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Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

21K views 107 replies 19 participants last post by  Robcooper0767 
#1 · (Edited)
I have a P30 with 5' draft and sometimes that depth can get a bit dicey. Would love to have a Pearson 10M because I like the look and inside layout (head, with toilet and sink vs P30 and P32 layout.
Looking at:
1. P34 with Centerboard? Pros and cons? Can't do the 5'11 full keel. Is this just a P30 on steriods (especially wrt the interior?) (I like the aft head in the 33-2 for room and placement)
2. P33-2 with winged keel or Centerboard.....who's faster? Is hull cored or solid? I thought I read that some were solid, some cored....anyone have details, like year or hull numbers if they switched? Any concerns or problems with cored hulls on Pearsons.
3. C&C (yes, cored) with C/B, shoal, wing. Like the C&C above 30' - 33, 34, 35, 36, 38LF (big boat but no one says it's fast but PHRF is in the mid 130's......Hmmm, better than most I'm looking at). Which C&C's have shallower drafts? I'm going all over the web and it's making my head hurt.
4.Tartan (only Masthead sloops, don't want fractional. 3000 (would like larger), 33 and 34's are nice, 37's are wow!, but......
5.C34 and C36 wings, Centerboarders (I'm looking at so many boats, I think Catalina has centerboarders, maybe it's shoal)
6.Sabres, but price points are high, and, yes, very well built, but kind of old style interior (nicer P30 on steriods)...like the Sabre 34's, but the MkII's with the aft head are Way over my dollar value....but, they have MK1 CB's that are within reach ($).
King for a day would be the Pearson 10M - I just like it, beefy, accessible from wheel (main, traveller, jib/genoa winches......if it only had a different keel!!!!
Want to stay below 40k, would like 30's, would love 20's!
Bottom line: Like the Sparkman and Stephens "look". Sleek, fast looking, nice angles. Not so much on the square boats. But, with the Admiral and a 4 year old, need a good size cockpit, good creature comforts below, want some speed and fun....in other words, where is that PERFECT Boat???!!!laugher.gif
Understand: leaky window gaskets, stanchions that need rebedding, but what are horrible, stay away boats that have major issues, not just maintenance or, hey, they are 20-40 years old....what do we expect!!
Thanks
R
 
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#39 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

@DrB: not to mention sails, equipment, just keep on goin'....yep...seeing the dollars fly out of my wallet with bigger.....

@all:
That's why this discussion, albeit a bit "all over the map" is really helping me try to narrow the field like I did with my P30....went from a whole lot, to 2 choices, but didn't have the access to you folks to help.
 
#40 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Ok, so let's say I stay with 33 or 34 footer. And I do relocate to Tidewater VA (Norfolk area) or New Bern, NC, I'll be doing Coastal Ocean sailing. I lived in California for 8 years and used to sail to Catalina Island and in Pacific Coast from San Diego to Oceanside areas. Will do the same if we are closer to Atlantic. And the Bahamas option will be in play too.
Question: Any 30-33/34 footers that should drop off the consideration, or boats that should be added based on this. Keep in mind that before this happens, (Donna!), I'll still need to keep my eye on draft for the Chesapeake.....BTW, I hear Bahamas have alot of shallow draft areas too......
 
#43 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Rob, I would not rule out the Sabre 34 MK1 ( centerboard) with 3'11" draft and a 50' air clearance it will take you just about anywhere you'd want to go on the East Coast.
It's a very traditional layout but quite comfortable for 3 people.
 
#47 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I grew up in the Tidewater area. If you are sailing down there ... there are only a few marinas that can accommodate you ... In Little Creek or Metro Norfolk or Willoughby Spit ... You really won't need a shoal draft there because the inlets that are shallow are blocked by low bridges (such as Lynnhaven or Broad Bay).
 
#48 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

David,
If we end up in Norfolk, I'll try to use the Amphib Base or Naval Shipyard Marina's on the Naval bases. Do you have any info on limitations for those? We did a house/area looksee about two months ago around the entire Tidewater area, if you do the clock face example, from Toana at 11 o'clock, to north Williamsburg (too crowded), Smithfield and west to south, to Nansemond, southern Chesapeake, to Moyock, NC, to around and below Pungo (very south VA Beach), to Poquoson, up to Gloucester, Hayes, over to Mobjack Bay.....need to be in "rural, suburban" but need good schools for the 4 year old to grow into....but the Peninsula (Williamsburg-south) is out...way too much traffic and people along I-64 corridor for me. Also looking at New Bern/Neuse River/Oriental, NC area.Rob
 
#49 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

@Tempest:
I'm tracking quite a few of the Sabre 34 MkI's....the MkIIs are out of my price range at $50+ K......

@Jim McGee,
The MKII's are nice but same story, out of my price range I think. R
 
#50 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

New sails every 10 years -- $3000 = $300/year
Bottom paint every 2 years -- $1200 (including labor and haul out) = $600/year
Engine maint per year -- $100
Running rigging every 10 years -- $1000 = $100/year
Total of these big ticket maint items: $1100/year
Moorage every year -- $4000/year

All highly rounded and in today's prices. I also left out plenty of maint costs, I just wanted to make a point.

For me moorage is the highest cost of boat ownership by far. It's also not linear in Seattle, a 30' slip is $323/mo ($10.76/foot) while a 34' slip is $395/mo ($11.61/foot). Another way to think of it is that those extra 4 feet cost $72/mo or almost $900/year. For that cost I can afford to charter a larger boat for the rare times that I'd want it. Slips here are priced by the slip length, not the boat length.

I don't think it is worth buying into "what if" scenarios for purchasing the boat. Buy the boat that meets your known needs for today and the next few years. If the "what if" scenario comes around and you have time to sail to Europe then you'll just upgrade at that point. The costs of keeping a "what if" boat around and in good shape until then will cost you a lot.

Sail prices are related to sail area, and sail area is related to displacement, so that one really does go up exponentially with length. Running rigging and standing rigging also do. A larger cruising boat will also likely have more systems to maintain, which will also increase the annual costs.
 
#52 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I did and the PHRF is in the mid-170's. I'm trying to stay at the 150's or lower if possible. I think the 323 is more of a cruiser, than cruiser/racer.....total sail area is 477.02, vs about 510 to 550 for the 33-2, 34, 34-2's and they all sit in the 150 arena. I do like the interior layout, if it had the performance too, it would be a keeper for me!
 
#53 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I've owned a 1985 Cal 33-2 shoal keel for the last 4 years and it would seem to fit your requirements pretty well. Base PHRF rating is 138 and draft is 4'8". Most seem to be priced from high 20s to 40s. I like the interior layout much better than most boats her size and its a great performer in both light and heavy winds. Here's a link with data.

CAL 33 (HUNT) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
 
#54 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Have a CAL 35 MKII I found on Sailboatlistings.com - 1984 Cal 35 MK II sailboat for sale in Massachusetts
That I've saved....it's nice too, a Lapworth design. - 5' fin keel
The 33 (Hunt) Shoal (yours) is a very nice boat.....I've got that on the list too, Any issues I should know of with CALs?
I didn't mean to exclude them, for whatever reason they fell off, but shouldn't have. My 30' decision was shortlisted to P30 and CAL30, and I found a P30 I liked/condition I wanted first.

Appreciate the reminder.....what are the things to look for/avoid (other than the "obvious" moisture in deck, etc. Did CAL 33 and 35's have any known, special problems to look out for?
THanks again,
Rob
 
#57 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Appreciate the reminder.....what are the things to look for/avoid (other than the "obvious" moisture in deck, etc. Did CAL 33 and 35's have any known, special problems to look out for?
THanks again,
Rob
Never been on a Cal 35, but the construction of my 33-2 is impressive. The shrouds are NOT just tied to plywood bulkheads, but stainless rods tie the loads into the structural grid. Hull is solid (no core) and interior finish is a step above most of the popular boats of her day. Engine access is exceptional. No unique issues to watch out for that I'm aware of.
 
#55 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Cal's (and lots of other boats) have the chainplates mounted to wooden bulkheads instead of to fiberglass knees. You need to give special attention to those in a survey to make sure that there isn't any rot.

I haven't been on a Pearson 33-2, but I'd guess that the chainplates go to fiberglass knees like in my 28-2. There is no bulkhead in a suitable location. I really like how these boats are rigged.

As an aside it's weird that Pearson rounded up the name of the 32.5' long boat to 33-2, but rounded down the name of the 28.5' boat to 28-2. There is a 4' difference in length, but a 5' difference in naming convention.
 
#56 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

The answer to your needs is a C&C 35 MKIII k/cb. Draft is 4'6" board up and 7 board down. Nice weighted board so it doesn't rattle in its trunk. Great 6'6" interior headroom. C shaped setee makes it a great set up for cruising. We sail the Chessie and also take her offshore to Ne England every year.

Most C&C are not cored hulls so don't let others scared you off. Thickness of hull fiberglass is huge compared to most boats. Topside have end grain balsa core which makes the boat stiff.
Lines lead aft. Gigantic anchor compartment and very large V compared to the other boats you are looking at. Large refrigerated box at 6 cubic , nice safe galley.

This model is a true racer/ cruiser which will keep you at the front of the pack with others on your heels with a PHRF of 127. Set up with drastic inboard jib tracks which allow for very tight pointing angles to windward and when it pipes up you drop the cb and sail inside made others. Good quality workmanship, nice warm teak inside with very little on the outside. Great lines.

We bought ours with a Sabre 36, and a Tartan 37 in close competition. It came down to which was in the best condition.

If you want a truly fast hybrid which is comfortable...can't go wrong with most C&C . Feel free to PM me if you wish to.

Dave
 
#58 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

@Alex W: And why is the 34-2 really a 34.5' boat!! And the "old" P34 is a 33.78'.......one explanation might be the same as the one for my P30, a 29 and change' boat. The P30 has to be "under 30'" to allow it to compete on the race circle when it was first introduced...I think that the P34 might have similar rationale, but maybe the later Pearsons didn't have that race thing that they had to meet.....or something??

@Dave and Jim,
Thanks for info. As I further and further refine, I'm using the input to search in smaller and smaller circles.
Interesting that the Sabre 34MKI is a nice, nicely built boat, but 20 points higher than the MKII. I'm not sure what I'm really getting on a MKI that would justify the traditional layout inside and a higher PHRF number than the nicer, faster MKII that is over 50K and out of my range.

SABRE: Any Sabre owners want to chime in on the MKI....I know there is a very faithful following, and they are built well, but the galley, creature comforts (shower), seem limited on a 34'er.
 
#77 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

@Dave,
What year is your 35 MKIII?
1983.....btw the chain plates are very robust the are horizontal SS plates 8x6 under the deck ...bolted to o longitudinal SS plate 2ft x 6 inches straight down to the stringers bolted to another horizontal SS plate through the cabinetry glassed to the stringers. Standard standing rigging is rod which adds to the stiffness of the boat.
 
#61 · (Edited)
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Here's a CB version in MA. (4'2" draft)
1985 C&C 35 sailboat for sale in Massachusetts

Here's one that has a 5'5" keel (That I noted in earlier page asking if this has an "unconventional" 5'5" keel. a C&C option keel, or something someone did through keel modification?).
1984 C&C Mark III 35 sailboat for sale in Michigan
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/29273

Anyone know either of these boats?....or the answer to the 5'5" keel?
Rob
 
#62 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Question for all:
Thinking about Keel/CBs and the comments on "marine growth" etc. that can cause problems. As noted, we are very north Chesapeake Bay, but if we relocate to Norfolk or New Bern area, would we face a bigger growth problem? I know that bottoms get a whole lot messier even above Baltimore, at Middle River. MD. I plan to take the boat out of the water each winter like I do here.....but, if Norfolk or New Bern are not in the freeze zones, do I need to take it out each year? Or, do most folks "just do it" to give their boats a break/for inspection and bottom work?
Haven't lived down in those areas, so really don't know.
 
#63 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I am not of fan of keel/CB boats. Just something else to maintain and have problems with (board jamming, cable breaking, etc). A Pearson 34 in our club almost sank when the fitting for the CB cable broke. I am happy with the performance of my shoal keel Cal 33-2.
 
#70 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I am not of fan of keel/CB boats. Just something else to maintain and have problems with (board jamming, cable breaking, etc). A Pearson 34 in our club almost sank when the fitting for the CB cable broke. I am happy with the performance of my shoal keel Cal 33-2.
That comment is really one for one particular boat in one marinia. There is no reason a keel/ cb boat would have more chance of sinking than any other boat.

Not sure how Pearson made their C/B but ours is on a cable which run through a thru hull with a stainless steel conduit attached to it with the opening above the deck. Irt is never benn hard to maintain, you change the cable as part of regular maintainence every 3 years, Takes 15 minutes. It attaches to the end of a 500 lb weighed cb. The trunk cabinet in the keel; it tucks into is wide enough and the diver says there is no more growth than the rest of the hull.

The performance you gain with a CB is noticeable to windward.

If you keep you boat on the Chessie you will find you need a diver to go down a couple times a year no matter where you keep it. We are mid to north in Rock Creek. Good bottom paint...ours is on its third year, a diver to wipe off the prop and shaft and touch up the hull is all you need. Since you are north, sometimes we go into Still Pond, and Sassafrass, and I snorkel under the boat and wipe her off as there are no nettles there.

Many good manufacturers made k/ cb boats like Bristol, Shannon, Island packet, Tartan Sabre, C&C Morgan etc. I have never heard of any great number sinking because of the centerboards.
 
#64 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Rob,

Not certain if the C34 is still in consideration for you but I certainly would not write it off just yet. Although I'm a West Coaster, many folks I know are sailing in the same waters that you are sailing. The C34 has a fantastic layout, easy to maintain and has a very solid owners site to answer any questions you might have.
BTW.. Thank You for your service... I am also retired Navy :)

Check out the C34IA site. lots of answers to any question you may have regarding the C34.

Wing Keels vs. Fin Keels

Main Message Board
 
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#65 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

S:
Appreciate your comments, thank you for your Service to our Nation!
I'm still considering them. A fellow in the Marina I'm temporarily at with the P30 (he works at the Marina) gave me his keys to his C34 (1988). This boat is probably in the best shape of any sailboat I have ever seen (I'm not exaggerating at all). Large cockpit, large foredeck for the girls to tan (yes, we know they will), and nice belowdecks. What I did notice is the aft head "shortens" the cabin from the ladder forward. The vee berth seems very "close", since there is no midships head to lengthen the visual distance to the vee berth bulkhead. That took some getting used to and I just stayed below to get adjusted to it. It is a VERY family friendly layout, I know the wife would like it. Sailing characteristics are good, nice PHRF rating.
It's still on the list......the "newer ones", like John's 1988 are probably as old as I want to go. Can you tell me when the 1988-like design would have begun? Since C34's are so large in numbers, did that "1988" look start a few years earlier? I noticed that the Catalina Yachts emblem is the "newer" design on his boat, on the port and starboard stern area...
Thanks for the websites!
R
 
#66 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

BTW:
I know many have asked why I care about PHRF for a "family boat". I probably should have explained that while I do want a competitive racer/cruiser for future beer can racing, I use the PHRF as a good litmus test for the turn of speed I'm looking for. Seems the 150's and below are where I'm feeling most comfortable.
R
 
#69 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

BTW:
I know many have asked why I care about PHRF for a "family boat". I probably should have explained that while I do want a competitive racer/cruiser for future beer can racing, I use the PHRF as a good litmus test for the turn of speed I'm looking for. Seems the 150's and below are where I'm feeling most comfortable.
R
Read about the base handicap for PHRF too. It is usually something like 500 seconds. A 170 vs 150 boat is only about 3% slower, not the 13% that you'd guess if you did ((170/150)*100)-100.

I have a boat that is pretty typical speed wise of 30' cruisers with base PHRF in the 170s, setup for cruising (dodger, anchor, fixed prop, etc) we were given a PHRF of 201. When cruising I find that we still pass a lot of boats that should have a base PHRF in the 130s, the difference between the two isn't that great and really comes down to paying attention to sail trim. I've also been passed by boats that have a higher PHRF than mine, but that are being better sailed.

There are a lot of ways that a boat with a base handicap of 170 could outperform a boat with a base handicap of 150. A folding prop, smaller dodger, not dragging a dinghy, and better sails would more than make up that difference.

Even if the true handicaps were 20 seconds apart that is a difference of 5 minutes on a 30 mile day.

I think it's worth paying some attention to PHRF if you want to avoid really slow boats, but I wouldn't worry about the difference of 20 seconds.
 
#67 ·
JimsCAL:1076127 said:
I am not of fan of keel/CB boats. Just something else to maintain and have problems with (board jamming, cable breaking, etc).
Often as we see here, opinions are often based on just that, opinion. But how often do we get facts? While I have only owned our boat for 8 years, only once have I had to do any maintenance other than paint our c/b. I pulled the c/b to reglass the eye for the pennet ...that was it. It was a about a 4 hour project give or take. True it is another item to maintain, same can be said for a fridge for example. In the big picture of boat ownership, its pretty insignificant. For the Chesapeake a c/b offers a lot of positives with few drawbacks.

Key is finding manufacturers who built good c/b designs.
 
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