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post #4743 of Old 10-18-2013
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Re: winner 900 / Pogo 30

Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Few times I have been so surprised as I was by this statement on that global test sail made by Voile magazine:

"Two boats are passing the buoys together, the Pogo 30 and the Winner 900????. Two boats with a very different conception: The Pogo 30 with a beamy modern powerful hull with a simplified interior and the winner with a much more classic hull with a much better interior. Unfortunately we could not judge definitively the performances between the two boats because the winner had not a spinnaker on board."

I have saw the Winner 900 in Dusseldorf, it seems a pretty classic cruiser, like the Dutch ones tend to be, but I would not take it for a very sportive boat, just a fast cruiser on the "old" style:

In fact they have three versions and I bet that the one that was tested with that Pogo 30 was the performance edition, the one on the movie, this one:

The boat is designed by Vand de Stadt design a denomination that pisses me because Vand de stadt passed long ago. The design really is from Cees van Tongeren.

When we look to the dimensions of the sportive version we understand that behind that classical look lays a pretty fast boat, specially upwind:

Length over all: 9.00 m
Waterline: 8.00 m
Width: 2.96 m
Draft: 1.90
Displacement: 3.10 ton
Ballast: 1.20 ton
Mainsail: 31m2

A lot of ballast on that sailboat and almost all in a torpedo at 1.90m is enough to give the power needed to drive fast that narrow hull that does not need a lot of sail.

This is a boat with a conception opposed to the Pogo 30. The weights are not that different (2800kg to 3100kg) but look at the beam (3.70m to 2.96m). the Pogo has a swing keel but it offers also a fixed torpedo keel with 1.90m. On the Pogo the B/D should be smaller as normally is in this type of boats versus narrower boats.

In the end with 6/8K the same speed upwind. I bet that I am not the only one surprised. I hope that they find this as interesting as I and make a full comparative test between the two boats since they could not compare the speeds downwind because the Winner had not a spinnaker.

Of course in high winds the Pogo downwind will start to plan much sooner and will go away but upwind with waves probably the winner will go away too.

Interesting stuff.

There is one thing that is far better on the Pogo interior: space and one that is much better on the winner, interior quality and charm.

Charm is too strong?

Just look at this interior:

Two great boats in their own way I would say
The Pogo 30 keeping up with the Winner 9.00 on an upwind track? In light winds this doesn’t surprise me that much.

The 30 is in fact almost a downsized 12.50 and also we can achieve an upwind VMG comparable to reputated upwind cruiser-racers of similar size, compensating height with speed by bearing down a little and going faster. This results in frustrating tacking angles on the plotter but in the end we reach the upwind mark at the same time, also thanks to the SA/D ratio.

That is: in good conditions such as on this test. Against a steep chop things become quite different because of wave drag, as Paulo very well explained much earlier in this thread.

Once again: we don’t dislike sailing upwind that much because of performance, but mostly because we know how much faster we will be on any other course. Because starting from a reach, trust me, any Pogo will soon be out of sight of almost any other production monohull.

On one condition, as Paulo stated: keep it light.
When the four of us cruised the 10.50, carrying my overweight and our two basketball center players of sons also not being light, plus cruising gear aboard and our luggage/stores for one week, we felt the boat was somewhat overloaded. Performance was very nice (12 k under spinnaker) but would certainly have been even better with a few hundreds of kilo’s less.

This (and headroom) made us decide for the 12.50, that of course accepts more load. But also on this much bigger boat, any load affects performance. That’s why we appointed our youngest son and most fanatic sailor as our “weight watcher” .

So we don’t carry an outboard indeed, not even a tender. The liferaft is only taken aboard for long passages (Pogo’s are unsinkable, so this item is only essential in case of fire and beyond reach of quick assistance). We only use one of the two water tanks (also because in these areas fresh water is always readily available, it rises the turnover and thereby diminishes contamination risks, and also for reasons of lateral weight balance: sails stored on starboard, water on port side). We even dismissed the lever shears because a good hacksaw with a sufficient number of high-grade blades is at least as efficient to cut shrouds in case of dismasting and much lighter.

By the way, we never race. It’s all only about the pleasure of sailing fast.
But of course it will be a completely different thing when we will be able to make our dream cruise to Scotland and the Hebrides. Then comfort will overrule speed and we certainly will carry all the stuff and even more (and probably make the boat a little more comfortable upwind).

And we do always have the music, fridge, stove 2 burners and even an oven, anchor (heavy one), lots of electronics (NKE) and additional storage (primary for clothes), Robelz! Plus heating, hot water, a shower and one single door closing the heads compartiment .

Concerning the Winner, I very much wonder how they manage to keep the weight down to 3.100 kg, with that traditional (=heavy) interior, high B/D ratio, hand-lay-up GRP (no infusion, only the deck is sandwich), steel frame, aluminium mast, wooden bulkheads etc.
Knowing how obsessed the guys of Structures are with weight (sandwich infused hull, deck, bulkheads, deep composite/lead keel, carbon mast, minimalistic interior, etc.), I find it very difficult to believe the Pogo would only weigh 300 kg less .

But one thing is for sure, the Winner 9.00 certainly must be an excellent boat and I look forward to reading the full report in Voiles Mag’.

Best regards,

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