safe or safer than the smaller ones.

There could be people that for the same budget would chose the smaller boat for living aboard but, as the market shows, that would be a small minority.

Of course, the used market, particularly the used market with very old boats introduces all kinds of distortions and it is possible that this price comparison does not apply anymore. Probably the heavy small boats devalued more than the bigger boats that once had the same price and now they cost less than bigger lighter boats that once costed the same.

We are talking about design and about Full Keel versus Fin keel and what matters regarding that is the state of the art, meaning modern boats and the efficiency of one system versus the other, not what you can find on the used market. In what regards the used market you have a limited choice and in some cases a full keel boat can be a better choice over a given fin keel boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post

... I have observed a number of ridiculous comments concerning ocean going boats. ...

The most ridiculous of the comments? Hannah2 said “The new designs being built in Europe have solved those problems for open ocean crossings”

Another by Outbound, “ability to point and make a good days run in light/moderate air remain failings of most full keeled boats.

PCP? Too numerous to bother with. ON THE SMALLER BOATS that are used for long distance sustained cruising, the problems created by the ocean have not been solved by any of the new boat designs. ...
....
There is simply no over-riding benefit to crossing an ocean, Down wind or Upwind, in light wind, or heavy air, on a fin keeled, or light weight, ocean voyaging, live-aboard, cruising sailboat.
Regarding this, when Hannah is talking about he is referring to bigger boats, boats that eventually cost the same price of the smaller heavy boats with living aboard capacity and he is referring to new designs. On the European market everybody that goes voyaging will prefer a bigger boat than a proportionally much heavier smaller one that costs the same and has a much inferior sail performances.

You assume that everybody that goes for long distance voyaging and extended periods of living aboard travels and lives with a lot of stuff. On this days of watermakers and digital information it can be otherwise and some that voyage do that on modern small light weight sailboats and those boats with an adequate charge will outperform in a stellar way any old designed small heavy weight full keeler, in 95% of the conditions.

I guess that a pleasure circumnavigation counts in your book as voyaging. Look at this couple on a 33ft boat that had crossed the Atlantic with an average well over 7k and are completing now his circumnavigation. On the passage between Cape Town and Bahia his average speed over the ground was 7.7K. And we are talking with a boat with a crew of two, the skipper and his wive.



I will not generalize saying this boat and travelling light and enjoying this kind of life will suit to all. You should do the same regarding saying: "There is simply no over-riding benefit to crossing an ocean, Down wind or Upwind, in light wind, or heavy air, on a fin keeled, or light weight, ocean voyaging, live-aboard, cruising sailboat."

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-16-2013 at 10:33 AM.
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