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Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#2,636 ·


YONI was built in alu by Jespersens in Canada. She is a beautiful, very comforable, stable and strong boat designed to cross oceans. She is heavy, 50,000 lbs. with 20,000 lbs, of lead ballast. This is exactly the boat the cient asked for. He loved it. But it is not a boat Paulo would enjoy. And as Paulo has been pointing out, this was a very expensive build, well over one million USD.
 
#2,649 · (Edited)
Bob, I guess that is some kind of an answer, a twisted one, but an answer:D

Your last heavy boat was designed 20 years ago (because the owner wanted that way) and the boat cannot even be considered heavy by the old patterns I have been talking about:D.

The boat has a Displacement/ Length Ratio of 273.9 and what is considered heavy by those standards are boats 300;)

Regarding not being the type of boat I would enjoy now, that is not fair to that design, a 20 year old one. In fact I am quite sure I would not want now any 20 year's old design.

The right question is if I would have enjoyed that design 20 years ago. I guess that being so twisted as you I can say that 12 years ago this was my dream boat. I guess you can find some similitude even if this is designed 8 years later and therefore a bit less conservative:







Regards

Paulo
 
#2,638 ·
Bob it's a very beautiful boat. What's been her history since launch? Would you care to speak to mike's point? My limited experience has been similar to his. I choose to go with moderate displacement in the hopes of getting the best of both worlds and have yet to be disappointed. The generic terms " light" " moderate" and heavy seem to vary greatly depending on who is talking. What do you mean when using these terms?
 
#2,639 ·
Out:
Thanks for the compliment on YONI. The original client sold her. He enbjoyed creating the boat but in the end had no interest in sailing it. It was bought by a Canadian pilot.

I've been staying out of this discussion because much of the time I hae hard time understanding what the "argument" is. It seems to me, and I don't mean to insult anyone, that you guys tend to disect a boat into independant elements and discuss the design as a reflection of trying to tie those elements together. I don't aproach design work that way. I have a client who knows what he wants and I give him that boat as I see it. Whether to go light or heavy is never a question. We know that when we begin. Then I do my best to match the scantlings with the displ and intended use of the boat. I wuld almost always choose weight sensitive construction. Every pound taken out of the structure can go into the ballast. But I am conservative with structure. Some light boats are only possible with light scantlings. Look at the SLIVER project. That boat would not work with a heavy hull structure. I can work in heavy boats or light boats. It depends what the client wants. Both types have their distinct advantages. If you are going offshore and want lots of tankage you are not going to get it in a light boat. PERIOD.
For me displacement will be a fucntion of the intended use of the boat coupled with the owner's preferences and sailing style.
 
#2,655 ·
Out:
I can work in heavy boats or light boats. It depends what the client wants. Both types have their distinct advantages. If you are going offshore and want lots of tankage you are not going to get it in a light boat. PERIOD.
For me displacement will be a fucntion of the intended use of the boat coupled with the owner's preferences and sailing style.
Bob,

As I read this, (and some of MikeJohns comments) there is a piece of this quote that I would like to comment on and hear both your's and Mike's thoughts. I know that I have stated my viewpoint on this on any number of occasions around here and its a position that Paulo perhaps would agree with as well.

I think that the terms " heavy boats" or "light boats" are somewhat misapplied in common usage. In my mind, these terms get applied in a manner that is shorthand for "heavy boats for their length" or "light boats for their length". My sense is that that partricular 'shorthand' sends the wrong message.

When I think about how 'big' a boat needs to be for any given owner, it starts with its stated purpose in terms of where and how the owner's plan to sail the boat, how many people are involved. That somewhat dictates the carrying capacity and the need for more or less robustness.

Once you get to a needed carrying capacity, and bearing in mind the need for more or less robustness, from there I would think its pretty easy to back into an approximate target displacement for that vessel fully loaded and from there its capacity empty.

At that point it becomes a question of picking the "just right" length. I know that there are folks who prefer a short boat for its weight. But disregarding those folk's personal preference for a moment, I suggest that the science would say that, within reason, a longer boat of the same displacement and robustness is likely to offer better accommodations, better motion comfort, more seaworthiness, and better performance than a shorter boat of the same displacement. The longer for its weight boat should also be easier to sail to sail since it would be easier to design the boat with more stability, and a more efficient keel, rudder, and sail plan.

So, if I were going distance cruising I would inherently choose the longer boat for its displacement, specifically to improve seakindliness, with the improvement in performance being a secondary consideration. That would of course fly in the face of the US court of public opinion, which says, using the usual shorthand, "a heavy boat (for its length) is more comfortable" when in fact the reality is a longer boat for its equal weight is more comfortable.

In reality, when you look at the trends in what we normally might think of as modern distance cruisers, they are tending towards being longer boats for their weight, and seem to deliver a more comfortable motion than shorter equal weight boats. That trend has been going on nearly as long as the 50 plus years that I have been sailing.

But the other oddities of perception which does not seem to make sense is the way that D/L's are bandied about. Obviously, there is a good reason for L/D being based on waterline length. But over the period that I have been sailing, waterline length has gotten progressively longer relative to length on deck. I keep hearing people talk about the motion comfort of the good old boats with L/D's in the high 200's but in reality, modern boats are not all that much lighter for their lengths on deck. They just have longer water lines which make these boats appear to be much lighter when comparing L/D's. The real gotcha in that, is that if we compare two equal length on deck with equal displacements, all other things being approximately equal the boat with the longer waterline is likely to have the more comfortable motion. That of course also flies in the face of the beliefs rendered by the court of public opinion.

Any thoughts?

Jeff
 
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#2,641 ·
Bob:

As I am just beginning to try and understand hull design, I tentatively ask this question about Yoni..... Seems like a lot of deadrise to me.. How come?

But I can confidently say that I got the Alice's Restaurant reference without resorting to any electronic media. Saw Arlo live once. He puts on a great show
 
#2,642 · (Edited)
Denda:
You got it.

The deadrise to YONI is identical to the deadrise on a Little Harbor Hood design that happened top be hauled out at the yard a half block from my office in Ballard. The clent walked me down to the yard with a bevel gauge and we measured the deadrise on the Hood boat. The client said, "That's what I want." I drew several sets of lines. We had several full model cut by CNC out of foam to insure the client was reading the lines correctly. In the end we setlkled on a hull when I tild the client, "Even I can't tell the difference anymore so I doubt the water will either." I had worked with hi deadrise before, Valiant 40 for one, so I was comfortable with it and it suited to a T the type of boat we were after.

You see, I don't figure out a new design as I go along. I have it "figured out" before I start. I have an image of the finished boat in my head when I start drawing. I have to. I have to know where I am going before deciding which direction to start out on. The boat will undergo changes during the design process. That is inevitable. But I do not start with a D/L of 250 and part way through say, "Jumpin' Jehosaphat that's heavy. I'd better reduce it to 150." It's very hard to explain the design process but it must be wholistic.

I remember a famous quote from a sculpture when asked how he managed such a likeness of Lincoln in marble. His reply was something like, "It's easy you just cut away all the parts that don't look like Lincoln."
Creativity is difficult to explain. It has a lot to do with maintaining my lifestyle.
 
#2,643 ·
Makes you think something is lost when the current crop of boats are designed in accordance to computer generated predictions of performance. Heard it said you, Carl, Ted, + Francis among others could see where each drop of water would flow past a hull at each degree of tilt and each pound of load. Now the fluid dynamics are generated by the super computer which then dictates hull and appendages. The extreme example being the glorious U.S. win in the A.C. where it seemed clear the geeks not the sailors won the races.
 
#2,644 · (Edited)
Here is another 50+'er. It is also a passagemaker and took the owner to New Zealand and back without incident. This is a much lighter boat than YONI with a very different hull shape,. There is still some sdeadrise but not very much. In most conditions this would be a faster boat than YONI. although not in heavy air upwind where the bulk of YOIN would provide a stable and comfortable ride.

Different boats for different folks. There are some that cling to one type with white knuckles and will resort to personal attacks in order to defend their choice. That's just ignorant. These people need to realize that there have been changes and improvements in yacht design and it's not a "one size fits all world." But they take it all personally and resist being open to changes. I like all kinds of boats, light, heavy, power, sail, workboats, dinghies. I just like boats and all the varieties of types they come in.
 
#2,646 ·
I have spent a good part of my life trying to understand how brains work. There may be a lot going on in yours below your conscious perception given the nature of your output over the years. This may be why in this thread and others you repetitively say how difficult it is for you to describe the creative process. Your parietal associative cortex may be working overtime when you are sleeping or playing with your grandkids so when you sit down to the board to draw the work has mainly been done before hand. As they say enjoy gods gifts- go with the flow.
Agree with you as in any human endeavor improvements are both evolutionary and through paradigm shifts. It's foolish to not recognize this. Still, Newtonian physics is more appropriate in most worldly applications then general theory. My argument with Paulo has been my perception many boats currently place less emphasis on biomechanics and intended use when addressing the small segment of long term cruisers. I'm sure Steve is happier in his Boreal then he was in his Mason. This is not to say both are great boats. However, I think neither he nor I would be happy in a Open 40 derived boat. Watching Paulo's videos makes me appreciate the genus of those boats but I have no desire to own one.
Still wonder why your clients and others don't build incorporating wood epoxy or wood hybrid technologies? To my knowledge in my surrounds only the folks in Nova Scotia have any significant output.
 
#2,648 · (Edited)
I do my best design "thinking" when I am just waking up in the morning..

Second best time is in the shower. When I first moved to Seattle in the winter of 2005, I lived on my Catalina 22 in the Edmonds marina. Showers cost $.25 for 3 minutes. I kept a jar on my desk. If people wanted me to figure things out for them, I would suggest that they deposit a quarter in the jar, and I would spend an extra 3 minutes in the shower thinking about a solution.

It worked.

Seriously.
 
#2,650 ·
Paulo:
You are lucky in that you are open to the new and you know very well what works best to give you the utmost enjoyment under sail. Performance is always a moving target. It was only 39 years ago (wow!) that some people thought the Valiant 40 with a D/L of 250 was "too light" to be a serious cruising boat. A well known designer at the time wrote that in YACHTING magazine. But he's not well known today and I doubt you have even heard of him. That tells me something.

I'm afraid any answers I may have will continue to be "twisted". I want to leave plenty of room for personal preferences. God forbid I fall into the BS approach that "It's my way or you are stupid" trap.

When people frequently ask me what boat I would choose for myself I am hard pressed to answer. I think it would depend on the day, the conditions, what I wanted to do with the boat and my mood.

Today it is 28 degrees F here at the shack. There is no wind. There are no waves. I think if I were going to head off for a few days today I would pick a pilot house BaBa 40. I could motor along at 7.5 knots snug inside at the inside steering station nursing a rum toddy with some nice Schubert on the hi-fi, some beef short ribs braising on the stove and my dog curled up on the settee. I'd pick a quiet harbor, maybe Matts Matts, anchor and relax comfortably depressed.
 
#2,653 · (Edited)
Bob, I don't buy that. Yes performance is a moving target and yes I too like all types of boats for all types of sailing and cruising and I understand that today you would wanted to pick a boat with the characteristics of a Pilot house but if you today designed a boat to fulfill the same criteria of the Baba 40, you would be designing a different boat, one that would be an all around better performer and you know that too.

So yes, there is boats designed to perform better in many different situations, from daysailors to voayage boats but the ones that are made today for fulfill the same functions are all around better boats than the ones designed 20 years ago, not to mention 30, 50 or 100 years ago and the reason is the same. Yacht design is in constant evolution and more knowledge and more modern materials allows for better sailingboats.

Regarding heavy boats, boats with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300, they are not used anymore in boat design. Even the ones that today are considered heavy, like the Najad, Halberg-Rassy, Oyster or Amel are in fact medium height boats and they are used and designed to perform the same type of sailing old heavy boats were designed to perform, including comfort, only they do it better, faster and more comfortably.

Regarding having a boat, we all would like to have a boat for each situation and type of weather we sail but as that is not possible choices and compromises have to be made regarding the boat that better fulfill the conditions and the pleasures we want to have while sailing and there are many possible choices even in what regards the market.

Regarding the boat that I posted, it was a passage maker. My ideal boat 4 years later was still a passage maker but a better boat, one faster and more polyvalent but some more years later it was not a passage maker anymore. I found out that my wife would not sail with me if I crossed oceans, I find out also that I do no wanted to be faraway from my kids and family for years and that I would prefer to cruise in the spring and summer but to be with the family in the winter. That translated in a new type of boat as my ideal boat. Even the same sailor, if he is not dumb, can have, according to his changing desires and situations different types of ideal boats along his live but rarely are the ones that can have 3 or 4 boats, one for each particular occasion:D

Regards

Paulo
 
#2,654 ·
"Regarding heavy boats, boats with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300, they are not used anymore."

Paulo:
That is just not at all true. You are living in a vacuum. I have several designs that have full keels and D/L's around or even over 300. There are about 100 Baba 40's and they are all over. We must have half a dozen here in the PNW. We get at least three every year at the Perry Rendezvous. My pal raced his to Hawaii a few years back. They are very much used.

George Day of BLUE WATER SAILING said a few years back that there are more Tayana 37's world cruising than any other boat. They are getting used. They built 600 Tayana 37's!!!

I have Baba 30's, Tashiba 31's, Tashiba 36's, CT 54's, CT56's all heavy boats with full keels and all seeing a lot of use today.

So when you say, "they are not used anymore" you could not be more wrong.

Maybe they go by you so fast that you don't even see them. They are all rockets.




 
#2,656 · (Edited)
"Regarding heavy boats, boats with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300, they are not used anymore."

Paulo:
That is just not at all true. You are living in a vacuum. I have several designs that have full keels and D/L's around or even over 300. There are about 100 Baba 40's and they are all over. We must have half a dozen here in the PNW. We get at least three every year at the Perry Rendezvous. My pal raced his to Hawaii a few years back. They are very much used.

...
So when you say, "they are not used anymore" you could not be more wrong.

Maybe they go by you so fast that you don't even see them. They are all rockets.

...
That's my time to say: chill out Bob:D

My poor English has some responsibility but you have completely misunderstood what I wanted to say. I was talking about a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300 not being used anymore in boat design. I was talking about boat design but I edited the post anyway to be more clear. Any other way would not make any sense.

Sure, all those boats are rockets but less rockets then modern designed boats for the same funtion;)

We can say that in what regards contemporary yacht design we can say that any cruising boat with 10 years is not at the state of the art and a racing boat in less time, about 5 years. What I said regards this.

I don't now of any relevant designer that had designed for any type of sailing in the last 10 years a boat with a Displacement/ Length Ratio over 300.

Do you have designed any of those on the last 10 years?

Regards

Paulo
 
#2,657 ·
I think that the Displacement/Length ratio has nothing to do with the weight of a boat. It is an effective tool to compare 2 boats of the same type. But the boat with the lower D/L ratio is not necessarily lighter. There are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 100 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.
 
#2,659 · (Edited)
I think that the Displacement/Length ratio has nothing to do with the weight of a boat..........There are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 100 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.
With all due respect, I am not sure that you precisely meant either of those things. While D/L is intended to be a non-scalar way of comparing the relative displacement of boats, obviously, the D in the D/L is weight, so weight does something to do with D/L. ;)

But I think that the second sentence above is probably a typo. I suspect that probably (and would agree with you if) you meant to say, there are cruising boats with D/L ratios under 200 that are very conservative and not super light racers, in fact not racers at all.
 
#2,662 · (Edited)
"Originally Posted by mitiempo
I" think that the Displacement/Length ratio has nothing to do with the weight of a boat

Wrong!
D/L has everything to do with the weigtht of the boat, weight relative to DWL. That's the point.
Don't kid yourself. That Sundeer is way overweight. Look at how it's dragging its transom. Do you think it was designed to ride like that?

Paulo:
"but you have completely misunderstood what I wanted to say."
( I say that to my wife all the time.)
I only know what you say. If you say it incorrectly I can understand. But I am not a mind reader. There is no way I can know what you "wanted to say". I did think it was a very odd thing for you to say. But no problem. Your English is far better than my Portuguese or Spanish or French (you probably speak Italian too). So I applaud you for being able to communicate in English at the level you do. You contribute a lot here. Technical subjects are very difficult in a 2nd language. I struggle with Mandarin Chinese but I wouldn't attempt a technical discussion. We are very lucky as a group to understand each other as well as we do.

I think I'll go design a boat. But I'll make dinner first.
 
#2,664 ·
Wrong!
D/L has everything to do with the weight of the boat.
Don't kid yourself. That Sundeer is way overweight. Look at how it's dragging its transom. Do you think it was designed to ride like that?
From Steve Dashew's "Cruising Encyclopedia"

"Because of our low D/L ratios,stern waves are quite small in magnitude and quickly move aft of the hull itself once the vessel in question has attained a relatively modest forward velocity.
As a result, we design some of our hulls to have a small amount of immersed transom at rest and at low speeds (typically below S/L ratios of one).
Practical experience has shown that this immersion costs us between 4% of speed at S/L ratios of .4 to .6 andhalf of this between an S/L ratio of .6 and .8.
While this is a huge number in racing terms, it seems nearly meaningless in a cruising context.
If we are talking about 4% or 4 knots , it is less than 4 miles in a 24 hour passage.
And when you look at the advantages (better performance at top speed, more efficient powering, much better prop characteristics when powering into head seas, higher longitudinal stability) this seems like a small price to pay, especially in light of the fact that with an efficient powering set-up, you are going to be motorsailing on passages during light airs anyway - regardless of how fast the boat sails in these conditions."

The book also has a series of pictures showing the stern wave still attached to the transom at S/L ratios under 1 and astern of the transom at S/L ratios of 1.125 while heavily loaded in a true wind speed of 10 knots.

So according to Steve it is designed to immerse the transom at rest and at slower speeds for gains at higher speeds of 25 to 40 miles per day.

His designs have been focused on one thing - offshore cruising with couples in mind. They have done this quite well I think. On his blog there is a chart showing his designs and their mileage. 32 boats, 21 circumnavigations (including the one I pictured) and an average mileage per boat of over 55,000 miles. They seem to do well what they are designed for.
SetSail» Blog Archive » Deerfoot and Sundeer History
 
#2,666 · (Edited)
I really don't care what Dashew says. That boat is overweight. Displacement figures are highly suspect especially when they are published by a promoter like Dashew.
And yeah, the perfect cruising boat for everyone is a 60' to 80' custom yacht. Right.

I was getting dinner ready and thinking about Paulo's "what I wanted to say" and I was reminded of a funny story: I can relate.

Years ago in Taiwan I had just returned to my hotel from a nice lunch and the girls behind the front deck asked me what I had eaten for lunch. I always try hard to reply in Mandarin so I told them, "Woa cher shiatze". They all got a very surprised look on their faces. I knew I had screwed up and asked, "She mo she?" What's the matter? The head girl said in English, "You say you eat blind person for lunch!"

Oh, No, I told them , in English this time, I had shrimp for lunch. Turns out "blind person" and "shrimp" are only a tonal distance apart and I had used the wrong tone.
 
#2,667 ·
The point I am making is that a boat with a lower D/L for its displacement will gain in speed and comfort as well probably. Certainly be more fun to sail. And it doesn't have to be 60 feet long either. I think to be able to carry the load a cruising boat needs really low D/L ratios only work with larger boats. If you look at smaller boats with almost equal displacements two in a smaller size range are the Saga 43 (D/L 160) and the Westsail 32 (D/L 429). Extreme examples but I picked the Westsail because it is almost the same displacement as the Saga, a boat I have always liked. The Saga is a few hundred pounds heavier but its D/L would suggest to many that it is a light boat. The Saga will carry 1 1/2 times as much before immersing an inch so a cruising load is less of an issue as well.
 
#2,671 ·
VF:
Thank you.
I'll see you a dinner tomorrow night.
Thank God there is a brain left. There is hope.

Miti:
Time you made the trip down here to the shack. I'll take care of you.
But with Sailing Anarchy people from all over the world and my usuals from North America
I am getting booked up for Christmas.

December 16th guests arrive from Australia. Fair dinkum. I have never met these people but they are welcome at the shack
 
#2,675 · (Edited)
I've never seen Beowulf except in pics. I met the Dashews in 1991 in Victoria when they were returning from Alaska in the original 67' Sundeer. There is a lot to be said for bare aluminum and its utilitarian looks and minimal upkeep.

While everything they have done is big dollar the trend of long, lean, and minimal overhangs is common to many designs, including Bob's Saga 35 and 43 and Chuck Paine's Bougainvillea series. An easily driven boat that has very balanced lines at an angle of heel makes sense and overhangs, other that for rating rules and beauty in the eyes of some, really don't make sense in terms of speed and longitudinal stability. Workboats the world over would have them if they were of any practical use - very few do.

I think many agree that boats should be compared by displacement rather than length. This makes sense both on a dollar to build basis as well as handling ability. After all the Sundeer 60, while thought of as a large boat is only slightly heavier than a Valiant 50 and 12,000 lbs lighter than Yoni.

I think my ideal boat (for now:)) would be an aluminum boat of about 50' like a Saga 43 but with not much more beam if any, no overhangs, and a hard dodger. Rigged as a double headsail sloop, like the Saga.
 
#2,676 ·
One of the things that I have found is that the 'perfect' boat is a moving target.

When I was a kid the 'perfect' boat was a SouthCoast 21 simple because I could afford to own it from what I made cleaning boat hulls.

When the family was cruising I happen to think the Irwin 54' was pretty close to perfect, it was big slow, and sailed like a pig. But it was great for a family of five to live on.

When I was racing OD the J-22 was perfect because it was the big fleet around here.

For now the Beneteau is perfect for weekending with the wife.

Soon I am thinking a VX OD may be the perfect boat, because the fleet is growing and the price is right....
 
#2,679 ·
Paulo- Still think there is great merit in what Mike says. Undoubtedly with each passing year design and material advances are made. No one is arguing that point. However, you continue to see very long runs of semi production boats or small production runs sometimes extending over decades. Examples include Hinckley, Morris, Valliant, Kanter, Rustler and my beloved Outbound. None of these boats are cheap and I would be very surprised if any are built as a first boat or for owners who have not done their due diligence. They do evolve and incorporate some of the latest and greatest in their systems but the basic structure remains unchanged. Mike points out they simply work and fill the needs of their owners. I sail a design first done in 2001. I knew that when I built it taking delivery in 2013. If I had to do over again I would do the same.
 
#2,680 ·
You did not mention any European boat and for a good reason: The US market is much less competitive than the European market, with a much lower output and that means the development is slower and the boats remain competitive for more years even if the design is not at the state of the art no more.

Also some of the boats that you mention are not produced anymore and 10 or 20 years ago the developments were slower and the boats remained on the market for more time, even the European ones.

Finally two more factors, the conservatism of American sailors regarding anything that is new and the very low production of all those brands. Probably Halberg Rassy, a single high end brand produces more boats on a year that all those American Brands put together and even in what regards boats sold only to the US I bet the difference should not be that big.

There are also In Europe some small familiar firms that keep producing models, most of them traditional, that don't change models so frequently. Many times those models are not designed by top NA but by the builder himself. Europe has also his number of conservative sailors but in much less number than the American ones.

Anyway neither those sailors nor those brands pretend they are producing top of the art boats in what refers design, building techniques or materials. They are satisfied with high quality traditional workmanship and with boats that are beautiful and sail relatively well.

Regards

Paulo
 
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