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Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#3,007 ·
Not sure how many people have seen this, but here is a link to the Brent Swain boat "MOM". Interesting material and presentation.

Sailing Vessel MOM

Lots of work in building this boat. Still, when it's done, it doesn't have the fine finish of a factory built boat (or if one can afford it, a one off custom boat built from fiberglass). And building quick is not a feature, at least not in this one.

No doubt when MOM and my boat collide, my fiberglass boat will be the one going to the bottom, but I still like mine better. I'll be careful not to get into such a collision. Mine looks better (in my opinion anyway). Ordered in May, delivered in Sept, fully commissioned in October, after a couple of hurricane delays.
Not a multiple year project. That counts a lot to me, and probably to lots of others.
 
#3,012 · (Edited)
.........

No doubt when MOM and my boat collide, my fiberglass boat will be the one going to the bottom, but I still like mine better. I'll be careful not to get into such a collision. ...................
If you have a heavier displacment solid GRP hull it will hold up quite well in a collision, Foam core ULDB won't.
But Mom is an interesting example, on BD net a pic was posted of her after she sat her stern down on a rock after a grounding, the resultant damage is a good example of the lack of panel support, caused simply by the boats own weight and lack of framing to distribute the load. Must have been disheartening for the owners.

Your boat would probably have survived this without damage. Steel boats can be made a lot tougher than this with a very small amount of material and a boat this size in steel should have been bomb proof. There are a lot of similar examples in Brent boats, don't let his marketing fool you into thinking they are extraordinarily tough.
 

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#3,009 ·
Nicely executed but if I was looking at steel with need to dry out and thin water capabilities I would look at Puffins Yacht Design | Olivier van Meer Design Naval Architect. Beautiful pilot house boats. Was on a 46' on the hard in N.H. Drop dead gorgeous interior. Old boat but looked like it just came out of the shed for the first time. Very well thought out and very liveable. From what I understand Van Meer has quite a following and his boats have none of the structural issues Mike has referred to.
 
#3,010 ·
Spent New Year's Eve at a nearby marina, and took a dock walk looking for metal boats. Not many, but an interesting variety:



Amazon 37?




Interesting waterproofing of the deck house:



Didn't get a stern shot, but multichine aft..



And an 'ultimate' steel boat - maybe Mark's (Copacabana's) other boat?;)

 
#3,011 ·
Spent New Year's Eve at a nearby marina, and took a dock walk looking for metal boats. Not many, but an interesting variety:

Interesting waterproofing of the deck house:

Wait. What the hell? Steel boats don't leak Faster. That's not waterproofing. It's just to cut down on the heat from the blazing PNW sun.
 
#3,015 ·
Well, customers must not mind the leaky plywood since this one is going for $80K:

Sea J II


And the far superior Dove II can't find a buyer at $20K. Oh the humanity.

That's a Newport 40, a plywood boat. Some of my clients upgraded from one to a brentboat 36
That is what it takes to stop a wooden deck from leaking.
Based on the numbers, I'd call that a significant downgrade.
 
#3,017 ·
Brent:
Why do you try to discuss "engineering" when you display over and over that you have problems with numbers? I think you are free and loose with the term "engineering". Maybe "my guess is" would work better for you. You have never presented any engineering here just vague generalities.
 
#3,025 ·
Engineering is the judicious application of logic, which I have given plenty of. No I don't need a computer or engineering degree to figure out if a 4X4 is stronger than a 2x4. Obviously, some do. I am frequently reminded here of the time I made a purchase in a drug store ,which came to $3.25. I gave the cashier $5.25,and she ran off to find her pocket calculator. She is what I call the " Mikey Generation." No logic allowed, just numbers juggling.
Without logic, engineering is nothing.
 
#3,022 ·
Nobody is censoring you Brent. You are entertaining. We like you here. You say funny things. I think it is some kind of technical problem with the site.

That happens to me too from time to time. It's quite annoying after 10 minutes of typing. You can avoid it, you really should considering how long winded your BS posts are, by typing your post in WORD then copying it and pasting it into the thread. It's easy. Little children can do it. It beats seeing all your typing dissapear. I can help you with it if you need help. I'm a whizz at this ****e.
 
#3,023 ·
Disclaimer- although I briefly went to engineering school I have no detailed knowledge of N.A. or structural engineering and unlike some admit it.
Still seem to recall all metals have thermal expansion and contraction issues. Although of greater degree in Al still operative in Fe. This is one reason framing in metal boats allowed to " float". Also seem to recall allowance for thermal effects is incorporated into design of attached framing such as at watertight bulkheads.
Seem to recall metal around welds and welds asked to handle load cycles generated by thermal effects are more likely to fail.
Also recall t or angle framing cut and welded to allow curve is much stronger than simple framing bent to curve.
Wonder how above issues impact on Brent boats.
 
#3,024 ·
I asked my 91 year old father, a steam engineer most of his adult life , how much a hot exhaust pipe will expand when heated . He said " At 1500 degrees , a quarter inch in 15 feet."
It is not an issue on finished boats , but weld shrinkage while building is. That is why the roughest framed boats are those in which all plating was first attached to frames before doing the long seam welding, and the fairest are those in which the longitudinals are left to float free from the frames while the long welds are done, and only attached to the frames after the welding is done. Shrinkage from chine welds will lift the plate off the frames, sometimes by over an inch, in a beautiful ,slightly compound curve, if you let it.
If the plate is first welded to the frames, it cant move ,the edges shrink anyway and you get an oil canned , hungry horse look.
Welding the plate to longitudinals before final welding of long seams has no negative effect on distortion, but helps avoid distortion.
With frameless, the plate is free to move, and welding is far more forgiving. More shrinkage simply means more beautifully fair, compound curve. I have seen an inch and a quarter of compound curve between the chine and the sheer.
 
#3,026 ·
Brent, if you presented your ideas minus all the anger, contemptuousness and attack mode you would probably find they get a better reception.

Just a thought.

And by the way, you never answered about the lifetime contributions to the CPP/OAS you are looking forward to collecting. ;)
 
#3,028 · (Edited)
I only attack when I am being attacked . I have a right to respond in kind. I am definitely not a fan of Neville Chamberlain's approach. Where would we be today if we had taken his advice?
The average car in BC is subsidised to the tune of $2500 a year( cost of highways above gas taxes etc. Having never owned a car, I have not taken that subsidy. I have paid GST, HST manufacturing taxes, fuel taxes, sales taxes, etc. my entire life. No one takes my garbage from my front door, nor has delivered mail to my hatch. I am hooked to no grid and make my own energy from solar sources, and take my heating fuel from the beaches, so their oil company subsidies ( corporate charity ) don't give me full benefits. I have spent many long, unpaid , volunteer hours politically campaigning for the continuation of our social safety nets, including pensions and medicare.

The ratio of CEOs salary, to that of the average worker, has gone form 30 time to 300 times , all tax deductible as a business expense, which taxpayers have to make up for, in effect, subsidise. I have received no such subsidy. So why in hell should I feel guilty about not having had to subsidize such multi billionaires out of my pocket? My pension comes out of what Canadians call "The Mike Duffy Nutrition Fund ." Ask the nearest Canadian how that works, and if they would feel guilty about tapping in to it.
Being aboriginal ,I think it is about time they started paying us a bit of rent, and royalties for the resources they have been stealing ( our inheritance) .They are way behind in that department.
.
 
#3,030 ·
So that would be "I never contributed and I'm playing the "part Aboriginal entitlement" card"?"

In other words, the rest of us get to support you.

I must be prescient - I had that one figured to the last detail.

How about this - on your 65th birthday you up anchor and sail off to the South Seas - permanently.
 
#3,037 · (Edited)
Why not, when you're getting a virtually free ride on the backs of the rest of us?

And just by the by Brent, I very much doubt you have ever paid much (or any) GST/PST/FIT/PIT or any other taxes - I'm sure you had your steel and everything else of consequence delivered to the Res so they wouldn't apply, just like every other full or part aboriginal I've ever known.

And of course none of that stuff was delivered by planet raping trucks over planet raping roads and you've never spent a day in hospital or at the Doctor (that the rest of us paid for) - have you? Apparently you DIDN'T use the school system so that's a point in your favour.

I was born here too and I've lived here as long as you (and contributed) so spare me the deep soul "Aboriginal" bit Brent. You're about as "aboriginal" as those MaKah with their .50 Cal. harpoon guns on 300 Hp. Zodiacs and their oh so spiritual whale hunt. The fact that your grandaddy or 2nd uncle was aboriginal doesn't entitle you - it simply means you're just another mooch living off the efforts of others.

Cheez, I must be physic! :laugher
 
#3,038 ·
I've paid as high a percentage of my spending on sales taxes as anyone else. If you want to talk about mooches, take a look a those making the laws giving themselves up to 52% wage rises to enhance the greed factor in order to get "Good people"into politics, and the obscenely wealthy friends they force the rest of us to subsidize.
Never built a boat on a rez.
If some one stole your inheritance , what was willed to you, I'm sure you would be content if they only gave back a small portion to you, as to give you back the works would be "Unfair".
Ya, sure you would , just as sure as if the grossly overpaid and wasteful government was offering you money, you would turn it down.
Ya, sure you would .
Man, what a crock!
 
#3,040 ·
If some one stole your inheritance , what was willed to you, I'm sure you would be content if they only gave back a small portion to you, as to give you back the works would be "Unfair".
The difference is - MY inheritance is what my parents built and left.

I don't regard the whole freakin' COUNTRY as "my" inheritance.
 
#3,041 ·
Hey Smacks, my wife Jill's GG grandfather was Cherokee. He was an Oklahoma Territory sheriff. I have a photo of him taken in 1901 with the other sheriffs. It's a classic photo. They are all wearing three piece suits and cowboy hats while looking very sheriffy.

"I'm a happy old dude who wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet."
Gee whizz BS, you sound miserable and very angry most of the time, constantly whining and venting spleen about all number of things.
 
#3,042 ·
Wow, I wonder if they knew each other? My grandfather's family came out of the Oklahoma Territory as well. My G-Grandfather owned a trading post and pool hall there, sold some land to Jesse James (we have a letter from him), and generally whooped it up.
 
#3,043 ·
Smacks:
From the look of Jill's GG grandfather in the photo, he does not loolk like a whooper. He is the only native American in the photo, smoking a corn cob pipe and scowling. There is one black sheriff and he is standing off to the side of the group. Jill's brother inherited the six gun. Jill inherited one of his pipes. and I have that in my collection. Jill's Mom is very avid into her ancestry, she is connected to the Stetson family of hat fame, but when she confronted some of her relatives in Oklahoma they apparently were not keen on discussing that side of the family. Jill is going to visit her Mom today and she will ask about it. Jill's mom is a cousin of Adam West aka Bill Anderson aka Batman.
So I got that going for me.
 
#3,044 ·
That side of my family are the McCulloughs. This mix of Cherokee and Scot explains my general scrappiness, predilection for blue face paint, and Outacite eyes.

I wonder why Brent won't give any details on his background? From his pics he looks much more European than Abor.
 
#3,045 ·
Smack:
I don't believe a word of what BS says. The guy has an honesty issue. He sure as hell does not look like an Abo to me. I live on a reservation. I have a pretty good idea what the PNW natives look like. But you never know. Ran into a strikingly attractive gal at the bank once and I just had to ask her what her ethnicity was. She was half Eskimo and half Irish. It worked.
 
#3,047 ·
1/2 brown & 1/2 white usually works incredibly well. As Russell Peters said - in a few generations the whole world is going to be beige. Actually, judging by some of the kids in Vancouver, I'd say 1/2 brown, 1/2 white and 1/2 Asian is the best mix - there are some absolutely breathtakingly beautiful kids here.

Robert E. Lee is an ancestor of mine - do you think I'm entitled to some compensation for the War of Northern Aggression? :D
 
#3,046 ·
I took some inspiration from Brent.I am half Irish so I wrote the British government and demanded they send me 4000 pounds a month for life for the occupation, oppression, and genocide they brought upon the Irish, my people.I am half English so I wrote the Irish government and demanded 4000 euro a month for life for all the destruction of property, mayhem and stress the Irish brought upon my the English, my people.I am sure the Germans owe me something to as well as The Russions....the Chinese.........
 
#3,048 ·
And don't forget the Visigoths.

Actually, you may be onto something. Brent should write a book called "How To Milk The Man". The steel boat thing is so yesterday. This could be a big hit for him and supplement that free "pension" he's about to score.
 
#3,050 ·
I found a lot of my ancestory in a book put out by Pemmican press in Winnipeg, called "A Geneology of The First Metis Nation. It had my ancestors going back to the 1700's . I gave my dad a copy and he was up til daylight reading it. He knew a lot of the people in it including my great great grandfather born 1838 , died 1942, a buffalo hunter for 30 years. I met his son when he was 100, who grew up in Dumont's buffalo camps in the Cypress hills.
My Grandmothers mother was Cree her grandfather was Norwegian. We have geneology of the Norwegian connection going back to King Halvdan the Black year 722.
Library's closing.
 
#3,051 · (Edited)
Interesting. Certainly means you're entitled to have the rest of us support you in your old age. :rolleyes:

By the way Brent, any supposed genealogy that predates the Domesday book in 1086 is complete bull$hit. That was the first recorded census of any kind in Europe - there are no records of anyone other than royalty prior to that, so any supposed family connections that predate that are supposition or old wives tales. Even the Domesday book was only prominent people, not common serfs.
 
#3,153 ·
That's the BS part we have come to expect.

But give BS a break. He admits to having a problem with numbers.
You mean BS like the BS Bob Perry gave us, when he promised to post the pattern for his origami dinghy. No sign of it yet.
Must have been Bob Perry BS.

No shortage of that here.
King Halvdan the Black of Norway was royalty.
 
#3,054 ·
I'm feeling a little left out of all this, IRish/scotch came here in the 1850's 4 generations back, nothing aborig in that line. Dads mother was born in wales...........

His dad goes back in the states to the mid 1700's......again nothing with abo's.......then to germany......we think......altho spelling of last name is english not the german manner as in Eddie Bauer.......

Not sure about mom's dad, other than no one liked him. Altho may have been 1st generation born here from germans also.........hmmmmmmm......

So does being 2nd gneration born here in the NW count for anything?!?!?!? yeah, thought so....damg it!

Marty
 
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