So- someone else said it- what I was getting at bug couldn't quite convey - boats that fall apart and kill people don't win. None of these teams want to lose, therefore they designed boats to be as safe as possible. Anyway- I do think its worth noting that every generation of equipment is designed to be an improvement over the previous iterations perceived shortcomings. That means many things- but the part to focus on is that performance is why drives innovation and development in the field- not safety. So If an improvement in performance can be complimented by improved safety- it is, if that can't be accomplished- the modifications are made to improve the performance- relying on previous safety measures to remain adequate until such time as performance upgrades or whatever are called for.The football analogy only applies as I offered it. Only to the mentality of the players. You can't extend the analogy to a point that I didn't make.
You also can't stretch the accusation to say I was suggesting the AC owners/designers completely ignored safety.
My point has and continues to be that they have made these craft more dangerous, while other sports strive to make their next gen equipment less dangerous and more capable at the same time. Following that fact, I do not believe the crews have any choice but to accept that increased danger, even if they or their loved ones would prefer not to.
I think you start off in Sabot's at a young age.jephotog- OMG- ????how do you train to do that for the first time?????
He He, that boat is so easy, I mean the America schooner, that I was the captain of a replica for half an hour while doing my unlimited Captain's examination. I put it sailing downwind butterfly style with opposed sails. Got the sailors scared because they didn't know if I knew what I was doingThe American Cup Races should go back to the "J" boats or even the schooner that the race is named after.
Remember this is food for thoughts. But think about it.
It can not be endemic to "these boats" because each of the boats is designed and built separately. They all will have different strengths and weaknesses depending on the design/build teams input.A thing to consider is that we want the cup to go the team with the best designed boat crewed by the best sailors, not to the team most willing to endanger the lives of their crew.
Racers will accept a much higher level of risk that the rest of us are comfortable with. That is part of what makes them racers.
A few years ago there was a CART race scheduled for the Texas Speedway, a course designed for slower NASCAR races. The highly banked corners allowed the CART cars to run full out all the way around the track, meaning they were pulling over 5 Gs for a lot of the course.
Every one of the drivers did a series of test laps. So every one of the drivers knew that they were nearing blackout, losing all peripheral vision and becoming disoriented. And they were all willing to race like that.
It was only when a doctor noticed that one of the drivers wasn't able to walk in a straight line for quite a while after his test laps that they started interviewing other drivers and learned of the danger.
The governing body decided this was a level of risk they could not take, and canceled the race just hours before race time. It cost them tens of millions.
The racers were willing to take the risk, they would have gladly driven into that bloodbath. And the winner wouldn't have been the best driver, the winner would have been the one lucky enough to not black out at the wrong time or to get hit by someone else who blacked out at the wrong time.
It wouldn't have been a contest of skill, it would have been televised Russian Roulette.
If it is the case that the Artemis boat broke up before it crashed, and if it is the case that this structural weakness is endemic to these boats, then we're basically watching a dice game, not a game of skill. You roll snake eyes and your boat cracks up. Next roller step up to the table, please.
I am surprised you know the cheese da serra. I thought we eat them allserra great heese, we eat parmeseano arergiano too as well as the blue cheese aged by the monks in the caves. There are some pretty outstanding bries in France. Actually.
In addition, what I thought was a very good proposal from LATITUDE 38, written after the first capsize of ORACLE last October:May 17, 2013, 6:33 p.m. ET
Larry Ellison's Dangerous America's Cup
The new boats have made the race life-threatening-and have dumbed down the sailing.
By G. BRUCE KNECHT
Last week, an Olympic gold medalist died in San Francisco Bay while training for America's Cup, the world's most famous sailing competition. British sailor Andrew Simpson's death is the latest evidence that the current competition is fundamentally flawed.
Billionaire Larry Ellison's ambitions for the America's Cup have always gone beyond winning, which he did in 2010 with his Team Oracle. The America's Cup winner determines the ground rules for the next competition, and Mr. Ellison created a new class of large but lightweight double-hulled vessels that are powered by solid "wing" sails. He hoped the supercharged catamarans would catapult the 162-year-old event into the modern age and transform it into a spectator sport fit for TV.
In terms of the hardware, Mr. Ellison has succeeded. When the wings and wind are properly aligned, the 72-foot boats-or AC72s, as they are known-literally lift out of the water, supported only by the foils on their daggerboards, the retractable keels that drop down from each of the hulls. The vessels skim across the water at speeds of close to 50 miles per hour.
In October, an AC72 built by Mr. Ellison's team, Oracle Team USA, flipped and was severely damaged. The wipeout came as a surprise to many-but not to the sailors. They already knew that AC72s are dangerous, overpowered beasts that are always skating on the edge of catastrophe.
This risk-plus the massive expense to design and build the boats-is why Mr. Ellison failed to deliver on his promise that more than a dozen teams would challenge Oracle for the cup this year. Only three signed up: Artemis Racing, representing Sweden; Luna Rossa Challenge, bankrolled by Patrizio Bertelli, the owner of Prada and a longtime sponsor of Italy's America's Cup campaigns; and Emirates Team New Zealand, the airline-backed national team.
The fatal accident came when one of Artemis Racing's bows dug into the water and structural elements disintegrated, causing the vessel to fold up on itself and capsize. Mr. Simpson, a 36-year-old married father of two, was trapped underneath.
Artemis has not determined whether it will press on with its campaign. Luna Rossa's Mr. Bertelli says he will leave it up to his crew. "If they told me to stop, that wouldn't be a problem for me," he told Yacht Capital, an Italian sailing magazine, last week. "This Cup with the AC72s is too extreme. They have to realize it and change, revise the rules, everything."
Having written about sailing for the last 15 years, I believe Mr. Bertelli is correct, and that Larry Ellison should rethink the guidelines for this year's race.
Mr. Ellison didn't become one of the world's richest men by holding back from challenges. When I interviewed him for my book about the deadly 1998 Sydney to Hobart Race, in which he sailed, he told me he believed the purpose of life is to engage in difficult competitions to determine how good we are.
But after the Hobart Race, during which six sailors died, Mr. Ellison said there had to be limits: "This is not what racing is supposed to be. Difficult, yes. Dangerous, no. Life-threatening, definitely not." Because of the Hobart Race, Mr. Ellison gave up ocean racing and turned to inshore sailing contests such as the America's Cup. "I decided to focus on a more technical and less life-threatening form of sailing," he told me in 2008.
Yet it is Mr. Ellison who has made the America's Cup dangerous. Until his involvement, beginning in 2000, winning was determined both by the intrinsic speeds of the boats and by tactical decisions about where each team positioned its vessel relative to the opposition throughout the race.
The AC72s are all about straight-line speed. They are so difficult, time-consuming and dangerous to turn that boat-to-boat tactics are less important than simply keeping the monsters under control. Consequently, the enhanced technological sophistication of the AC72s has had the effect of dumbing down the sailing, another reason for Mr. Ellison to reconsider.
The Cup, which is supposed to begin in September after an elimination round in July, would not have to be postponed. Since 2011, the contenders have been racing against each other in much safer 45-foot catamarans. The Cup could be sailed with them.
You're probably thinking that the headstrong Mr. Ellison will never agree to it. You are probably right. Then again, he understands that his legacy will be forever intertwined with the America's Cup. Not long before he became the first American to win it since 1995, I suggested to him that if he prevailed the first words of his obituary might be about sailing rather than his business achievements. He did not disagree. "Oracle could disappear someday," he said. "The America's Cup will not."
Indeed. The best way for Mr. Ellison to secure his position as the founder of the modern-day America's Cup would be to admit that the AC72s are a mistake.
Mr. Knecht is the author of "The Proving Ground: the Inside Story of the 1998 Sydney to Hobart Race" (Little, Brown & Co., 2001).
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323582904578484962602072632.html
A Modest Proposal
October 17, 2012 - San Francisco Bay
It took yesterday's capsize - and recovery, such as it was - of the Oracle AC72 to make us fully appreciate just how gigantic and unwieldy these catamarans are. Actually, it wasn't the capsizing in 25 knots of wind that shocked us - at some point we all expected that to happen - but rather the video of the nine Oracle rescue boats struggling in vain to keep the askew monster from drifting a reported four miles outside the Gate on a strong ebb. "We're a little out of control here!" the video screamed at us.
Thank god nobody was seriously hurt or killed. Let us repeat that: Thank god nobody was seriously hurt or killed.
We were even more surprised by the fact that - while the capsized Oracle was still drifting out the Gate, and bits of her main were becoming souvenirs all over the Bay - it was announced that nothing has changed, and that the America's Cup 34 will continue as planned.
In the past, Oracle honcho Russell Coutts has seemed to confess that maybe they had gone a little too extreme with the parameters of the AC72s in an attempt to make the America's Cup competition more exciting. Ya think? As such, it crosses our minds that the capsize of the Oracle cat, and the total destruction of her main, might signal a perfect opportunity to take a week or so to digest what has happened, what it portends for the event as planned, and what possible alternatives there might be.
At this stage of the game, it would be extremely embarassing, very poor form, and create an uproar if dramatic changes were made to the very fundamentals of the 34th America's Cup. On the other hand, would it not be even worse form and more humiliating if not even two of the 72s, and their mains, survived their trials for there to even be an America's Cup?
If we were Russell Coutts, and more importantly, Larry Ellison, we would take this opportunity to suggest an alternative to all interested stakeholders. The alternative is that the huge - as well as hugely expensive and hugely complicated AC72 cats - be scrapped as of right now. To make up for what the other teams have invested, Larry would purchase a MOD 70 trimaran for each of the teams that has participated so far. Given the much less expensive option, other syndicates might decide to jump in.
Despite having only soft sails, these brand new extremely high performance trimarans from VPVL have proven themselves, both when sailing across the Atlantic and in inshore races in Europe. We're talking over 700 miles in 24 hours in their first ocean race, and lots of mid-30s at other times. The MOD 70s are only two feet shorter than the AC72s, damn near as fast, and cost a fraction of the price. And having raced across the Atlantic at 30+ knots, have what it takes to race safely on San Francisco Bay.
Since the MOD 70s are one-designs with soft sails, they are compartively easy, quick and inexpensive to build - particularly when compared to the AC72s. And because the first batch was made in Europe, we're sure another dozen could be made in time for next year's slated World Series in Venice, Italy, in April and Naples, Italy, in May, and be already in Europe for those events. After the European World Series, they could be shipped to Newport, Rhode Island, and then San Francisco, for additional World Series events in the summer of '13. That means the America's Cup 34 would be postponed until '14, which is fine with us, as we think it's a much better prospect than what we're sailing toward now. And one last thing that we think every spectator would agree on - the America's Cup should be fleet racing, not match-racing, which is so last century.
I'd give my eye tooth to get one way. They are cutting edge.I agree with Paulo - that was a stupid story. Way too hysterical.
The 72 is an incredible boat (watch that video!). They all just need more time to tame it a bit.
If the sail cannot be depowered enough they have to redesign the sail. It would be a bad precedent to change the rules and the protocol at the middle of an AC. I am not sure that can be done even if all agree. The rules were made by the one that had the right to do them. The boats were designed to perform according to those rules and in what regards wind they are:Enjoy your AC 72's, for those that are all for them. I'll bet this is the last year they race in the AC with them. Frekin nuts to be on one of these things in 33 knots- that is almost 40 mph with a sail you cannot de-power- frekin nuts....
Quote:Where did this concept that wing sails can't be de-powered come from? A sail generates lift (gets its power from the curvature of the outer surface) a wing sail has the ability to be flattened more than a traditional sail. Thats how they get a semi solid surface to function on both tacks. They have the ability to bend the wing in an indefinite number of positions adding more or less power, on each tack. that also gives them the ability to leave the wing virtually flat on both sides and effectively powerless.
New rules state 23 knots max. It will be interesting how this plays out. One of the main reasons to use the AC 72's was to have a fixed definite start date/time for the TV viewing audience. As all sailors know, a schedule is the most dangerous thing to have when sailing.Afternoon winds in "The Slot" (the clear air zone east of the Golden Gate Bridge between Angel Island and Treasure Island) are usually 25-35kts with higher gusts from early June to late September/October. This area has a daily afternoon SCA warning, which only gets dropped when the pressure difference decreases by lower inland temperatures. The pressure gradient formed between the hot inland valley and the coast creates a Venturi effect at The Gate.
I think it would be very difficult to find event days in July where the predicted wind is lower than 25kts. They could hold the race earlier in the day but the wind comes up quickly when it starts blowing so there is not much time between the light morning air and winds above 25kts.
One mans' opinion,and that is what I was talking about:
"But the issue of reducing the wind limits for the regatta is likely to prove the most divisive for the teams.
The regatta director's recommendations advise the wind limit be reduced to 20kts in July, 21kts in August, and 23kts in September, with additional wind limit adjustments for tide and sea state.
Team New Zealand managing director Grant Dalton told the Herald at the weekend his team made trade-offs with the design of their boat to ensure it was robust enough to cope with the wind range originally set down in the protocol, and extensive testing had shown their boat was reliable in heavy conditions...
"We have confidence in our boat - design, engineering and construction -and the sailing and support crews. We have invested a lot of time and money on safety."
."
Yachting: Safety increases recommended for America's Cup - Sport - NZ Herald News
But if the CG wants to stop a race, because of conditions or the boat itself, they could declare the voyage manefestly unsafe. Note I said "could". They do have the jurisdiction to do this.I don't see the CG preventing boats from racing in over 25kts of wind. The CG issues permits for events that take place both on SF Bay and outside of SF Gate in heavier wind/sea conditions. Usually what happens if the weather is extremely rough is that the Race Committee holds a meeting before the race and everyone is warned about the wind/seas and given the opportunity to scratch from the race; or postpone the race altogether. This gives skippers a chance to assess the seaworthiness of the boat, their sailing skills, and that of their crew. The crew also has the opportunity to decline to sail in the conditions; knowing what they will be going out in.
The CG issues the permit weeks before the race day so they have no jurisdiction on the event's weather conditions. There have been times when USCG did not issue an event permit (following the Low Speed Chase accident); to determine what the cause was and give the racing fleet time to re-assess their internal safety protocols. This did not happen during the Lightship race when Daisy and her crew was lost in heavy conditions a few years back; instead USCG did an escort for the following offshore race to the Farallones. These are offshore events that have had more scrutiny because of the extreme conditions that occur on SF Bar when the wind and swell are up during the winter months. It's not uncommon for the swell to be 12-15' on short period with breakers out on the bar. The races are still permitted and it's not a common occurrence for the racing boats that do go out to be lost.
The AC 72 sailing in the conditions of SF bay is relatively new and totally different from your typical mono hull racing boat. I could see the CG stopping the race if the AC organization does not adapt the proposed changes. It looks like the AC org however will make the necessary changes to satisfy the CG so all is well, at least until all of this goes to the courts.The do but to my knowledge it has never happened for an inshore race; and the boats racing these events are not as thoroughly prepared, or self scrutinized for safety as much as the AC boats are. If casual crews can race in these conditions that are commonplace where would there be any reason/precedent for the USCG to decline to issue a permit for an AC event? That's not to mention that the accident that occurred was on a non-racing team practice day. In light of that, are we to expect the USCG to start cancelling sailing on SF Bay entirely when the wind hits 22kts? Will I get a ticket if my boat is heeled more than 30 degrees?
Point is the CG does have the authority.These regulations apply to production ships and boats; not one-off craft. I seriously doubt the USCG is going to question the structural design of the AC72 fleet, which are probably the most technically advanced sailing craft on the planet (aside from Hydroptere and other foiling cats).
If the USCG does a safety check they are looking for lifejackets, flares, and other basic safety and structural flaws. A guy built an all Aluminum trimaran to sail offshore (Circumnav?) a few years ago; the CG stopped him at SF Gate and did a safety check; then let him go. The boat was not built anywhere near the standards for offshore sailing cats. It only made it as far as Santa Cruz before it had major problems IIRC.
Yea, why argue the point...It's not gonna happen; so why argue the point? USCG is not going to shut down a multi-billion dollar event/venue just because one person lost their life in an accident. Have they stopped Luna Rossa from testing their boat? Has the AC committee stopped Luna Rossa despite their 'stop practicing for now' request? Every boat has a pretty tight timetable now for getting prepped and as I said before, the USCG is not going to step in and be blamed for causing a multi-billion dollar event to be scratched.