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What Is A Boat Really Worth?

40K views 272 replies 53 participants last post by  Ajax_MD 
#1 ·
In our "continuing education" we've learned yet another valuable lesson. Owners and brokers have a very different idea of the value of a boat than lenders and surveyors. And in more cases than not, the latter has a value sometimes approaching 40% or more less than asking price.

We saw this but getting the information direct from the horse's mouth confirmed it. And with a little more hunting we've found selling prices are more in line with lender values.

If you're a cash buyer, you can pay anything you want for a boat. If you're a seller, you can ask anything you want for your boat. If you're a broker, you're hoping both the above will get together and complete the sale.

But once you get lenders and surveyors into the mix, things change and it's usually the seller who's not happy. At least that's what we're learning in conversations with lenders and surveyors we've had recently.

I suppose inflated asking prices are due in part because there is no system in place where brokers take known sale figures and advise the prospective seller what a good number would be if they want to sell their boat reasonably soon like they often do in real estate. Maybe that's why the average boat is on the market almost a year before it sells.

In a nut shell, what the lenders and surveyors have said is the value of a boat continues to decline as it ages until eventually it has no value to the lender. If a boat is valued at 25% its original asking price, the upgrades an owner does will be depreciated at pretty much the same amount. They could also have no value to the lender. So a $20K repower may only be worth $5K to the lender, even right after work is completed. On older boats it may have no value at all.

One lender said if the owner wants to pour money into improving the condition of their boat, that's fine, just don't believe it will automatically increase the value of your boat. At least not in the lender's eyes. They are only concerned with actual value in a given market, as in "If the borrower defaults, what price do we need to be at to sell the boat in a reasonable amount of time?" They don't get emotionally involved. It's strictly numbers and they know them well.

Surveyors may attach value to major upgrades but the overall value seems to be more in line with the lender's value estimates.

The more we learned, the more I realized the saying, "A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money" is not just a saying. It's a fact. And that fact may be why so many boats fall into disrepair. The love is gone and there's no financial advantage to keeping the boat up. Just dump it as fast as you can.

When we started our search 6-8 weeks ago, I was gathering values from BoatUS and NADA for boats we were interested in. One boat was valued dramatically lower by NADA than BoatUS. I told the broker that. He said BoatUS had more realistic prices because they also do lending. It made sense so I started using BoatUS values to determine the real value of boats in the hunt.

Recent conversations with lenders proved just the opposite. All lenders we talked to said they use NADA prices to value boats. And the surveyors tended to agree with the lenders regarding boat value. Seldom did either agree with the seller value. Still, there are exceptions.

So who is right?

If you're obtaining a loan and you aren't willing or able to come up with a down payment that will bridge the gap between owner/broker perceived value and lender value, you have no other choice than to move on if the seller won't come down to lender value.

If you have the cash, you can pay whatever you want.
 
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#49 ·
If/when you place an offer, point out the lack of improvements as justification for your offer.

Also remember that most improvements do not add to the cash value of the boat. If done properly, they will enhance its attractiveness for a faster sale, but they'll rarely increase its price. (But it's fine for you to claim they do as part of your negotiation - it's all "part of the game.") When shopping for boats, I found more than a few cases where an "improvement" was poorly done and detracted from the boat's value. In a couple cases they were total deal breakers, because the botched jobs could not be undone.

I think some people here have lost patience because your purchase process has taken longer than they would like. You need to proceed at the pace that's right for you. You have missed out on a couple sailing seasons, but if that's what you need to be comfortable, so be it. It's not productive of those people to take out their frustration on you up here, but that's the nature of Internet message boards. Don't let yourself get drawn into an off-topic argument.
 
#50 ·
I can't say a lot of how I think this will go because that would require me to put words in the broker's mouth. But, if I was the broker, I'd take the information we provided the broker to the owner and let the owner know he has buyers now who are serious but they know what's on the market and his boat is considerably overpriced. (We showed him comps and let him know we're aware of the costs of putting this boat on the same playing field as the others.) If the owner stands firm, then he'll have to wait for someone who buys solely on emotion and wants to pay cash.

There was a boat owner across the way who came over saying he wanted to move up. He was in and out in a few minutes. Probably because of all that he'd have to put into the boat if he wanted the same creature comforts he now has. Or maybe he just didn't like it. Or maybe it was too darn hot!

Taking in the condition of this boat, I didn't have any major issues, from what I could see from an in-water inspection. It's far from perfect but I never expected perfect. But it's ready to sail now (I think!), we'd just have to lug a few 50# blocks of ice to the boat or bring a cooler if we wanted cold drinks. And what sailor doesn't want cold drinks? :cool:

There are a few unanswered questions, like why was the shore power cord laid out, plugged into the dock, but not the boat? Is there a short somewhere? And I have to find the source of water stains on the upper cabin walls. Why so much oil in the bilge? And some other things on the list we made while there.

But the deck had virtually no crazing. The hull (above the waterline) looked in good shape. The rod rigging looked fine, as did the turnbuckles. But the hatches were failing and two were cracked. Fixed ports showed no evidence of leaking but the plexiglass was seriously crazed.

It wasn't the best day to thoroughly inspect a boat. It was 95 outside and about 110 inside, even after we opened all hatches and ports. I kept having to go up top to cool down and didn't do as thorough an inspection as I would have liked. I got plenty of pictures but still missed the stuffing box and a number of storage areas. I also didn't check to see if the boat had a freshwater pump. There was a number of other things I didn't check but it was so hot, spending any time below was torture.

We'll see how it goes. We're still planning on making the trip east. A friend of ours in CT is expecting us, regardless of if we find a boat locally or not. But if the buyer really wants to sell and recognizes what other boats are offering, he might feel a price adjustment is in order. I'd rather approach it that way than throw a number at him before he's nudged to seriously look at other E38s on the market and compares apples to apples, to whatever degree that's possible.
 
#51 ·
And then there are the two close to me. One 10 minutes the other 1/2 hour. If you like them and are enamored/ serious this is the model let me know if/ when you want me to do a quick look at them

Dave
 
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#52 ·
This is a good thread about what boats are worth, how to get a good deal etc. That's all useful stuff..and plenty of good advice.

We started cruising in 1987 and have gone through a succession of 5 different boats. Every one was what we thought was the right boat for us at the time.

But for us, somehow boat purchases are different than a house, a car, or other large purchase. Boats are fun. Boats are not sensible financially. We needed to fall in love with the boat. We needed to like the seller. When selling, we needed to like the buyer or we wouldn't want them to take possession of our boat! Years after selling a boat, I often get calls from the new owner asking a question about something. I like those calls.

Yea, the price needs to be fair, but since we need to like the seller, we aren't working on a win-lose deal. The end result, is we end up with lots of sailing friends.

So for what it's worth, you aren't buying a boat. You're buying a dream. Every aspect can be fun including buying and selling.

So our advice is find a fair deal on a good boat owned by good people who take pride in their boat.
 
#54 ·
worth depends on your use of and for it--is it yur home--worth more than a toy is, but, then.....
value is what that boat will sell for on open market, which is still tanked--is also what you will pay for that boat you so want.
subjective . different to everyone. nada and surveyors are still keyed into the old market, where it wasnt so bad... good luck. try ebay and craigs list for alleged deals, but beware of scammers .....
 
#55 ·
I am NO expert on rigging, only speaking on behalf of a good friend who has a C&C Landfall with Rod Rigging (RR), don't buy a boat with rod rigging if it could need replacement anytime soon. He has had a heck of a time finding someone who will even deal with RR in the Annapolis area. Just say'in, do some research on RR before you buy a boat with it. It last but much more costly.
 
#56 ·
If you really like the boat, come up with your own value for the boat as if in the shape you'd like. Then list the deficiencies and cost per. Total and adjust original swag. Make an offer 15-20% below that.

Most brokers will push the seller to accept a reasonable offer. If negotiable they will counter. It also shows you're serious.

Just my 2cents
:)
 
#58 ·
Julie-
"And we really like this broker and he agreed to represent us no matter who we buy from. " You're contracting with a buyer's broker?? Really? It isn't enough to know that you'll already be paying the seller's broker, you need to have two of them in the middle?

What chef said about rod rigging can be right, you can't just look at it to tell if it has aged, and it DOES age. You need a rigger, not a general surveyor, who can examine the rods ends up close and tell if they are distorted or cracked, and whether they can be reheaded. That can be hard to find, or easy, depending on whether NavTec is picking up the phone and telling you where the local dealer may be. Either way, all standing rigging ages and needs a competent inspection and replacement from time to time.
 
#59 ·
Julie,

Just go buy a boat & have fun. Summer will be over before you know it & you like the rest of us aren't getting any younger :)

You've been around boats most of your life so you already know owning a boat is about the joy, pleasures & sometimes heart aches that money can't buy.

Money is just something you need in case you don't die today.
 
#61 ·
JulieMor said:
I realize it costs nothing to make an offer but would you make an offer on a boat that is priced $10K+ more than boats that, compared to this one, are loaded to the gills? It makes no sense to enter into a sales contract that is not only is listed $10K+ more but that would cost about another $10K to bring up to snuff with the other boats. Not when there's other boats you could buy and save that $20K.
Sure I would. If I was sure about wanting that type of boat I would make the offer that was comfortable for me taking all into account. I have done it a few times.

JulieMor said:
What I was suggesting is since the broker almost certainly told the seller he was going to show the boat, and since the seller will most certainly ask the broker how it went, the broker might inform the seller his boat is overpriced, compared to what's on the market today. What the seller does from there is his business. It's not my job to show him the light.
You'll show him how to negotiate! Got it!

JulieMor said:
If for some reason our trip east has us coming back empty handed, and the seller of the first E38 we looked at has adjusted his price, we might go back and make an offer. But we aren't going to enter into the offer phase on that boat when we still have many other boats we want to see, and all are better equipped.

It been said time and time again here, "Buy a boat that has everything you want on it, or as close to that as you can get, so you can enjoy sailing rather than pouring money into her and being stuck in the harbor fixing her up." That, to me, is excellent advice. I plan to keep my focus in that direction.

But as far as the E38-200, I really like the design, the layout and what I could glean about the build quality. The SO? Not sold like me. We'll be seeing other type boat. :rolleyes:
That is all great. Course it's the reason why the seller of the local boat wouldn't be taking you seriously at this point.

When you have looked around some more you might decide that a local fresh water boat that is located where you want to boat has some value at some price. Or you may not. This isn't something that you have to decide right away. There will always be water. Get that spreadsheet out!
 
#62 ·
At the risk of repeating myself.... No, I've already done that too many times. I guess you guys will have to trust that I'm capable of taking what I learn and applying it intelligently.

And while some will make an offer on a boat they have never seen, I'm not one of those people. Thus the planned trip east.

To all those who have a boat, what the heck are you doing here? Go enjoy it!
 
#65 ·
I think the price of boats is all over the place for a reason. The quality of a boat is based on the model, age updatedness and additions. I look at the boat type as like a neighborhood. If you live within a mile of the beach in Socal you will pay 750k for a shack, 3 million for a shack on the water, crack neighborhood houses may be 200k. In the right neighborhood you can buy a home for 300k and put 100k into it and walk away with a 500k home. You can buy a 20k boat and pour the same 100k into it and be happy to get 60k for it.

No one is going to buy a million dollar home in a crack neighborhood and the bank won't loan the money for that home. If a basic 40 year old cruiser has a radar, watermaker, new rigging, motor and sails it can realistically be worth 60k but the bank does not want to loan you that much for it.
 
#66 ·
Julie,

Here is the bottom line on buying a used boat....

CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION!!!!!!

Be willing to pay a premium for it and it will be the best money you ever spent.. I see people over focus on purchase price way to much when the real focus should be condition. No matter what the boat in the best condition IS ALWAYS the best value even if you pay a large premium for it..

Boats that sit on the market for long periods of time are usually there for one reason POOR CONDITION. Though sometimes owners just list them to satisfy a spouse and the asking price is reflective of that.

Boats that sit are not usually a value and wind up costing multiples more than a boat in tip to condition. Sometimes they sit because they are an odd-ball one off.

Boats maintained in tip top shape, or what I call "2 percenters", (the top 2% of boats) often sell in hours or days for top value but this is still a steal! I know this is tough to grasp but it is the truth. There are always buyers who know boats and only want that pristine well maintained immaculate vessel because they know it is a steal and tremendous value even at a solid premium.

I have a customer with cash trying to buy a boat right now and he has looked at over 60 boats, all JUNK. There is just too much poorly maintained junk on the market. He is willing to pay well over Soldboats.com avg because he knows that when he finds it, this boat it will represent a bargain over the same sister-ship that sells at the bottom or middle of the heap.

Tim R. sold hi beautiful Ericson with one mention of it being for sale on here on Sailnet in a forum post. This beautiful boat never even hit the market, he did not pay a broker and it sold quickly. He disclosed any issues and the boat was a true gem and a great value even if it sold at the high end of the range. Tim's replacement boat, a Caliber 40 LRC, was also purchased without it ever hitting the public market. It too is a 2 percenter.... Good boats move, bad boats sit.... Really good boats often never hit the brokerage market.

One customer went for the least expensive of his preferred model that he could find, a HUGE mistake that I see novice buyers make ALL THE TIME..

The one I tried to talk him into, same model, two years newer and it had a re-built engine, new sails, new canvas, re-wired, brand new electronics (three months old including radar), Espar heat, high output alternator, new interior cushions & foam, recent cockpit cushions, windlass, beautifully shiny gelcoat, new standing rigging and all bright work professionally stripped and re-finished. This done in preparation just for selling it. Boat was owned by a wealthy couple with a fat check book who used one of the best yards in the area. Deck hardware had also been recently re-bedded and it had bone dry decks.. The bottom had been fully stripped and barrier coated three years prior. You could eat out of the bilge. The price "premium" for all this was going to cost him 6K more upfront. Just 6K more..... Doh'......

He opted for the beater "value boat" at an agreed price of 28k and now has approx 75K into a boat that is still worth maybe 32-34k on a good day... Very, very, very poor decision. This is a net loss to him, over the other boat, of nearly 50k. His mistake was that he got caught up in the "purchase price" and refused to acknowledge the "value" the other boat represented and he "felt" the other sellers were just being greedy selling at the top of the market for that boat. They were not greedy at all they just knew what they had.. His boat is still not anywhere as nice as the one he did not buy and I doubt if it ever could or will be.

He kicks himself every day, especially the days I am billing him for to fix everything on his boat that was "deferred maintenance"... I also work for the guy who bought the good one, a seasoned sailor and a very smart buyer. He did not even dicker on price other than about $500.00. He knew what this boat represented and did not want to lose it. This 2 percenter was also a private sale and never hit the open market.. The boat has needed very, very little work. A few hundred dollars, that's it. He saved 6k only to spend an additional 50k +/-...........:eek:

My personal opinion is that bottom line price should never, ever be the #1 determining factor when buying a used sailboat though it very, very often is. When it is it almost ALWAYS cost more in the long run..

CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION!!!!!! Try to think and project out what will your total cost be three to four years from now. This type of thought process should always be a strong consideration.

Course in my professional opinion, please buy the beaters it keeps me working....;)
 
#70 · (Edited)
Maine - generally I agree with you. I followed this advice and focused on condition over price. However, you are absolutely right that it's extremely difficult as a new buyer to NOT focus on price over condition - thinking that initial $6K savings for a beater is worth it. It's just too tempting. What kept me focused was remembering the fact that I like to sail - I do not like to work on boats. Period.

However, in this market, you don't necessarily need to pay a premium for good condition. The pressure of SO many boats being on the market gives the buyer quite a bit of power. The problem is that many buyers won't even try to bring those premium prices down. I'm proof that it can be done.

So, a few of your statements I don't think are quite on. For example, this:

Boats maintained in tip top shape, or what I call "2 percenters", (the top 2% of boats) often sell in hours or days for top value but this is still a steal! I know this is tough to grasp but it is the truth. There are always buyers who know boats and only want that pristine well maintained immaculate vessel because they know it is a steal and tremendous value even at a solid premium.

I have a customer with cash trying to buy a boat right now and he has looked at over 60 boats, all JUNK. There is just too much poorly maintained junk on the market. He is willing to pay well over Soldboats.com avg because he knows that when he finds it, this boat it will represent a bargain over the same sister-ship that sells at the bottom or middle of the heap.
I think as a buyer if you're immediately willing to "pay well over Soldboats.com avg" for a well-maintained boat, you're making a mistake. Again, in this market, you have WAY more leverage than that as a buyer. You should absolutely use it.

As I mentioned in the write up of my boat. NADA valued my very-well maintained and equipped H40 at $55K (without having the all the boat's actual equipment in that price). $55K was the asking price. Furthermore, there were other very well-maintained and equipped H40s on the market for $65K-$90K.

I ended up paying $42K for my boat. And it was virtually ready to sail away. Even so, I am choosing to put some significant work into it (e.g. - new standing rigging) to bring it up to my standards - but I used that and everything else I could possibly find for strength in negotiating.

So, let's say that those boats in the $65K-$90K range were in even better shape. Would an additional $23K-$48K been a "bargain"?

No.

All-in, I will likely have about $55K into my boat with the standing-rigging and other repairs and upgrades I'm making. This puts my boat's "value" right at the NADA value and still below the surveyor-appraised value.

This is precisely where I wanted to be.

One customer went for the least expensive of his preferred model that he could find, a HUGE mistake that I see novice buyers make ALL THE TIME..

The one I tried to talk him into, same model, two years newer and it had a re-built engine, new sails, new canvas, re-wired, brand new electronics (three months old including radar), Espar heat, high output alternator, new interior cushions & foam, recent cockpit cushions, windlass, beautifully shiny gelcoat, new standing rigging and all bright work professionally stripped and re-finished. This done in preparation just for selling it. Boat was owned by a wealthy couple with a fat check book who used one of the best yards in the area. Deck hardware had also been recently re-bedded and it had bone dry decks.. The bottom had been fully stripped and barrier coated three years prior. You could eat out of the bilge. The price "premium" for all this was going to cost him 6K more upfront. Just 6K more..... Doh'......

He opted for the beater "value boat" at an agreed price of 28k and now has approx 75K into a boat that is still worth maybe 32-34k on a good day... Very, very, very poor decision. This is a net loss to him, over the other boat, of nearly 50k. His mistake was that he got caught up in the "purchase price" and refused to acknowledge the "value" the other boat represented and he "felt" the other sellers were just being greedy selling at the top of the market for that boat. They were not greedy at all they just knew what they had.. His boat is still not anywhere as nice as the one he did not buy and I doubt if it ever could or will be.
Your scenario works very well for boats that are typically passed around within a sailing community. As you say, people generally know each other and the boats and would rather do business that way. However, that's pretty rare for newer boat buyers.

We are not yet part of that kind of community - so we have to look around. Yachtworld was my addiction for 3 years. The key to doing well there is to set a strict budget, have that money ready, and WAIT. The right boat will come along, but it might take a couple of years.

As for the guy that paid $28K for a boat, then put in another $75K???? I'd say there was nothing smart about that purchase or the work he's done thereafter. That's insane. Unless that boat was ready for the chainsaw it's a stretch to think about how someone could dump that much money into an already floating boat.

What in the world took that much money? And why didn't he sue the surveyor?
 
#67 · (Edited)
IMHO,
Every boat is worth exactly ZERO. Unless someone wants wants to buy it. Then it is worth the agreed upon price of those PEOPLE. Without people, nothing has any (monetary) value. So lets consider people. Someone with a lifelong dream to buy a sailboat and go cruising and can now do just that because of money or work reasons, will pay more than someone with a passing interest. If that same person with the dream was diagnosed with an illness that will render them disabled in 5 years, they will now pay even more because of the time constraints. On the sell side, someone that put a great deal of love and work into a boat and is emotionally attached to it will likely believe that his boat is worth much more than compatible boats because it has been so well cared for and loved. On the flip side, a widow that just lost her husband because he fell overboard from the boat that she always hated because it made her seasick and cost too much to maintain, may sell it for 10% of it's NADA value because "I never want to see that d*mn boat again!"
In the end it's about the people on the buy side and the sell side and the motives that drive them.
How much is a certain boat worth to you and how long are you willing to search for it at your decided on price? Will you wait 20-30 years searching for the widow with an unwanted boat?

Best wishes to you in your search.
 
#68 ·
I don't mind buying boats that need clean up and work. But huge BUT I'm going to pay way less for that boat. Like $75000 to $100000 off in our last boat. Plus i dont have a $100000 lol. I like the stuff I want to put on the boat not the "new" 3-7 year old stuff sellers call "new". Plus the boat we got hasn't been "improved" by a bunch of PO's. Not much electronics but not any butchered up wiring and holes either. Look for a dry interior and solid boat the rest is just bonus stuff if you like what's on it. Take what a reasonable person would offer then go lower. The season is getting short already, soon owners will be getting winter storage contracts in the mail. The market seems to still be slow but boats are moving. This is not broker BS but from the trucker who moved our boat. He's busy and so were the others I got quotes from.
 
#71 ·
When Maine refers to "2%'ers" I think he is referring to those rare boats out there that are pristine - in new or better than new condition.

In those case, a "bargain" price would be better compared to a new boat price rather than the used market range for the same or similar boats.

If you use that perspective it's easy to see a relatively expensive boat as a bargain. Buying what amounts to a new boat for say 60% of the new price compared to paying say 30% of new for a typical, well used boat that requires a significant investment for the "usual" upgrades can be an astute purchase.
 
#73 ·
I think the inconsistencies in price are due in large part to the number of brokers who list a boat at whatever the seller asks so they can get the listing. Then those numbers get posted on YW or SL and act as a barometer for future sellers to use to price their boat. It's self perpetuating.

Some brokers guide the seller and help them reach a realistic price, one based more on recent sold prices than recent listing prices. And a seller taking that advice will probably sell the boat faster than average.

In real estate, I've seen realtors run from homeowners who have unrealistic expectations about the value of their home. Those who take the listing anyway will put on a show then suggest a price drop if there's no nibbles. And they keep doing that until the home sells.

All selling agents, regardless of the commodity, want to sell because that's how they get paid. Buyer, seller, it doesn't matter, their real loyalty is to themselves and that means getting things sold so they can make a living. So it benefits them to get the seller to lower the price if too high and try to guide a buyer into the deal. But they won't put a lot of time into a boat they feel is overpriced, not when they can sell another boat to that buyer.

$10K may be a lot to the seller but is only $500 to the selling agent, unless he is also the broker, then he keeps the whole $1,000. But if you can make $2K now or $2.5K who-knows-when, you'll take the $2K now and move on to the next prospect.

That's why I'm surprised you don't see more price drops in boat listings. A boat that's sitting for 6 months that has had no price drops means either the broker forgot about it or the seller won't budge. This process isn't just about serious buyers, it's also about serious sellers. And, of course, supply and demand.
 
#77 ·
I think the inconsistencies in price are due in large part to the number of brokers who list a boat at whatever the seller asks so they can get the listing. Then those numbers get posted on YW or SL and act as a barometer for future sellers to use to price their boat. It's self perpetuating.

Some brokers guide the seller and help them reach a realistic price, one based more on recent sold prices than recent listing prices. And a seller taking that advice will probably sell the boat faster than average.

In real estate, I've seen realtors run from homeowners who have unrealistic expectations about the value of their home. Those who take the listing anyway will put on a show then suggest a price drop if there's no nibbles. And they keep doing that until the home sells.

All selling agents, regardless of the commodity, want to sell because that's how they get paid. Buyer, seller, it doesn't matter, their real loyalty is to themselves and that means getting things sold so they can make a living. So it benefits them to get the seller to lower the price if too high and try to guide a buyer into the deal. But they won't put a lot of time into a boat they feel is overpriced, not when they can sell another boat to that buyer.

$10K may be a lot to the seller but is only $500 to the selling agent, unless he is also the broker, then he keeps the whole $1,000. But if you can make $2K now or $2.5K who-knows-when, you'll take the $2K now and move on to the next prospect.

That's why I'm surprised you don't see more price drops in boat listings. A boat that's sitting for 6 months that has had no price drops means either the broker forgot about it or the seller won't budge. This process isn't just about serious buyers, it's also about serious sellers. And, of course, supply and demand.
A correction, the broker generally receives 50% of what he/she brings in so the $ 500 or the $1,000 would actually be worth half of that to the individual broker.

Interesting that some believe that brokers have little influence when advising an owner about what to ask but have great power when it comes to persuading that same owner on what to take. Neither is particularly accurate.

The reality is that there will always be sellers who want what they want. Should a broker turn that listing down? Maybe sometimes they should as they run the risk of wasting time and money marketing something that is not realistically for sale. OTOH, the broker will receive inquiry on the ad which may mean selling something else. Business decision.

Reputable listing brokers are all about selling the boat and getting the seller the maximum. That is their job and also their fiduciary duty. The latter is a legality that is often overlooked in these discussions. Do some research on Agency Law and you will see what I mean. Remember that legally brokers are generally considered agents not salesmen. Different thing entirely.

As part of getting the seller the maximum, the broker has the responsibility to educate the seller on the current market. If the seller's idea of what the maximum is differs from what the broker believes it to be then the broker makes the case and the seller, not the broker, decides what the price will be.

BTW, recommending a listing price is a lot more complicated then looking at a list of boats on YW. There are many other factors to consider.

At the end of the day the market consists of Sellers, Buyers and Brokers of widely differing knowledge, motivation and ethics. Making sweeping generalities about it is pretty much useless.
 
#75 ·
Bareboat charter on Lake Washington tomorrow. Can't wait!
 
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#76 ·
Current data on sailboat sales is hard to find. One source listed current time on market to sell a sailboat as 303 days. It also noted that sailboat sales was largely dominated by used boat sales. 8 out 10 sailboat sold, pre-enjoyed. And, finally that the total number of sailboats sold, relative to powerboats was very small.

Even if the data is stale, the message to sailboat owners is clear- love the one you are with, because it is going to take time, and effort, and money to move on.
 
#81 · (Edited)
So a $20K repower may only be worth $5K to the lender, even right after work is completed. On older boats it may have no value at all. .
I think it is worse than that.
My saying is that buying a boat is the most efficient way to convert dollars into dimes.
A brand new Catalina 309 out the door ready to sale costs about 120,000
A 1985 Catalina 30 costs about 12,000.
If you put a new motor in your 1985 boat that costs 15,000 with new tanks, prop, shaft, cutlass etc you 1985 boat might boat might be worth 20,000 if everything else is clean.

Not dollars to quarters, dollars to dimes.

Now the really scary thing is if you live in a sales tax state like ct you have to pay 6%+ tax. If you buy the boat keep it for a year then decide to sell you have to pay the broker.
You pay 100k for the boat 6k for tax and 10k to the broker to sell.
If you sell it for what you paid for it your 100k is now 84k.

But you almost certainly will have put some money into the boat the first year. Also you probably will not get exactly what you paid as the boat is one year older so a 20% loss in principle is pretty much a minimum.

So you better keep the boat you buy for a long time.
 
#82 ·
I once sold cars for 6 weeks - shortly after I graduated from college and was looking for my 1st 'real' job. I'll never forget one of the tactics this Toyota dealership instructed us on and expected us to do.

If a customer came in and said they wanted to look at Camries, we would immediately ask what their monthly budget for a payment was. Typically they would say something like $250 or $300 month (or whatever). We would then walk the customer over to the Corollas and start telling them the features of the Corollas.

The customer would then say something like "I'm sorry, I said I was interested in a Camry". We were instructed to look the customer in the eye and say something along the lines of "At $250/month you can't afford a Camry, that is why I was showing you a Corolla...if you really want a Camry, you need to get your thinking up."

The whole idea was to obliterate what the customer was expecting to pay for a car and to raise the bar to what the dealership was expecting them to pay for a car. I think many sailboat owners and brokers want to set their starting point of the negotiating bar as high as they can. Additionally, many sailboat owners have an emotional attachment to their boats that gets reflected in their asking price.

Over time if a boat is overpriced and does not sell, the seller has a white elephant on their hands and begins to understand that they need to adjust down.

The reason that I brought up the car tactic is that it can work both ways. An informed potential buyer can bluntly let a boat owner know that they need to 'get their thinking down'. When an owner or broker shows you the boat and asks "What do you think?" there is nothing wrong with saying something along the lines of "Well, I looked at another boat of the same model and year as this one last week that had sails that were replaced 3 years ago and had less than 1,000 hours on the engine that was $15K less than your asking price."

On a side note...looking at listings on Yachtworld, I am continually amazed at the number of boats for sale that have pictures with clutter all over the boat they are trying to sell. Does it not dawn on these sellers that prior to putting the boat listing up and taking the photos that will serve as a window to potential buyers that maybe they should take a day or two and remove all the crap that they have been storing in their boats?? As a potential buyer that not only makes me think that they have neglected their boats but that the boat probably has not been actually sailed in quite a while because the minute they had any kind of breeze and the boat heeled to any degree, all that crap would be getting tossed around the inside of the cabin.
 
#83 ·
On a side note...looking at listings on Yachtworld, I am continually amazed at the number of boats for sale that have pictures with clutter all over the boat they are trying to sell. Does it not dawn on these sellers that prior to putting the boat listing up and taking the photos that will serve as a window to potential buyers that maybe they should take a day or two and remove all the crap that they have been storing in their boats?? As a potential buyer that not only makes me think that they have neglected their boats but that the boat probably has not been actually sailed in quite a while because the minute they had any kind of breeze and the boat heeled to any degree, all that crap would be getting tossed around the inside of the cabin.
That's the one that gets me too - I can't believe they don't even sweep it out of the cameras frame. Clueless or just lazy?

I once saw a project boat with pics like that but they used humour - "Full sink" was the caption for the galley shot and it was indeed full - of dirty dishes.
 
#85 ·
We had three offers on our home in 6 business days after we put it on the market ourseleves FSBO

Everyone commented how nice the house showed, including things mechanical like a new HVAC unit.

We got more than our asking price.

Why don't more people prep their boats for sale properly....that could be a whole other thread, I suspect more often than not...they don't want to deal with the thought of selling the dream
 
#86 ·
Shawn, you may have it partly right, and it may also have to do with the fact that some people are just utterly clueless about cleanliness. About five years ago some friends and I were out on a boat near Galveston, a couple we had met near Kemah earlier in the day showed up and invited us aboard to see their boat, I was shocked, I mean literally shocked. They had one of those 50+ foot ketches with pretty much everything on it, and it was an absolute pigsty. They had that huge boat and had to move things off the settee for me and my gf to be able to sit down. We declined an invitation to dine with them that evening for very obvious reasons.

If I were a commissioned sales representative I would have to tell them that I could not represent the boat if it was not clean and in squared away condition as far as the things left on board. I mean poor sales guy has to go on the boat and move the junk to take the photos, and obviously some of them move nothing. I know all about restoration projects that got abandoned half way through, and other things that leave a big mess, but a boat that sold new for $200K or better and is only eight years old should not look like a garbage disposal ate a laundry hamper and aisle 7 at West Marine and then puked it up in the boat.
 
#87 ·
I wonder why the boat ownership thing is so important? With as little as most folks sail their own boats, wouldn't it be better economically, time wise, maintenance wise to join a sailing club or charter group and just pay for the days you use the boat? I see the same sailors here lamenting the "supposed" high cost of ownership, the poorly maintained boats they are looking at, over priced and the indifference of brokers to their needs.

With many future owners living/sailing in short season sailing locations I wonder if the rental/lease/charter/sailing club is a better way to go?
 
#88 ·
...wouldn't it be better economically, time wise, maintenance wise to join a sailing club or charter group and just pay for the days you use the boat?
For some people, yes. And a lot of people do that.

Others want to have their boat available anytime, and like the idea that it is just theirs--no on else is messing it up, or using it this weekend when they want it.

Of course, there are a lot of people who are just in love with the IDEA of owning a boat. It's a dream. They get the boat and reality sets in. They use it a lot the first year. Less the second. Hardly at all the third. And then the boat just sits, completely unused, for the next several years until they decide to sell it.

That's one reason so many of the "for sale" pictures you see are several years old, and why the owner often has no clue what condition his boat is in. He hasn't set foot on it in three years or more!
 
#89 ·
Those boats with pictures of clutter make me wonder how serious the seller really is. I've seen pictures that tell me the boat has been poorly maintained yet the listing price is at the high end. I imagine the seller walking into the broker's office thinking, "I wonder how much it's really worth? Can I make a profit on it?" And if the broker accepts the seller's value as the listing price...:rolleyes:

When I referred to serious sellers above, this is one of the scenarios I was thinking about. I've seen some here criticize what they called "tire kickers" as wasting the time of the seller. But the seller who is testing the market wastes the time of the buyer too. Maybe they should be called "buyer kickers."

"Why are they selling?" For the buyer, the answer to this can be a great piece of information to determine just how serious the seller is.
 
#90 ·
I recently went over 1000 miles round trip to look at a boat that was called "turnkey, ready for cruising" in the ad, and yet when I got there it was anything but, and when I confronted the owner with the obvious defects he called me a tire kicker, I wanted to kick him in the tires. I was soooo angry, but it is part of the process and I was also able to visit some friends. Next time I will have the seller take a video camera on board.
 
#91 ·
Have then film that days newspaper at the start so you know it's a current video. :)

A tire kicker traveling 1000 miles. :rolleyes:
 
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