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Another America�s Cup entry destroyed

38K views 386 replies 55 participants last post by  shadowraiths 
#1 ·
#59 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Get rid of those flying hull big cats. They just killed someone. Stick to the monos.
OMG, I'm going to stop taking baths because I just heard that one can die in 2 inches of water!
At least Bart died doing something he had a passion for, and was quite good at, by all accounts.
Beats rotting away with cancer or some such, which happens to those his age, too.
 
#3 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

As cynical and awful as it may sound, I don't think that the death of a crewman is enough to shake these guys from their commitment to these boats and this format. They have invested so much time and money into them that I think the only thing that will make the Oracle team abandon the boats is if they just prove to be so fragile that they can't run the races (enough of the participants run through their allotment of two boats), or if the racing community decides they're too expensive/dangerous to operate and they decline to participate in future cups.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see a different cup holder (if Oracle loses) change back to monohulls or some less extreme version of a catamaran.
 
#5 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

As cynical and awful as it may sound, I don't think that the death of a crewman is enough to shake these guys from their commitment to these boats and this format. They have invested so much time and money into them that I think the only thing that will make the Oracle team abandon the boats is if they just prove to be so fragile that they can't run the races (enough of the participants run through their allotment of two boats), or if the racing community decides they're too expensive/dangerous to operate and they decline to participate in future cups.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see a different cup holder (if Oracle loses) change back to monohulls or some less extreme version of a catamaran.
Racing by its nature is dangerous. Its not like AC participants are being killed regularly like the heyday of Formula 1 auto racing.

Its sad a sailor was lost, but its hardly a common occurrence and while I don't love the Cats like the mono's of old, it seems the new boats and new format are helping bring the AC back from the brink of anachronism.
 
#6 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

This sucks.

How much time needs to go by until they use the "danger" as a marketing tactic to draw more audiences to the "excitement"

There is too much money poured into the show that is big cat racing to allow anything to stop it now.
 
#7 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

This is a shame, RIP.

I too wish they would go back to the mono-hull but not because of any perceived danger, I just like the mono-hulls a LOT better.
Just my $0.02.
 
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#10 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I would prefer AC to be raced in a one design format. Everyone on the same style boat, same style sails, same number of people. They it would be a race about strategy and crew skills
 
#166 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I would prefer AC to be raced in a one design format. Everyone on the same style boat, same style sails, same number of people. They it would be a race about strategy and crew skills
If watching one-design racing is your thing, go down to your nearest sailing club, you'll probably see it there.

AC has for more than a century been at the cutting edge of sailing - this is not a club sport.

Personally, I can't wait to see these boats do battle. I have watched ETNZ and Luna Rosa sailing in our local harbor and it is breathtaking to see them sailing that fast that a 400hp chase boat can't catch them.

Bring it on!
 
#11 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Very sad that someone died.. time will tell how that ultimately affects the format and venue if this historical event.

I get the 'one design' angle.. it's true that the AC has never really been about the best sailor(s) and more about developmental design - both below and well above the waterline. Not a big fan of the cats either but I think if you went to pure one-design that this event becomes 'just another match race' and would lose whatever lustre it retains.

Still, tough day today....
 
#13 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I get the 'one design' angle.. it's true that the AC has never really been about the best sailor(s) and more about developmental design - both below and well above the waterline. .
I thought it was an international sailing competition where the country who can afford to hire the most Kiwis gets sailing bragging rights for 3 years.
 
#12 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I don't understand the title: "Another America's Cup entry destroyed" There was already a cup entry destroyed? Is Artemis renouncing to the cup?

What was destroyed was a boat and sadly an human life.

I agree with faster. AC is mainly about design development more than anything else. It has been always about that. There are other match races with one design boats. There is even a World Match racing tour that is a kind of world championship raced in identical boats.

Regarding boat and sail development I cannot remember any edition as exciting as this one, with the development of wing sails and foiling. Pure beauty those cats flying away.

 
#15 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Sad day for sure. But I think they are definitely on the right track with the multis and the new format. I watched the entire AC45 World Series. It was really great stuff.

These 72s are absolutely bleeding edge. Stuff like this is part of the game...unfortunately. I don't think they should pull away from this direction...but I do think they ought to bring the scale of the big boats down some. It shouldn't just be about the first boat to break or fall over. That said, they'll figure it out.
 
#16 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Just by the by - who are the designers of these things? I can't imagine that Farr, Peterson, Holland, Frers and all my other heroes are doing them.
 
#20 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Just by the by - who are the designers of these things? I can't imagine that Farr, Peterson, Holland, Frers and all my other heroes are doing them.
Very good designers obviously among the greatest contemporary NA: Artemis is designed by JK, Oracle has an huge design team and I don't understand who is the main NA.

Team

Luna Rossa and Team New Zealand are designed by Morrelli & Melvin

Regards

Paulo
 
#17 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

i'm divided. On one hand, I am extremely *PISSED* that a man, a olympic champion with a family no less, is dead. The billionaires that run this show (here's looking at you Ellison) will say some platitudes, but will NEVER do the honorable thing and cancel the event in order to figure out if they are putting other people at risk. After all, their egos must be salved. What ges me most is someone will inevitably stand up and say "We all have to go, and at least he died doing something he loved"....tell that to his kids and family in a decade or so when everyone has forgotten about the 2013 America's Cup and we're onto the next billionaire ego diversion.

On the other hand, pushing the boundaries of physics and engineering is what humans do. People have died in every endeavor...flight, rocketry, etc.

Still, I'm mostly angry that the only people that are left to pick up the pieces here are this man's family...for a blatant display of ego that this Americas Cup has become. The race is a joke...and I'm honestly not going to tune it. This was the last straw. Its been building, starting with the fragility of the Volvo boats and what that race has become too.
 
#18 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

To clarify, at the time of the original posting, a member of team Artemis was listed at the same URL as being in serious condition, not a fatality. The article has since been updated to reflect the loss of life which was not included in the initial reporting. The tragic loss is paramount here and I would not have posted the original thread had this outcome be known. Our thoughts are with the family and friends impacted by this tragedy.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

The tragic loss is paramount here and I would not have posted the original thread had this outcome be known. Our thoughts are with the family and friends impacted by this tragedy.
+1. My heart goes out to that family.

And I will also say this - knowing EXACTLY what these words mean - he died doing what he loved. There is a lot to be said for that. It does actually ease the pain somewhat.
 
#23 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

This spectacular possibility of catastrophe is likely to bring more spectators. Consider that this could have happened when racing next to a competitor and taken them out too.

I'm not good with it.
Yeah, it seems they've finally figured a way to try to take sailing Mainstream...

There's a reason why the two races NASCAR runs each season at Talladega are right up there with Daytona in terms of 'popularity'...

As we saw yet again last weekend, this is it:



This is particularly saddening to me, as I've always thought that the best thing that could happen in America to attract the general public's interest to sailing, and the America's Cup in particular, would be to have San Francisco Bay as the venue... There's not a more spectacular, or spectator-friendly sailing venue anywhere in the world...

The most spectacular sailing conditions the Cup has ever seen, was when the Doctor came calling off Freemantle... Watching those old videos of those boats racing in 25 knots or more, 5-6 foot seas, it was some awesome stuff... Only problem was, it was so far offshore, nobody could watch it other than on TV... SF Bay certainly has the potential to match those conditions, but with the added bonus of a gigantic natural amphitheater with one of the world's most beautiful cities and harbor as a backdrop, and the ability to set turning marks literally within a stone's throw of spectators on shore... I've shot a few Big Boat Series years ago in the Bay, the visuals are absolutely spectacular, everywhere you look, no venue could be better made for television...

Call me old-fashioned, but the remarkable history of America's Cup racing speaks Tradition, to me... the switch to multihulls is disappointing, but of course perhaps that's just me...
 
#24 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

My traditional heart yearns for the 12-meter days of the 50s and 60s, not least because I grew up around, and worked in, a boatyard that built two of the last wood 12s, both beautiful and faster than their records (Easterner and Nefertiti).

And my heart is with one-design racing in identical boats and rigs, I never enjoyed figuring out who owed who time. I wanted to know if I was faster right then, and what place I'm in right then. So one-designs and frostbiting in small identical dinghies against the best of the summer competition who couldn't outspend poor me, was the best winter (or anytime) fun.

That said, I think the Cup has always been the "space program" of sailing, where new designs and materials get dreamed up, tried out, and eventually (some of them) become mainstream. The risks in sailing are less than in the NASA space program, but the same attitude and outlook applies--the rewards are worth the risks, or they have been so far, in space. Now we have to see if they are too, in sailing.

Final idea. If I don't like the drag-race cats and wish they'd race boats that could actually tack, then that's good reason to continue on with the cats. I'm usually too much of a traditionalist and should not be listened to regarding "progress", including here.
 
#30 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Hate to say it but I agree with Paulo on this one. Purpose of a race is to go fast. Faster you go more races you win. Drives advances in design and materials. All to the good. However, as suggested in other threads and by earlier posts in this thread the AC and some other races at this level have increasingly less relevance to the average sailor. We are not likely to sail anything close to these boats and will likely remain in displacement or semidisplacement boats. We are unlikely to make use of rigid sails or hydrofoils. We may benefit from material advancements ( soft shackles, W+S hydro generators etc.) but it's gotten to the point when you watch the race you really don't know what's going on. In the "good old days" you could watch the AC and appreciate the tactitian,skipper, bowman etc. and relate to their decisions and skill. Now it's "oh wow look at that" which gets old fast.
 
#32 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Sorry when you have to equip everybody with crash helmets and emergency air bottles NOT a go IMHP

While not OD it has for the most part been a box rule of some type

The sport is supposed to a match racing game of who has better tactics and can control the race
 
#33 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

...
The sport is supposed to a match racing game of who has better tactics and can control the race
Then the boats should be exactly the same and obviously they are not.

That counts too but less than the design match, it is more of a design match than anything else.

On the last edition Oracle was so evidently superior in performance that Allinghy did not have any chance and for what I have saw the same will happen this year.

Did you saw the design team for Oracle? Have a look, they are more than the crew:D

Team

Regards

Paulo
 
#35 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

i like one design racing but this is not the venue for that, there is a few year old transition of coming up with the highest tech boat and a crew to sail it hard and smart trying to take home the cup. That does not need to change.

Catamarans, disposable, boats, wind limitations need to go away. You should get one boat and if it cant handle the winds and waves you are out.
 
#36 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

When the ACC class boats replaced the 12's, several of the participants complained that the design was too light and the boats were too fragile. I was then reminded of the old saw about how the perfect racing sailboat is one that is built just strongly enough to survive to the finish line. Light weight, big sails, wins races.

I doubt we'll ever see the days when the boats from the last Cup races compete again. Can you imagine any boat today repeating what Intrepid and Courageous did, winning the cup in consecutive campaigns? Those boats weren't just the fastest boats of their day, they were durable. You can still charter them today. Many of the boats we see racing for the Cup this year will likely be piles of scrap before the end of the competition, and none will be design-competative fifteen minutes after the last race.
 
#40 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I doubt we'll ever see the days when the boats from the last Cup races compete again. Can you imagine any boat today repeating what Intrepid and Courageous did, winning the cup in consecutive campaigns?
I want to go back the old days when you built the boat at home crewed it with people from your own country, sailed it to wherever the competition was taking place then sailed it back home.
 
#38 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I would like to see the AC go back to a competition between countries and not corporations. In recent years the idea that these are national boats is nonsense. It is one rich guy's company against another's with the key question being who can afford to buy the best Kiwi talent. Also the new developments have made it far too expensive for many countries, including NZ, to compete. Would be nice to see it go back to something cheaper and more national in character, not necessarily in 12s but something that did not look like a floating billboard. What about a rule that allowed monohulls to about 15 m with a course that required lots of course changes. Anything goes in terms of hydrofoils, wingsails, etc. Hope I am sounding curmudgeonly enough. BTW, I got to sail on an AC class boat in Auckland. They have a couple there for tourists and at certain times you can race. Sweet machines and awesome to steer but a lot of work. Four coffee grinders with eight admittedly out-of-shape tourists to pull the main up.
 
#41 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

I would like to see the AC go back to a competition between countries and not corporations. In recent years the idea that these are national boats is nonsense. It is one rich guy's company against another's with the key question being who can afford to buy the best Kiwi talent.
Never was national, except nominally. The field America beat to win the trophy that now bears its name were all yachts owned by wealthy Brits, aristocrats and industrialists; America was built entirely with funds from a NYYC syndicate -- ie, Hamptons money.

Look at the names peppering the race: Ashbury, Barr, Morgan, the Earl of Dunraven, Lipton, Vanderbilt, Rothschild, Turner.... Every boat has to fly a flag, and tying it to a nation gins up enthusiasm amongst the Great Unwashed. But for the most part the Cup was and is a pissing match for wealthy individuals & yacht clubs. Always using mercenaries and professionals for crew. Always trying to poach talent and ideas from other camps. It's corporate to the bone & always has been.
 
#39 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

But the most telling thing I heard while visiting the repair shop came from Coutts, the CEO. I asked him what would happen to the radical new wingsail design after the Cup was over. "No matter who wins," Coutts said, "they are definitely going to make changes: make the boat smaller, bring the team budgets down, stuff like that." In other words, the CEO of Team Oracle now acknowledges that the AC72 is an overreach.
Nuff said.
 
#44 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Its interesting how this accident has brought biases to the surface. Its clear there are lot of people that don't like the new AC boats or the format created for them, but the AC has always pushed the state of the art of boat design and the AC72's are definitely the leading edge of sail propelled craft. Also, its arguably the only thing keeping the AC alive, though there are no doubt those that would prefer to see it die rather than evolve.

There was little to no hue and cry over the boats or race format when many sailors were lost on the Farallon's or N2E (only the skipper/crews were vilified in those cases), or when VOR sailors have been lost. Some did express opposition to "cruise races" formats that resulted in the loss of Rule 62, but again it was mainly the skipper that bore the brunt of the sailing communities scorn.

For me, all these accidents and more at even lower levels or racing provide evidence of my assertion that sailing and especially racing, by its nature, is dangerous and sailors are occasionally killed participating at every level from club racing right up to the top. If you don't like the new AC boats, that's great, but don't fool yourself into thinking the new boat or format is more or less dangerous than any other. There just is no evidence to support that assertion at this point.

If you want old school mono-hull racing identical boats, there is the Congressional Cup, NYYC, One Design racing all over the country, etc.
 
#62 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

If you don't like the new AC boats, that's great, but don't fool yourself into thinking the new boat or format is more or less dangerous than any other. There just is no evidence to support that assertion at this point.
Seriously??? Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there, bigtime...

Until now, perhaps the most dramatic - and potentially tragic - catastrophe that occurred in modern AC racing was the sinking of ONE AUSTRALIA in the trials off San Diego... Watching this video, it appears to have happened in slow motion, compared to the suddenness and violence of the pitchpoling and capsizing of the cats we're seeing today:



Compare with what happens to some of the crew aboard Coutts' AC 45 last year:



Now, extrapolate that up to the size of an AC 72, with the potential for crew falling from a height of 50-60 feet, through the wing as Coutts himself did, or on top of part of the rig, or boat... If you watched any video of the aftermath of ORACLE's AC 72 capsize, the most terrifying aspect is the manner in which the rig gave way, and the hulls folded over on top of the whole affair... All those guys dangling from the netting in such a situation, could be immediately pinned underneath it all... From the accounts and pictures I've seen, that appears to be pretty much what happened to ARTEMIS this week...

But what frightens me most about these boats, is the fact that the remarkable speeds they're achieving - unlike a Formula 1 car, for example - does not appear to be matched by their nimbleness, or maneuverability... Something goes wrong, if a wing can't be eased quickly enough, or whatever, the ability of the helmsman to control the boat can essentially vanish... Watch this, keeping in mind these are among the best sailors on the planet:



At the speeds these 72-footers will be crossing tacks, closing speeds potentially in the range of 60-70 knots, that sort of mistake does not even bear thinking about...
 
#45 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

Its important to keep this in mind. It's their event, they can race whatever they want and make whatever rules they want. Much of our discussion is like criticizing two sailors that leave the marina to race each other and suggest we know better.

However, in the context of whether the race can or will attract spectators or make money, its entirely fair game. I do not think that risking their lives on fragile boats or creating a NASCAR style anticipation is acceptable. National pride would be a much better reason to draw spectators. While it never was national, the mystique of Stars and Stripes certainly felt national in Dennis Connor's day and he often raised money from several, albeit mega-wealthy, sponsors. It wasn't just one guy with all the money. That said, I believe he was also the guy that turned the corner to full-time year-round paid crew.

So, they can do whatever they want. They can't risk others lives for their own amusement or to attract money from spectators.
 
#46 · (Edited)
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

It's their event... attract money from spectators.
I think that that is the biggest problem with this particular edition: Not attractive to sponsors and probably not self sustained without billionaires money.

The boats and the development are just too expensive to make this event a commercially attractive one. It is possible that Artemis will have not the money to recover from the loss of a boat but even if they continue only with one boat they will not stand a chance to have the money to continue development at the same level of Oracle, not even close.

Several teams that started the way to the AC had given up for lack of sustainability in what regards sponsorship.

Yes, I agree with Palmetto that the AC should be the top in sailing research in what regards racing boats and I don't like the level of conservatism on this forum where most people don't follow or like sail races but when they express an opinion about the biggest sail racing event they suggest it should be raced in good old designed boats.

The AC has to be a success not only in what regards sailing development but also in what regards commercial success and sustainability. They should not look to the stock cars races as a model, but to F1.

Extreme sports are dangerous and sailing at the limit is as dangerous as any other. Sure the risks should be limited but if they are not doing it in an extreme way and were using older safer, slower boats, then they would not be at the edge of sailing and that is what AC is all about.

I don't think it is their event, it is the biggest sailing event and it belongs to all that love sail racing.

Regards

Paulo
 
#47 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

No one has a gun to their head or family hostage when they sign on to do a AC race. They go into it fully cognizent of the risks involved. Yes it is a platform for development. However, it remains a coastal race without the glamor, long term physical, and psychological demands of the long distance ocean races. It similarly lacks the ability to engage most sailors emotionally ( same issue basketball now faces for similar reasons hard to personally identify with giants playing game nothing like what you did as a kid. With AC can't identify with the boats, nature of sailing or skill set). Also it doesn't engage the general public anymore. Had opportunity to watch the races off R.I and Coronado. Like to watch F1 but NASCAR not so much. Watching the boarders and hydroplaners go for a speed record is a kick but you know from the start it's out there and a different world from yours. Will take a pass on AC and just watch the "highlights"
 
#57 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

The American football analogy is a good one. There have been many improvements to safety as the years go by, or the owners would eventually assume too much liability. Even the concussion issues lately will be addressed.

AC sailing is clearly going the other direction. The risk associated with the 72 cats is obviously much greater than the 12m.
 
#92 ·
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed

The American football analogy is a good one. There have been many improvements to safety as the years go by, or the owners would eventually assume too much liability. Even the concussion issues lately will be addressed.

AC sailing is clearly going the other direction. The risk associated with the 72 cats is obviously much greater than the 12m.
Agreed. But it takes the concussion incidents, or Earnharts death in NASCAR, to bring attention to make the safety changes which they can make.

There is nothing more dangerous than professional bike racing. Look at the Tour de France. Hurtling down a 15% grade 13000 ft mountain at speeds in excess of 75 mph on super pressurized 3cm tires on Regular roads with only a helmet on.

There is only so much safety you can really bring into bike racing....or AC racing without ruining it. It's the athletes choice wether to assume that risk.
 
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