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post #787 of Old 08-30-2013
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Re: Pros and cons of steel sailboats

Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
As I said, “I have sailed all the other boats mentioned” (not the Brent Swain). That is why I chose to list them. I am a delivery skipper and brokerage “on call” skipper. I sail a lot of boats.
When you are confronted by a person with more experience than yourself and that person’s experiences contradicts your theories, do you automatically call him a liar? Is that the Sailnet way?
The first 10 pages of this thread answered the OP’s questions. A sticking point early on concerned the “speed” of a steel boat. The answer is that hull material of a heavy displacement boat is inconsequential to the sailing performance of that boat. It matters little if the hull is carbon composite or plate steel. The proper shape for that displacement is what is important.
The 4 other boats mentioned by me fall into the general category of “average”. They are NOT “4 of the best blue water boats in the world” as stated by Mark2gmstrans. The Brent Swain design, as frequently shown, is just an adaptation of a purpose built boat. It is steel and can easily be adapted to a different purpose. I would choose a slightly different adaptation, but still with a full keel, and have a boat that, YES, will sail equal to or better than all the other boats mentioned.
If any of you are having trouble understanding this, as Mark2gmstrans is, I suggest that you force Mr. Perry to give you the straight scoop for once, as the source of your ignorance rests squarely on his shoulders.

First Bob is not my daddy, and I am not his, so we do not force one another to do anything at all. If I have any ignorance on anything the weight of it rest squarely on MY OWN shoulders, not Bob's, your's, or anyone else's. When I read your post I understood it to mean that you were saying you were sailing a BS 31 and outperforming all of the other boats there in your list, which by the way are far better designs in every aspect and, in my opinion, would and should perform better as blue water cruisers than the BS 31, for many reasons. The first being that those are full keel or modified fin keel boats, and the BS 31 as I have seen the designs, is a twin keel boat, seems to have the hull of an Easter egg with fairy wings, and is not going to be as good a sailor as the others. None of those boats are racers, and that is not the issue here, the issue is going to be just how sea kindly are they going to be? How well will they point, and how easily will they handle rough weather. The Westsail has been mentioned here, we know those are boats that really have a proven track record of handling storms, very well, and you and I both know they also are not racers. I would be willing to bet that the Westsail would be faster than a BS boat with twin keels of the same length, partly because the BS is going to be fatter, heavier, and have other handicaps. It has been said many times here, by sooooo many people, that wetted area makes a big difference, yet the proponents of BS are ALL seeming to want to ignore it.

You seem to be a knowledgeable skipper, a good sailor (from what I hear) and for some reason you want us to ignore the fact that the BS boats are heavier and slower by design. I won't even go into the structural issues with his so called frameless design, I know that there have been MANY far more qualified people than myself tell him that the lack of frames is not a good thing structurally. Using the top of a fuel tank as a critical structural member is also not good design and safety practice. So while you believe that I am somehow a puppet of Bob's, I am not. I have seen a lot of steel boats that looked great, had some improvements done on the designs, and were originally sort of BS designs but the finished product was most definitely not a BS design at all, once someone takes the original BS design and gets rid of the problems they can become a good design. You still are not going to build it in three weeks unless you have a large shop, an experienced team, and a lot of skill. Brent can blow smoke up people's butts all he wants, but whilst doing it he might want to think about where his lips are...

I would not work with Brent to build a boat because sooner or later I would get tired of his incessant condemnation of everything else. I think you might be able to work with him, you guys might be able to get along, because I think he would be preaching to the choir with you. I know that there are a lot of designers and builders out there, and I doubt any of them, other than Brent, will spend that much time putting down every other single method of construction, every single other designer, and everyone who does not love their designs. Brent does this and a lot more, and all over the internets, and so I like to tweak him once in awhile, and it entertains me, and I imagine one or two others, to read his replies. I can just see the poor guy, spittle flying out of his mouth as he shouts at the monitor, typing furiously, all the while his voice is getting higher in pitch as he begins yet another tale of how a "friend of mine" got into woe and almost certain death due to his boat made of inferior non-BS design methods and materials, and now has been converted to the faithful following of BS boats. He will once again tell us the tale of the boat which was humping the reef, for an ever increasing number of hours and days, I think we are up to 16 days and 10 foot swells, and being dragged 200 yards in and 200 out, and how it came through without a scratch. My first question would be "how freaking much draft did that boat have if ten foot swells would not allow it to sail free from the Fantasy Island Reef?".

So, while you may not like it, I still would like to know, just what kind of boat was it you said you were sailing past all of those others on?

It is good to learn from your mistakes, but much better to learn from the mistakes of others...
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