Originally Posted by PCP
What side? The one that says that there is only one type of cruising and voyage boat that fits all?
My side is that there are many types of voyage boats all adapted to a given type of cruising and voyaging, but covering different and specific needs. Some of them are way slower and heavier than the Catalina 400. They suit different kinds of sailors and are the perfect choice for each one of them. That's why there are a specific market for each type of long range cruisers, because long range cruisers wants them: they suit their living and sailing style but different living and sailing styles anyway.
This thread seems to be about the ones that prefer to voyage fast and enjoy sailing while they are doing that and the boats adequate to them. There are a relatively big offer of small production boats for this kind of sailors and that means that there is a lot of them.
What is your point and Brian's point? That those sailors are wrong and cannot enjoy sailing and live the way they like?
That only the way that you like to voyage and live and the boats adapted to that particular "taste" are good and adequate to long range voyage?
I confess I don't get your or Brian's point. Maybe I have understood wrongly and this thread is about the right of existence of sailors that like to voyage fast and the boats that are designed for them.
whatever you say they exist and in growing numbers, as well as the boats adapted to them. That you don't like their live style and their boats and that they are not fit to you? Big deal, that's obvious. What about you understanding that the reverse is also true: That those sailors would not be interested in a Catalina 400 as a voyage boat because it does not fit their life style, voyage stile and sailing pleasure?
I am not taking anything you say personally. I agree with your signature earlier: in friendship. This is simply a discussion about boats and use, especially as it pertains to racing type boats.
My point in all of this, which I may not have explained well, is to discuss the feasibility of certain boats for cruising. It certainly is not to pick on any particular boat or say that a particular boat is 'bad'.
I have tried to be very specific in my comments and reasoning. I have laid out exactly what I carry and the space it takes up. My point in doing that was to discuss what we carry, how it would fit in other boats, what might be excluded, and the repercussions/impacts of putting the chosen items on other boats.
What I wanted others to see is that many of the things, if not most of the things we carry, are not unique to us. You will find that if you are a cruiser, you will carry these items too. As you look through my list and discount some items, you may realistically add other items too which are important to you. As you do, you will begin to get a feel for the amount of storage which you will need to successfully or comfortably cruise on the boat of your choice to the comfort level of your choice. You may also see that you will have to do without things in order to make your boat of choice work. This may alter your boat choice.
I keep comparing these different boats to a Catalina 400, though I could also do the same with a Tayana 42 or Catalina 380. My reason for using these boats as opposing examples are not because I consider these the perfect boat to go cruising on. In fact, I do not. However, I know the boats and their strengths and weaknesses. I know what works here and does not - first hand. I have lived through and experienced things that I like, things I don't, things that have worked for us, and things that have not. I then compare these experiences against other boats and how those experiences would influence my selection of those boats for a cruiser. For example, I have been on several Firsts and a J122. I see very serious shortcomings with those boats for the cruising we do, and in fact, the cruising most anyone would do. I also believe those shortcomings would not be unique to us. I have tried to lay out specifics on why.
When discussing the RM, I do not in any way think it is a bad boat. I have tried to be very cautious when discussing it because I have not personally seen the boat and am making judgement calls and comparisons to mine without a first hand examination. However, I still see (from experience) things that cry out to me as deficiencies.
So to be clear, I was trying to discuss boats from a cruising point of view. I wanted to be specific and make this an educational discussion. This thread was never to pick out the perfect boat. It was also in no way to say you cannot cruise on a particular boat. It was simply a thread of information and discussions on what works, what we each like, what we don't like, and the tradeoffs of certain boats if you chose them for cruising (specifically racer-cruisers) and why. In this discussion, I wanted to bring out specifics on some boats and discuss them. The RM was a good example, but I have not set foot on one, so much of what I am talking about is from pictures... which I hesitate to do. However, even with the RM, I think we can have a reasonable discussion on its negatives and positives. We can do the same on the C400 and I can give many negatives of the C400 for cruising also.
That was my point.