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Sailing, safety, & size

28K views 216 replies 33 participants last post by  sneuman 
#1 ·
Hi all,

Over the last week, I have read a number of posts, here and other places, regarding not feeling safe in open water in smaller boats. Now days that seems to mean less then 35 ft!

How many out there equate size to safety? Does it have anything to do with it? If you think size does provide safety, why? What's the logic? :confused:

Do you feel safer in your home country, state? Or is it just in the head of the person making the judgment? After cruising Mexico for years, we feel safer there than in the US! (Excluding ALL boarder towns!)

I am currently reading a book, The Terrible Loyalty, by Sandy Moss. Jill and I met Dave Chamberlain (who the book is about) in the California Delta when we were cruising there a few months back. It's about the voyage of a 20 ft. boat from the West Coast to Hawaii. A very good read!

Disclosure;
I am a geezer and remember when a 32 ft. boat was a BIG ocean going boat! And, Jill and I have cruised on boats from 132 Ft. to our current Nor'Sea 27. We prefer our 27 to all of them.

I have never understood how or why people equate size to safety. Witness the Titanic! ;)

Greg
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Having also begun sailing when a 35 footer was a big cruising boat, at most levels, I understand the thrust of your point. But for better or worse, the concensus coming out of most studies on the factors that lead to a more seaworthy boats conclude that the one factor that consistently improve seaworthiness (all other factors being roughly equal) is greater length.

But I also understand that a badly designed longer boat won't be safer than a well designed smaller boat. I also understand that a larger boat can kill people when a smaller boat might simply bruise them. And I also understand that a longer boat in the hands of an inexperienced crew is likely be far less safe for that same crew on a smaller boat.

These things are never so simple that a simple rule can universally apply.

But the really good news is that you prefer the boat you own to all of the boats you have sailed before. To me the most joyful thing in life is being pleased with what you have.

Jeff
 
#3 ·
That's a lot of questions. but for offshore work, days from shelter, I think it's more a question of weight than size.

An ultra-light 40-footer is less safe than a 25' wooden Vertue, in my view.

So personally I would want enough displacement that the boat's motion in a sea won't beat me to death. What is that number? 6000 lbs? 10,000?? The Albin Vega at 5000, has a good reputation offshore. I wouldn't want to go less than that. more like 7000 (Triton) or 9000 (Pearson 30 or similar). Sail area/displacement and ballast/displacement ratios would also matter to me.

Your NorSea 27, at 8000 with 3000 ballast, is much more rugged than the Vega, though likely not as fast.

Every boat is a compromise. You like yours. other like theirs. But yes, more size alone isn't necessarily safer, or (especially) easier to handle the larger sails and forces.
 
#6 · (Edited)
That's a lot of questions. but for offshore work, days from shelter, I think it's more a question of weight than size.

An ultra-light 40-footer is less safe than a 25' wooden Vertue, in my view.

....
Sorry but I do not agree.





As Jeff as said it is complicated. It has to do with RM but also with dynamic stability. RM has to do with weight and GZ (the arm). Bigger boats have a bigger GZ so they have an advantage and they are also bigger proportionally to the wave size, that's another advantage in what regards dynamic stability.

An older and heavier small design can partially compensate the disadvantage to a bigger modern design because the weight contributes to the RM and this one to stability, but modern designs with much lower CG (that contributes to a bigger arm as well as the bigger beam) end up to have a better overall stability.

Note that between two boats with the same stability (the same area under the RM curve), one bigger and lighter, the other smaller and heavier the lighter one will recover much more quickly from a knock down assuming they have similar RM at 90Âş. The force that is pulling the boat up is the same, but the force needed to put an heavy boat back in its feet is mutch more than the one needed to right a much lighter one;)

That is just an important factor, there are much more about it but generally we can say that a bigger boat is safer and certainly it is if it is the same type of boat. I am assuming well designed and built boats as are most of the boats built today.

Regarding the case you have pointed out I have no doubt that a Pogo 12.50 is much more seaworthy than the old Vertue by a big margin even if the displacement is not very different.

Regards

Paulo
 
#4 ·
I am not a sailor. I am a technician and a lurker. I read, I learn. Safe? I would feel safer in a Vega in the middle of a storm than in a hotel room in a big city. What boat would make me feel safe to face any situation? An Australian or Argentinian ice breaker with crew should accomplish that. I am also an adrealin junkie. If a big warm teddy bear safety blanket is what you need, more power to you.
 
#5 ·
Design and quality of construction will dictate the safety of a small craft at sea, not size. There are a lot of boats under 35' I'd feel safe on, if not comfortable, at sea, and a huge number of poorly built larger boats that I wouldn't want to take to sea, at all. Just the other day, a Beneteau 50 lost her rudder off Martinique, offshore, not on a rock!
I've operated an 80' motorsailor that was absolute junk, built by Lancer. In fact a sister ship had a 12'X4' section of the hull that never completely set up.
I have sailed a Folkboat and a King's Cruiser, both excellent boats and only 27'.
If we are not talking about the operator here, then the size is of little consequence, if it is a well found vessel, designed for ocean sailing, IMO.
 
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#7 ·
To paraphase a famous ship designer: Any sucessful ship is a conglomeration of three factors, Design, Construction, Crew Ability. Any succesful ship's Design is the correct balancing of the ablillity to fullfill its intended use, with safety, and comfort. Which ship is right for you? I can't answer that; only you can say what is the balance you are most satisfied with. Is it the best one, here again, that is up to you.
 
#10 ·
At a certain point a boat is too small, gotta have a certain amount of rm and anything under say 22' loa prob just won't have it. When the boat broaches, it must have enough weight in the keel at 90 degrees to bring her back up while her crew is hanging off the lifelines.

After that, all the other factors will be more imp than just size.

But a smaller boat has to change sails sooner and is waaaaaay less comfortable than a bigger boat. However short handed, smaller sails and loads can be a good thing.
 
#13 · (Edited)
At a certain point a boat is too small, gotta have a certain amount of rm and anything under say 22' loa prob just won't have it. When the boat broaches, it must have enough weight in the keel at 90 degrees to bring her back up while her crew is hanging off the lifelines.
After that, all the other factors will be more imp than just size.
But a smaller boat has to change sails sooner and is waaaaaay less comfortable than a bigger boat. However short handed, smaller sails and loads can be a good thing.
OK then. So there's no way, a young Japanese man could have sailed from Japan to San Francisco on a 19 foot boat? Hum.....
If you say so.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Regarding reefing sails, not necessarily, I mean a bigger boat can have to reef first. It has to do with boat design and you are right regarding smaller sails and loads to be an advantage.

Regarding RM and big boats the biggest advantage is the relation of the boat total RM and the size of the wave: Generally it will be needed a bigger breaking wave to capsize a bigger boat (assuming it has a bigger total RM).

Regarding smaller sails, modern boats that are a lot less heavier than old ones need less sail area. A bigger modern boat can have the same amount of sail of a considerably smaller much more heavier boat.

As the OP had said today the typical cruiser boat, specially the ones that are used offshore are much bigger than 30 or 40 years ago but they are not more difficult to sail. They are more stable and we can do all reefing from the cockpit without going forward on a narrow smaller boat that is much more unstable than a much bigger beamier boat.

40 years ago it was unthinkable to sail solo a 50 or 60ft sailboat, even with a little help from the wife: too much efforts, too much difficulty. Today there are lots of couples there sailing boats like those, because it had become easy: Smaller sails (from the same size of boat), Jib on a traveler, all (easy) reefing from the cockpit and remote controlled winches took most of the effort of sailing and made easy big boats. Because big boats are more seaworthy have a better sea motion and are faster the market went that way, or should I say, cruisers went that way?

Also if we compare the prices of boats, not the price of 40 year old boats but the the price of the few heavy boats that are still made, or where till few years ago, we can see that the price of a boat (unless it is a race boat) has a strong relation with weight. Today you can have a bigger boat for almost the same price that it would cost to build a much smaller old designed heavy full keeler with the same weight. As I explained the lighter and bigger boat have many advantages.



Regards

Paulo
 
#12 ·
Today there are lots of couples there sailing boats like those, because it had become easy: Smaller sails (from the same size of boat), Jib on a traveler, all (easy) reefing from the cockpit and remote controlled winches took most of the effort of sailing and made easy big boats.

Yeah, you've gotta love that Push-Button Sailing, alright...

Especially, when you have to reach THROUGH the wheel to push them... :)

I've really come to detest these sort of helm consoles that require one to stick your hand/arm through the spokes of the wheel to do something, they seem to becoming more and more commonplace... A VERY poor/dangerous arrangement, especially in cold or foul weather when you might be more encumbered by heavier clothing or gloves... That plotter could be fun to fiddle with, in a seaway with the AP kicking the wheel sharply back and forth...

Just a matter of time before compasses disappear completely from modern boats... Presumably, this one is that circular shape over the companionway... Hell, as distant as that is from the helm, I'd have to pull out a pair of binoculars to read the card on that freakin' thing :)

I like the way Elaine Bunting said the boat is amazingly easy to sail, "as long as the systems are functioning..." :)

 
#20 ·
On my recent Block Island trip, we were 30 miles from shore when we lost all instruments, including chartplotter and AP. Turns out a leaky stanchion post shorted the entire system. We were able to re-wire at port and fix it, and we had a handheld GPS and magnetic compass to guide us back, but relying on anything electrical on a boat seems like a bad idea especially if you need electric winches just to take the sails down.

In-mast furling mains, which seem to be popular on bigger production boats now, scare the crap out of me. I have only been sailing a few years, but have had the need to drop sail NOW enough times to know how important it can be, especially coastally where there is a risk of running aground. It's hard enough to unjam a furling jib, I can only imagine a main where the sail is inside the mast.

That said, I guess enough people are out there sailing across oceans with electric winches and furling mains that they can't be so bad right?
 
#21 ·
I've commonly put 80,000 miles on an auto over 4 years. I would estimate that is about 1,600 hours of use. Typically no maintenance or failures other than wear items.

Pick any measure you like, miles, years or hours of use. There's no sailboat system in any size boat that has that kind of reliability, even brand new.
 
#22 ·
I've commonly put 80,000 miles on an auto over 4 years. I would estimate that is about 1,600 hours of use. Typically no maintenance or failures other than wear items.
Hmmm...80Kmiles in 1600 hours? That's 50 mph! Nobody drives like that.:D No wonder your car is so reliable. Now if you RACED your car like you do your boat every time you see a sloop edging up on you...:)
 
#29 ·
Folks, I'm not saying that nothing will last 1600 hours. Goodness, people hear what they want to hear. I'm saying that in 1600 hours in an automobile, its very common to have nothing go wrong. In 1600 hours on a sailboat, it's common to have something go wrong.

If you disagree, you're one lucky sailor. I don't know many that make it a single season without something going wrong.
 
#31 ·
Jon, I was not talking about race boats. Fact is that sailors here, I mean old retired couples are buying +50ft sailboats. They can only manage those boats because they have a lot of help from electric and hydraulic systems and they are buying the boats because they are reliable and they know it.

I am talking about mass production boats. Compared to cars the boat you were talking about would be a expensive modified high tech sports car, not a Mercedes and those are know to be fun but highly unreliable. A Mercedes would be that Halberg-Rassy that I had posted about;)

I bet that Trintella has more than 10 years. Am I wrong?

Regards

Paulo
 
#37 · (Edited)
Jon, I was not talking about race boats. Fact is that sailors here, I mean old retired couples are buying +50ft sailboats. They can only manage those boats because they have a lot of help from electric and hydraulic systems and they are buying the boats because they are reliable and they know it.
The Trintellas are not what I would consider Race Boats, in fact the 47 was chosen as Best Luxury Cruiser by CRUISING WORLD in 1998...



One of the features that wowed the crowd at the Annapolis Boat Show that year, was the hydraulic stern garage transom door, similar to this one on a 55: (Such arrangements have since become quite commonplace, of course... But back then, it generated plenty of Oohs and Ahhhs )



Another one of my favorite examples of the vaunted 'reliability' of such boats...

First time I took that 47 south for the owner, I arrive in Key West with a day to spare to catch a flight home for Christmas... After getting the boat secured in her slip at the Galleon Marina, I push the button to activate the transom door, to access the garage where shore power cords, and all the cleaning supplies are stowed...

Nothing happens...

Turns out all the mechanics of this system - electrical motors and hydraulic pumps - are contained within the garage, to which there is no access whatsoever from the deck level, or through the seat lockers - and no mechanical backup provision for releasing the door...

When the owner called the factory with this revelation, he said there was a lengthy 'pause' on the other end of the line :)

I had to leave the boat as it was, though fortunately was able to transfer all of the frozen/refrigerated food still aboard to the owner's motor yacht in the adjacent slip... Service people were eventually able to pry open the transom door, doing considerable damage in the process, and requiring a very expensive repair and Awlgrip job to the transom...

I bet that Trintella has more than 10 years. Am I wrong?
The 50 was about 2 years old at the time of the failure I described of the Leisure-Furl...
 
#32 ·
Can you really compare a car to a boat? My car doesn't have water tanks and hydraulic system, a bathroom, kitchen, complex navigation system, electrical system with numerous internal and external lights, sails and sail handling equipment and so on. Boat equipment might be reliable, but there is so much of it on a boat that something is always needing attention.
 
#35 ·
HMMMMMM

I think I have had only one car/truck with an auto that lasted more than 50K miles at an ave of 25mph in speed. Assuming my current truck with its odometer and hr meter are on par with previous rigs. That auto is the one in my current truck. All others have yet to go over 150K. Then again, most do not drive slow up steep grades etc. so anyway.

ANYTHING can break sooner than expected depending upon a lot of "what if's" if you will. Most of the breaks on a boat, truck, not sure what a car is?!?! but if some type of motorized vehicle, then things break when you overstress them in some way shape or form. If you overstress a lot, then things break sooner than later. City driving at higher gvwr's than one normally expect, things break! Alternators every 50-60K miles, starters in the same range.......pretty normal for my useage in trucks. Altho the last couple have been getting better mileage/hours if you will.

My boat on the other hand, yeah things have broken, need to be repaired, but name ANY type of vehicle, be it a boat or car that is 25+ yrs old, and something will be breaking!

Marty
 
#36 ·
If you have one simple system, the reliability is high, add another in line system and the reliability of the whole goes down. Add another simple system and once more, it drops.

Now take a complex system and add that into the string and things start to get sketchy, don't they?

Once more to the premise that a smaller, simpler boat can be a lot safer than a larger complex boat.

If you (and by you I am talking to the weakest member of the crew) can't handle the boat in BAD weather, by yourself, (if we are talking about a cruising couple) without electrics, HOW SAFE IS THAT BOAT?

Don't forget that when the car/truck breaks down, you pull off the side of the road and call AAA. Try that 500 miles “out there”!

Greg
 
#40 ·
Anyway, I'm not sure I would be comfortable handling a 55' sloop by myself relying on electric winches etc. But generally bigger has to be better for ocean sailing to a point. I find my fathers 32' sloop a handful when things go awry, compared to the 25 and 26 footers I usually sail on. The genny is work to tack. The masthead kite especially can load up, and the spin/whisker pole is quite heavy. There are ways to improve this boat for short handing, but dealing with a bigger genoa than this would be more than I would want to do. It's an argument for frac rigs, or cutter or ketch rigs, for sure...

That said, the difference in motion that a few feet of loa can provide is remarkable...

And bigger boats tend to have dodgers etc, and due to higher freeboard are generally drier to boot.

A mini 650 meets all the ISAF cat 2 safety requirements, and so long as the keel stays on it would be hard to find a safer ocean boat. A well built self-righting monohull that won't down flood in a broach, has up to date rigging etc, and the proper sail selection will be seaworthy almost regardless of size with a good skipper at the helm. Floating cork principal, gives me supreme confidence that no matter how bad I mess up out in open water, the most likely worst case scenario is I float on my side until I can release the sheet or halyard causing the problems. Racing teaches u that lesson well.

That said, being in a seaworthy floating cork isn't very comfortable and it takes a special kind of person to single hand a mini 650 transat :)
 
#42 ·
...

A mini 650 meets all the ISAF cat 2 safety requirements, and so long as the keel stays on it would be hard to find a safer ocean boat. A well built self-righting monohull that won't down flood in a broach, has up to date rigging etc, and the proper sail selection will be seaworthy almost regardless of size with a good skipper at the helm. Floating cork principal, gives me supreme confidence that no matter how bad I mess up out in open water, the most likely worst case scenario is I float on my side until I can release the sheet or halyard causing the problems. Racing teaches u that lesson well.

That said, being in a seaworthy floating cork isn't very comfortable and it takes a special kind of person to single hand a mini 650 transat :)
Peter, the Mini 650 (22ft) is one of the safest offshore boats.... for their size...but they are still waiting (for 15 days) for the weather to improve to start the mini-transat (high winds on the Biscay) while the Transat Jaques Fabre will start tomorrow with no problem for safety. It will be raced by racing Multihulls (50 and 70ft) and racing Monohulls (40 and 60ft).

That means that they consider a racing multihull with 50ft more seaworthy than the mini class racer monohull. I would say that a 40class racer is more seaworthy than those 50class racers and an Open 6o more seaworthy than a 40class racer. Any sailor that knows all those boats will say the same.

On the other hand I regard the last Jester challenge mostly with old small boats (less than 30ft) almost went to disaster with the majority of the boats having to retire from the race...and they are proposing a new one:rolleyes:

JC 2010 Entry List

JC 2014 Entry List

Regards

Paulo
 
#41 · (Edited)
When I started sailing, there was a rule of thumb that suggested that 2 1/2 to 5 long tons (5,500 lbs to 11,000 lbs) of displacement per person was ideal for a cruising boat. Obviously, a lot has changed in the 50 plus years since I started sailing such as better winches and lower friction hardware, better sail handling gear in general, lower drag hulls, higher relative stability hulls, and more efficient rigs. Offsetting the changes which make sailing easier, are changes which push the opposite direction. People expect a boat to be something 'closer to home' and so have a lot more stuff on board, and that requires more power and that adds weight, and that adds fuel and that adds weight, and that makes a longer boat. It used to be that the type of people who went to sea were pretty fit and rugged, but now people of all physical condition are going to sea, so as boats are getting bigger, perhaps physical strength and endurance is declining some. And all of these things tilt the symplicity, divided by ease of handling, multiplied by length and weight, equation one way or the other.

And of course as boats become further mechanized to deal with the above, they require more stored power, perhaps bigger battery banks, energy collectors, and fuel, and that adds weight and that again pushes towards bigger size and perhaps more complexity to handle that bigger size and weight.

Its a vortex that makes me dizzy just thinking about it.....

Jeff
 
#44 · (Edited)
... People expect a boat to be something 'closer to home' and so have a lot more stuff on board, and that requires more power and that adds weight, and that adds fuel and that adds weight, and that makes a longer boat. It used to be that the type of people who went to sea were pretty fit and rugged, but now people of all physical condition are going to sea, so as boats are getting bigger, perhaps physical strength and endurance is declining some. And all of these things tilt the symplicity, divided by ease of handling, multiplied by length and weight, equation one way or the other.

And of course as boats become further mechanized to deal with the above, they require more stored power, perhaps bigger battery banks, energy collectors, and fuel, and that adds weight and that again pushes towards bigger size and perhaps more complexity to handle that bigger size and weight.

Its a vortex that makes me dizzy just thinking about it.....

Jeff
Yes, that is quite true but I don't think that is going to go on an on. If you look at the market it seems to have stabilized between 45 and 65ft meaning that most cruisers if they could (if they had the money:D) would buy a boat of that size. The magical number seems to be between 50 and 56ft. Those boats can have an house like feel with all commodities and can take the extra weight without making them slow, are very seaworthy with a much better sea motion than a smaller boat. Some good examples, besides the HR 64 that I have posted regarded the ideal cruising boat on the European imaginary:











There are another (smaller) tendency that prefers smaller simpler and faster offshore cruising boats, but not that small:D. I would say they would see the ideal cruising boat between 43 and 60ft, I mean if they had the money to have one. Those boats also use electric winches and wireless commands but in a much smaller scale in what regards the first ones:







There other (even smaller) tendencies in what regards the ideal cruising boat but not really anything smaller than 40fts if we consider any significant tendency. Normally ideal voyage boats tend to be smaller than the others between 44 and 56ft or at least it is what the market shows.





All these boats are designed to be sailed by a couple and that would be unthinkable some decades ago. That is only possible now due to advances in technology and motorized equipment that takes the effort out of sailing.

I don't say that I like it or at least all of it, specially in what regards the first type of boats that I would discard immediately even if I had all the money in the world, but they are without doubt the ones that are most present as the ideal cruiser for most European sailors, have them the money to have them.

Regards

Paulo
 
#45 ·
In reading a lot of the replies, I get the idea that the “feeling” of safety at sea, or the choice of what boat to go to sea in, is drastically influenced by the age of, and actual experience of the posters.

Greg
 
#47 ·
In reading a lot of the replies, I get the idea that the "feeling" of safety at sea, or the choice of what boat to go to sea in, is drastically influenced by the age of, and actual experience of the posters.

Greg
Off course, but most of all is influenced by the budget available and a small cruiser is certainly better that no cruiser at all;)

I would say that for sailing a smaller boat offshore one has to be more experienced and more fit than to cruise a modern much bigger boat offshore.

Regards

Paulo
 
#51 ·
Greg, was the “twenty footer” you mentioned the Cal 20, “Black Feather”, or was it the WWP named “Tubby”? I’ve seen the former at South Beach before the race and attended the talk on Tubby at BYC. Both were pretty amazing voyages, but twenty days of nothing but canned ravioli isn’t quite my style. I have been knocked down (Boom or masthead in the water) twice in a 22 footer and twice in 38 footers. If the recovery from this is an indication of safety, I’ll take a 38 footer any time. I have yet to get even close to getting knocked down in anything over 40 feet. The fellow in Oregon who is looking for a sailboat isn’t experienced enough to really know what he wants and is getting unduly influenced by the beauty pageant known as “what is the best boat for…”. As you know from your experience in sailing the Gulf of the Farallones, the ability to make speed needed to climb waves and safely navigate in high sea states is an important safety factor. Holding all other variables the same that means water line length. Smaller waterlines means shorter masts. Which means losing airflow over the sails when the boat is in a trough, just when you need the drive to climb over the next wave isn’t much fun.

A lot of these discussions degenerate in the proverbial “beauty pageant” rants that assume a lot of personal criteria, not exactly germane to safety. I see the move to ever larger cruising boats as one more to do with comfort than anything else. Bigger boats mean bigger tankage. Or water makers. Or both. Water makers and SSBs mean alternative sources of electrical generation. Mrs. B loves to sail, but the deprivations resulting from too many crew, too small of a boat isn’t going to work (she is also a Baja vet). Longer waterline gives you more space to store stuff. How do you guys manage all that stuff? Anyone have the courage to post an interior photo three days in on a five day passage? I certainly don’t.
 
#53 ·
Greg, was the "twenty footer" you mentioned the Cal 20, "Black Feather", or was it the WWP named "Tubby"? <Snip>
George,

The small one I was talking about is "Mini". You can see it at Dave's web site at;
Home

We had a GREAT time talking to him, and the author of the book about his voyage, Sandy Moss. I love going to talks, or even just watching videos of cruisers. Not the short time guys who get a boat, drive it fast, post a blog, then dump it in a few months to a year, but the people who head out far, like Ed & Ellen on Entr'acte who built there boat from a kit ( Ellen and Ed sail around the world in their NorSea 27 Entr'acte ) or Lealea here on the the board.

We agree 20 ft is a bit small for us, but we have talked about a 15 to 20 ft as a "summer home" for cruising places for short time periods.

I think knock down recovery is sure something to think about! But I also think it's different for each boat. That is, because one 35 footer works well, another may not. It's more than just waterline. We took one on our way south along the Baja. A rogue his us broadside. We had the aft end of the boom and spreaders in the water, but not the mast top. Was at 0200, why does everything happen then????? :eek: Sure got our attention! We were clipped in, the cockpit, with Jill in the foot well, looked like a jacuzzi! NOT FUN! But we got less than a cup of water below, and she righted her self in seconds. I think our 8 foot beam helped a lot here.

You know, I have to search my memory about loosing wind in the trough? It just does not come up in my mind that it was a problem. I will think about it and see if Jill remembers any thing about it.

You know, as we cruised, we NEVER met ANY boat that did not have so much junk it took up a full storage area. By junk, I am not talking trash, just stuff like spares etc...

I agree, bigger boats do have bigger tanks, but then, they use more fuel! And with the added weight of the junk, use even MORE fuel. Never met a true cruising boat "out there" that was not over loaded, no matter the length! I think we carry about the same, size for size. We are trying hard to pair down now that we have been. We do have a reefer/ice maker, water maker, SSB, HAM, 50 inch TV (LED projector), Etc... We do NOT camp out on board. Guenevere is our home. I don't think we would have a problem with a post an interior photo three days in on a five day passage? As long as it was of the forward cabin, not our aft cabin!

I LOVE YOUR WORDS; "beauty pageant" rants! Sure fits. :D

Greg
 
#56 ·
It would be great if I had enough money to freely pick whatever boat I like in order to keep my rear end safe while at sea. Whatever I lack in purchasing power I will have to make up in my seamanship skills and prudent decision making. But I do appreciate all the comments and opinions of all the experiences sailors here. I will definitely buy the biggest solid boat I can afford, which for me will be something in the 30 to 35 ft range. Instinctively, I prefer smaller boats because this is what I have ever sailed and I know I can handle them even when things get hairy, but size definitely matters and there has to be a happy median somewhere.
 
#58 ·
“Safety” is an interesting concept. Given the right set of conditions, even a Mac power sailboat falls within the “safe” parameter. “Safety” becomes a sliding scale as the sea state and wind conditions increase. As Paulo said previously, holding all the other variables equal (build quality, principal ratios, etc.), a boat with a longer water line will be in that “safe” zone longer as conditions deteriorate. For example, I used to sail my 22 out of Santa Cruz and a weekend jaunt down to Monterey would sometimes feel like sailing in the Southern Ocean. The same conditions in my 34 is now a “fun romp”.

Yes, we ideally should pick an appropriate weather window to build in as much safety margin as we can, but we don’t always have that perfect crystal ball prediction. A wise general once told me “George, sometimes the battlefield chooses you”. When that happens all you have to rely on is your skills as a sailor and the safety margin built into your boat. By having to engage an engine to power-tack your way in a high sea state you are beginning to dig into that margin. Using our Oregon friend as an example. Safety for him is the ability to claw his way off a lee shore. What would afford more safety margin – a boat with a tighter tacking angle, or a boat with a bigger engine?

Ideally, we would all be like Paulo and be able to afford a million dollar boat equipped with all the latest gizmos and gadgets. But that’s not going to happen. For me, the “size matters” equation tappers off pretty dramatically at around forty feet. Beyond that, things just get too big and heavy to manage on my own. I want to be able to do a headsail change or spinnaker gybe with a pole that I can manage. Certainly, there are plenty of smaller boats that also have that safety margin built into them, but then the issue of crew comfort, tankage, and carrying capacity comes into play. These may be my criteria, but certainly not the only criteria.

Greg, in the great continuum of cruising boats, both your 27 and my 34 are in the same small boat category. As my Mexico sojourn is only a couple of years away, I am interested in learning more from you and Jill (I’m enjoying your website). I’ve got a lot of questions and would like to dialog further.
 
#59 ·
"Safety" is an interesting concept. Given the right set of conditions, even a Mac power sailboat falls within the "safe" parameter. ......

Greg, in the great continuum of cruising boats, both your 27 and my 34 are in the same small boat category. As my Mexico sojourn is only a couple of years away, I am interested in learning more from you and Jill (I'm enjoying your website). I've got a lot of questions and would like to dialog further.
George,

I completely agree about "Safety" and it being a concept. That's partly why I started the thread. I can't count the number of times people ask how we could possibility go to sea in our boat! They always come back with something to the effect that you need a much bigger boat to go. I see so many people that equate size to safety. We know if proper boat, with proper prep and a proper crew, what ever those may be.....

The time I engaged the engine was due to the wave period, not wave height. Jill and I put a LOT more credence in the period! We can handle ANY size wave (as long as it's not breaking) if the period is long enough. And we were starting out and wanted to make a harbor rather than head out to sea, a tactic we have done since then. We try to learn at every opertunity.

I was pondering this all week and it came to mind that the ONE craft that every one goes to when all else fails, is the life raft! Comfort is out, but you are safe. And it's the smallest craft. I just don't think I would like to try to voyage in one.

In fact, for us we spent way more time, orders of magnitude, in calm conditions than in storms!

WOW, to bad we did not talk sooner. We recently finished up our SF Bay area cruise. Spend a few months there in the Bay and Delta. Was in the Alameda yacht club for a Nor'Sea get together. I actually gave a short talk there. We could have had a gam. We are now in prep to head to New Orleans early next February for the BIG party, then cruise on over to the west coast of Fla.

We would be happy to share any info we have on our Mexico romp. We spent years there after planning to only stay a couple of month. But our info may be getting dated. One thing we agree on, we had a GREAT time. We met many people had circumnavigated and were back there, stating that is was the BEST cruising place!

Greg
 
#60 ·
Nine times out of ten the conditions will range from the benign to boring. However, that tenth time is the one that is noteworthy and besides, we want to safely make harbor ten out of ten times and not merely nine out of ten. Being a San Francisco/ Norcal kind of guy, I do tend to focus on that “tenth” time as our prevailing conditions make for snotty weather more like six out of ten times. I think I had more days this year in 25-35kts of breeze than I did days under 20 kts. When I race the family Catalina in offshore races I have a hard stop at when NOAA predicts periods in seconds less than swell height in feet when swells are over ten feet. Anything less than that and the waves tend to break in the Gulf of the Farallones.

My racing buddies like to give me a hard time about owning a wildly inappropriate boat too. I know that the Nor’ Seas have a loyal following and are a pretty salty boat too. (Isn’t there a guy on this BB who has done the Hawaii thing?) We were just down the Estuary at Marina Village and I would have loved to buy you a beer at EYC. Maybe next time. What I really want to focus on is the outfitting and boat prep here. We have several friends who live in Mexico and I have tons of bread crumb trails and marked waypoints for my chart plotter. I’d like to pick your brain on what worked for you, what would have been a neat thing and what was a waste of storage space.

For example, awnings, dodgers and biminis. We currently have a dodger and a “cruiser awning” that zips into the dodger and ties into the back stay. I’m thinking of getting a framed dodger that would collapse onto the back stay and a zippered transitional piece. Our canvas work is “royal blue”, your thoughts? Also, what do you think of the cruiser curtains? I noticed that you had a big curved awning that went over the boom. Should we make an awning to fit over the forepeak? Where and how did you store all the awnings? Fire away.
 
#61 ·
I'd like to pick your brain on what worked for you, what would have been a neat thing and what was a waste of storage space.

For example, awnings, dodgers and biminis. We currently have a dodger and a "cruiser awning" that zips into the dodger and ties into the back stay. I'm thinking of getting a framed dodger that would collapse onto the back stay and a zippered transitional piece. Our canvas work is "royal blue", your thoughts? Also, what do you think of the cruiser curtains? I noticed that you had a big curved awning that went over the boom. Should we make an awning to fit over the forepeak? Where and how did you store all the awnings? Fire away.
Should we start a new thread?
Something like Sea of Cortez bound?
Start it and I will follow and post. Most likely you will also get more info than just us can provide. :)

Greg
 
#65 · (Edited)
You got it wrong Casey, there was nothing wrong with the boat and they say so on the video.



The boat was sailing with all that sail because it could handle and be stable with all that sail. On the movie you can see that the skipper reduces sail (between the beginning and the end of the movie). The crew was only one guy, the family could not help , two women that didn't know how to sail and a small child. They say the boat was his new baby and clearly he had not experience to sail alone that boat.

They say he was exhausted!!!! All he had to do was to close the boat put a floating anchor out and wait the storm to pass. Anyway for what I can see and the amount of sail the boat carried there was no need for that at that moment. The boat was sailing alright.

Clearly a terrified family that had thought that the sea was always a nice place and that had enough of bad weather (and the worst was yet to come) and wanted out.

Do you think they would be better or safer in a smaller boat, maybe a 27ft boat? That's plain crazy.

This was clearly a case where the boat could take a lot more than the crew.

Some buy a 50 or 60ft boat and think that the boat is so big that it will always be comfortable or that the boat can take any sea and even if it is obvious that a big boat will be safer than a much smaller one, there is conditions that can be dangerous even for a much bigger boat than that one.

The big and important question is what the hell was doing that boat there?

They certainly had information about the weather. That is the capital error and the one that shows the inexperience of that skipper, more than the fact the had abandoned a perfectly sound boat just because he was tired.

Why he did not put the family safe and stayed on that boat on a floating anchor? Surely he had one and if not, well he is the one to blame, not the boat.

Regards

Paulo
 
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