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Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Paulo posted an interesting link for the various ARC rallies. First, there are a lot of really rich folks out there and the vast majority of boats are in the $500K (USD) to $1M price range. The typical 45-65 foot Oysters, Hylas, Moodys etc.
You have to look again The vast majority of boats are Jeanneau, Bavaria, Beneteau. Some Pogos too and a considerable number of Lagoon by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post

.. The boats would be more comparable if we placed them side by side on a table. I have done this for my own boat as well as the 400 and 409. Please double check the numbers. For example, the Jeanneau’s keel and displacement values appear to be on the light side. I have a series of formulas that calculate all sorts of ratios so that might be of future interest.
Yes, old formulas to old boats, you can stay with them but they are useless for modern boats. Of course the Jeanneau is light compared to a Catalina, a sailboat is supposed to be light, specially if we want to have a good performance.

The jeanneau is built with an infusion process that can make it lighter an as strong as a heavier boat. About the keel weight, the weight you need on a keel has a direct relation with the weight of the boat, the draft and the keel design. The jeanneau has more draft, is lighter and has a modern bulbed keel while the Catalina has an old designed non bulbed one. You cannot make a direct comparison. You can look at sail area. Sail area is normally proportional to the boat stability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post

The “fatty” 400 is a mere 5 inches wider than the Jeanneau. Another surprising dimension is the 409’s LWL is only an inch shorter than it’s LOA.
Fat has not to do with beam alone and sometimes has nothing to do with it. A 40class racer is hugely more beamier than any of those boats and is the opposite of a fat boat. It has to do with the hull, weight and the bow entries. When I said that the Catalina was fat I was comparing it with the RM (that has more beam than the Catalina). regarding the Jeanneau the difference is probably not so big but the Jeanneau has obviously a faster and more elegant hull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post

Catalina 34 MkII PHRF 144

Catalina 400 PHRF 110

Jeaneau 409 PHRF 73

Aereodyne 38 PHRF 27

...
Here you have pertinent information regarding performance but I don't understand where yo got that PHRF for the Aerodyne 38. The numbers I got are 39 for the all carbon version and 42 for the epoxy/carbon version. Regarding the Aerodyne price you can only be joking: or it is an used old boat or a very, very old price...and even so.

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

I love the Aerodyne, a boat designed by Rodger Martin. They were made in South Africa and now it seems it is a Finnish company (don't know if they are made there or are still in business). There are some sailors that would not mind to cruise in them but the boat is a cruiser racer with a very strong optimization for racing and the interior even if functional is a bit stark.

Probably in what regards cruising would be a more extreme boat than a J122. That is not a boat designed with voyage in mind but certainly it has the potential seaworthiness and stability to be used that way, if adapted for the job and providing the ones that would voyage in it are the kind of sailors that would chose a very light and fast boat to voyage and don't mind the spartan look and feel.

It would probably need a watermaker but the engine (and the diesel) would only be used for charging the batteries because that boat can SAIL with very light wind. Little diesel tankage would be needed.

I don't know why you bring the 34ft Catalina. It is not in the same class as the others in what regards size, stability or seaworthiness as a blue water cruiser.

The Catalina 400 only has that PHRF (100) with the deep keel. Brian's boat with a shallow keel has a PHRF of 120.

The jeanneau and the Catalina are the same type of boat. Brian says the Catalina interior is bigger and has more storage but I know that the Jeanneau 409 with two cabins has a big storage with plenty space for generator and all that stuff. The differences would not be considerable even if the storage of the Catalina can, according to Brian, be slightly bigger.

The performance is very different, a PHRF of 120 compared with a 73.

Note that I am not saying that all sailors would like more the Jeanneau. There are heavier and slower boats than the Catalina 400, specially on the American market, but obviously performance is an important point in boats with similar cruising characteristics, I mean belonging to the same market segment.

Anyway the importance of that varies with sailors, as the relative importance of having what one finds to be a nice interior and that depends in great measure of personal taste. What is important is to have a boat that we like and that is adapted to the cruising and sailing style of each one.

For me the Jeanneau 409 is not enough fun or fast to sail and don't have a traveler near the wheel. I would not have one for cruising and sailing.

Probably the Aerodyne has a cruiser interior too spartan for me (but functional and adapted to more spartan cruisers), besides it is out of my price range.

I would say that If new, regarding 40ft boats I would chose the Salona 41 (I don't like the Dehler 41 interior) and even so it would be a bit more expensive than the Jeanneau. I also like the J122 and could live with one but the price is also out of my reach. My boat would also be an option but also out of my range as new.

But that is just what is adapted to me, my life style and cruising style. Some would prefer faster boats for cruising (and there are some on this site with them) and most would settle for a slower boat with more interior space (more fat) and with more storage.

Bottom point: you have to find out first what is your budget and then see if you have money for a new boat or just an used one. if you have money for a new boat you have to see if you are limited or if you can chose and what is the scope of that choice. Then, according with the budget, you have to try to understand what type of boat will make you happy. Sometimes you only have 2 or 3 possible choices.

For that it is important to see the boat interior on a boat show and it is fundamental to sail the boat. A Catalina 400 would seem very similar to a jeanneau 409 on a boat show (with different styles) but in the water it would be a completely different boat.

All boats are different even if we can join them in groups according with speed and sailing characteristics but even so they feel differently at the wheel and that, as well as the sailing characteristics, will probably be important to you, they are certainly to me.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-23-2013 at 10:36 PM.
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