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Rallies Gone Wrong

128K views 960 replies 76 participants last post by  xort 
#1 ·
#464 ·
We have a new-to-us Pearson 422 we keep at HHN in Deale. Same hull as the 424 but with a center cockpit. We've been in the refit process for 2 years and are now hopefully approaching the final stages. Unfortunately, also the expensive stages - we're repowering this winter. Ouch, ouch, ouch.
 
#467 ·
I'm actually on Galveston Bay. And yeah, like you, we (me and my two young sons) are planning a run across to Florida, then down through the islands in summertime hops over the next 3 years (before the oldest finishes HS).

So, maybe we can share some pig and booze in the BVIs while dissing rallies! Heh-heh.
 
#469 ·
Announcing the SPDB - SmackPaperDaddyBird - Rally --- BVI or Bust!! :)

(I thought about PSBD, but PaperSmackBird paints an ugly picture in my mind's eye.)
 
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#473 ·
This thread is still going???

Perhaps there should be an ISAF special regulation on beating dead horses :)
Considering the various divergent discussions covered here, I think 'thread' is a misnomer. I was considering other descriptions to use - web, net, tapestry - but those imply an order or regularity not found here, so I think I'll go with 'tangle'. :)
 
#477 · (Edited)
In the above referenced article in Ocean Navigator the statement by the weather router Ken McKinley

"The idea that weather routers have "aided and abetted" the notion that sailors can go voyaging without ever facing a gale at sea is mildly offensive to me."

when referring to John Harries statement in his blog post is very interesting and John's statement was actually an understatement.

For the last month I have, over my morning coffee sitting in a lovely Caribbean anchorage, been listening to Chris Parker's webcast which starts at 06:00 EST.

GreenLight Web

Chris Parker's information is excellent and when you follow on the internet while you have the synoptic and grib files open on your computer you can see the accuracy of the information but you can also follow the type of cruisers that use his information.

Chris Parker had three types of listener/on the webcast and the SSB transmissions:

1) Cruisers seeking information

2) Cruisers seeking advice

3) Cruisers seeking permission to leave the dock.

One cruiser actually needed confirmation that it was safe to undertake a 15 mile trip in protected waters on a sunny day. Another in a cruising cat needed a day when they could cross from Miami to Bimini motor sailing in near calm seas.

I do not fault cruisers who are cautious but I do fault cruisers who do not even develop the skills to sail the 50 nm from No Name Harbor to Bimini, across the Gulf Stream, utilizing the excellent weather data supplied by NOAA. It is obvious that the weather routers do in fact aid and abet this lack of ability and unrealistic expectations of the weather they might encounter.

Phil
 
#478 · (Edited)
3) Cruisers seeking permission to leave the dock.

One cruiser actually needed confirmation that it was safe to undertake a 15 mile trip in protected waters on a sunny day. Another in a cruising cat needed a day when they could cross from Miami to Bimini motor sailing in near calm seas.
Yes, it can be pretty stunning, at times...

One of the best I can recall, is someone asking Chris' blessing to move from Staniel Cay in the Exumas, just down to Little Farmers... On a picture perfect day...

And, no, not via Exuma Sound, but rather in the lee of Great Guana Cay...

One can only marvel at the fact they made it that far, to begin with... :)

Haven't heard anyone yet ask Chris for guidance re some of the more open stretches of the ICW, but it's probably just a matter of time...
 
#481 ·
Looks like this thing is headed toward 500 posts. There's been a lot of discussion about weather routers, vessel readiness, departure timing, etc etc. I tend to consider most of those things givens. One of the more interesting outcomes (to me) of this, worth further investigation is the number of rudders that fell off or were damaged. I wonder what part the use/reliance of Auto-helms in a rough, confused sea played into that.

One thing I am pretty sure of, is that captains and crews must be able to "honestly" assess their physical fitness, endurance and mental toughness to withstand adverse conditions for extended periods of time ( hand steering if necessary). Physical fitness, to me also means that you are not prone to getting seasick and have tested that over time.

Losing 30 to 50 % of your crew to seasickness wears on the remaining crew's reserves pretty quickly.
 
#482 · (Edited)
Looks like this thing is headed toward 500 posts. There's been a lot of discussion about weather routers, vessel readiness, departure timing, etc etc. I tend to consider most of those things givens. One of the more interesting outcomes (to me) of this, worth further investigation is the number of rudders that fell off or were damaged. I wonder what part the use/reliance of Auto-helms in a rough, confused sea played into that.

One thing I am pretty sure of, is that captains and crews must be able to "honestly" assess their physical fitness, endurance and mental toughness to withstand adverse conditions for extended periods of time ( hand steering if necessary). Physical fitness, to me also means that you are not prone to getting seasick and have tested that over time.

Losing 30 to 50 % of your crew to seasickness wears on the remaining crew's reserves pretty quickly.
Great points Temp. We saw both of these issues on our recent off-shore run. As I mentioned in my write up on that, we had seas of 8'-12' for the first 10 hours or so on our forward starboard quarter (leftovers from a storm in the Gulf - the wind was only 20 knots or so). The first issue was seasickness. Both my boys got sick in the first hour - and I got sick for the first time ever. I was over it in a couple of hours, but the boys were out for most of the first day. It's definitely an issue to plan for - not discover in the middle of a 2-week run.

We also ran into AP issues. On the second day, the boat suddenly rounded up (it had been on AP the entire way). We hand steered it back to our course and reset the AP (a linear drive). It immediately rounded up again. So we hand-steered until the skipper came back on watch. While he was driving, the wheel locked up. I opened the lazarette and found the cause of all of it...the AP had broken off its base and was flopping around the locker.

Obviously a rudder failure is a much. much bigger deal than this - but it sure showed me that there is a tremendous amount of force in play in seas like that. Something I'm going to consider in the future.

(PS - Anyone know the specifics of if/why the AP would damage the rudder in such seas - whereas hand-steering would be more likely not to? I assume that there is natural "give" in the hand-steering, where the AP has none?)
 
#488 · (Edited)
Hmmm, 99% seems like extremely favorable odds, a virtual guarantee of 'safety', seems to me... Hell, why bother with weather routers, or even paying attention to the weather at all, with the percentages that much in your favor, and the probality that there will only be ONE day between Labor Day and Thanksgiving that might be unsafe to depart Newport for Bermuda? I doubt any reputable router would claim a to be spot on 99% of the time, after all...

I certainly get what you're saying, and know that's not exactly what you're suggestiing... It just seems that figure might be a bit high, when applied to an offshore passage like that from the East coast to the Caribbean, in November...

On the other hand, perhaps 95% is a bit more accurate? That's the rough percentage of the Salty Dawg fleet - despite the absence of ISAF-based inspections - that DID actually manage to complete their voyage successfully, after all... :)
 
#497 ·
I would guess that a weather router adds value to the weather equation, but that value is proportional to the routers expertise. With the internet, today we can look at raw data from a multitude of data points, we can read directly NOAA reports, and we can listen to the many weather guessers, but how do you develop the ability to integrate all this data into an accurate forecast?
The time domain is also a major factor in usefulness of weather prediction. So, if you want to leave port for a destination ten or so days away, it really becomes a big time problem for those dependent upon fair weather, say less than force six or seven. Once committed to a trip like SDR one will have to deal with the weather one gets, and that is where captain, crew and equipment makes the difference.


I think you guys have been beating each other over the head saying this very thing all the time talking past each other. ISAF regulations or your own set of standards for equipment developed through research an experience are just fine, but offer no guarantee that nothing will fail. Your experience is always a value addition to the equation, but is no guarantee you will not make a mistake, use poor judgement or find yourself in danger.
I think that without final incident reports we know not who, what, when, how and why those boats got into trouble. What was the mix of weather, equipment or competence for each incident? It would be nice if the SDR people could (would) get the final incident reports, conduct some interviews and publish a lessons learned on their website.
One issue the whole Atlantic cruising establishment needs to address is the November 1st departure issue. That seems a pretty straight forward the source of weather issues and clouds the question of when to leave.
Oh well, just trying to extend this discussion to 500 posts.
John
 
#498 ·
I think you guys have been beating each other over the head saying this very thing all the time talking past each other.
You said it brother. But hey, what else is there to do? It's the Christmas season, so we have to beat on each other's heads! At least I'm using a tightly rolled ISAF manual...with a roll of quarters in the middle.
 
#503 · (Edited)
For post 503 let me summarise this thread.

You can't fix stupid.

Rallies do not make cruising unsafe.
Weather routers do not make cruising unsafe.
Bad weather should not make cruising unsafe.
Stupid people making stupid decisions make cruising unsafe.

AND Increased regulation has not and cannot fix stupid.

The skipper is responsible for the safety of his vessel and crew. Period. Above all else, aside form all else. This is the beginning and the end.

You may use special regs or whatever other source you have elected to inform your safety decisions. You may choose to enter a rally or not. You may then choose to leave on the 'rally date' or not. You may use the services of a weather router. Or not. You may have or have not gotten 'qualifications' and attended courses of different kinds and levels and feel that this will make you immune from stupid. However if you NEED anyone other than yourself to make decisions for you, or to tell you that to blindly follow is dumb, then you have no place skippering a boat offshore.

(I am not in any way calling any of the participants of the Salty Dawg Rally who ran into trouble stupid incidentally, I do not know the individual circumstances well enough. This is a general comment on the issues raised in this thread)
 
#504 · (Edited)
For post 503 let me summarise this thread.

You can't fix stupid.
LOL! Well, in my effort to summarize, I'd say this is my takeaway:

There is no substitute for Experience...

And, just to put all this hand-wringing over the abandonment of 2 boats out of a rally fleet of 120+ into some perspective... :)

The ISAF-inspected fleet of 55 in the 1998 Caribbean 1500 lost 2 boats as a result of their encounter with the Phoenix that arose from the remnants of Hurricane Mitch...



Both losses primarily due to, IMHO, a lack of experience of the crews, or their ability to physically deal with the conditions encountered...

A couple of good reads here, written in the aftermath... One cannot help but be astonished at the number of crews that set out on such a passage without ever once before having attempted to heave-to, or that some boats were fitted with windvanes that were either not rigged, or had never been used before... That sort of stuff says it all, to me...

HEAVY-WEATHER SAILING: Remembering Hurricane Mitch

The Loss of 'Kampeska' - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
 
#533 · (Edited)
Without knowing on the ground details about the SDR or speaking to it specifically, I actually believe rallies can be a great part of the mix of ways to learn and gain experience cruising. We have both spent time sailing with others offshore and have also done more formal training, but on top of that we have also taken part in a rally and found it was a great fun way to meet some more experienced cruisers, ask them questions and pickup a thing or two. Briefings and weather information were also a good help and it was a bit of fun.

Even being relative newbies at the time we weren't silly enough to just follow blindly and indeed on more than one occasion made decisions contrary to the majority. Rallies aren't for everyone, we probably won't do too many more but I fail to see them being a 'great evil' tricking ma and pa suburbia to sail off into the ocean naively.

Do people not know there are big waves out there? Really?? And that is SDR's fault?
 
#535 ·
A new rally for the East Coast folks. Future fodder for the SN paparazzi. Hurry up regulators, your time is limited in making a difference.

You are here: Home / Countries / USA / ARC DelMarVa: A new rally for East Coast USA
ARC DelMarVa: A new rally for East Coast USA
By World Cruising Club — last modified Dec 18, 2013 08:37 PM
World Cruising Club will have a new addition to the World Cruising Club USA portfolio in 2014 thanks to teaming up with SpinSheet Magazine to host ARC DelMarVa.

Published: 2013-12-18 00:00:00
Topics: Rallies
Countries: USA
ARC DelMarVa: A new rally for East Coast USA

This week long cruise discovers the highlights of the Chesapeake Bay and takes sailors around the DelMarVa peninsula, starting and finishing in Annapolis, MD.

Divided into three legs, boats will sail close to 450 nm into Delaware Bay, including an offshore passage. Safe and Social cruising will be at the heart of the event, with briefings, parties and expert support from the World Cruising Club team
 
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#536 ·
A new rally for the East Coast folks. Future fodder for the SN paparazzi. Hurry up regulators, your time is limited in making a difference.

You are here: Home / Countries / USA / ARC DelMarVa: A new rally for East Coast USA
ARC DelMarVa: A new rally for East Coast USA
By World Cruising Club - last modified Dec 18, 2013 08:37 PM
World Cruising Club will have a new addition to the World Cruising Club USA portfolio in 2014 thanks to teaming up with SpinSheet Magazine to host ARC DelMarVa.

Published: 2013-12-18 00:00:00
Topics: Rallies
Countries: USA
ARC DelMarVa: A new rally for East Coast USA

This week long cruise discovers the highlights of the Chesapeake Bay and takes sailors around the DelMarVa peninsula, starting and finishing in Annapolis, MD.

Divided into three legs, boats will sail close to 450 nm into Delaware Bay, including an offshore passage. Safe and Social cruising will be at the heart of the event, with briefings, parties and expert support from the World Cruising Club team
I just hope the WCC has the stones to mandate Magmas on each rail. Someone's gonna get hungry out there.
 
#545 ·
The gallymate has also been known to be used as an anchor for frustrated CQR users. Extensive testing as a heavy weather para type anchor are currently underway. With a new crop of down under rally goers (sail indonesia) arriving shortly the supply will be endless.
 
#546 ·
Just read a great article in SAIL magazine by Peter Nielsen regarding the SDR and C1500. It's called "Group Think". Here's the takeaway:

The C1500 organizers, with their European risk-management-style insistence on strict safety protocols, started their rally a day early, on the weather router's advice, to beat the two fronts bearing down on the Chesapeake. The Salty Dawg people, whose rally was founded in response to the rigid safety requirements of the C1500, take a laissez-faire approach that places the onus for preparation and decision-making on the individual skippers. Rightly so, you may say, and I would usually be the first to agree, as the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain.

But of all the reasons to join a flock of other boats in an organized blue water rally, surely the notion of safety is one of the strongest. I suspect that the passage that lay ahead of the skippers in the Salty Dawg and the C1500 would be the longest most of them had undertaken, and faced with the unfamiliar, there is certainty of comfort in company, and at least the illusion of safety in numbers.
Exactly.
 
#547 · (Edited)
Just read a great article in SAIL magazine by Peter Nielsen regarding the SDR and C1500. It's called "Group Think". Here's the takeaway:

But of all the reasons to join a flock of other boats in an organized blue water rally, surely the notion of safety is one of the strongest. I suspect that the passage that lay ahead of the skippers in the Salty Dawg and the C1500 would be the longest most of them had undertaken, and faced with the unfamiliar, there is certainty of comfort in company, and at least the illusion of safety in numbers.
Exactly.
Wow, is he really SERIOUS with that last bit?

I don't know, sure sounds pretty wishy-washy, to me... A couple of grand seems a lot to fork over to the WCC in a feel-good concession to the notion of safety, in order to obtain the placebo of comfort of sailing in company, and the pleasant illusion provided in drinking the Safety in Numbers Kool-Aid...

Illusion, or Delusion? What does it matter, right? Hey, whatever it takes to get the reluctant spouse to set sail for Paradise, I suppose... :)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what he's getting at, but it sure sounds to me like he's pretty much in agreement with what I wrote here in another thread on rallies over a year ago:

In my observation/interaction with offshore rally participants, the primary motivation for plunking down that sort of cash appears to be an effort to assuage the fears of their spouses, and caving into their mistaken belief that there is anything resembling "safety in numbers" during the course of an offshore passage... Simpler to just pay for the Placebo Effect, I suppose, than to acknowledge the simple reality that if you have any real doubts about your ability or confidence to undertake a bluewater passage on your own, well... then you're not ready, PERIOD...

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/956155-post10.html
 
#551 ·
I liked the "illusion" part. Plenty of smoke and mirrors being used by the marketers to create the "illusion" of the cruising fantasy.
 
#554 · (Edited)
White shirts and shorts, Biff and Muffy on the helm...
...Biff already grey and balding :p

I love sailing (and know it gets... unpleasant) but I do have to laugh at the targeted advertising. It's like every yacht advertisement is focused on my parents. Some of us looking at buying a yacht have a full crop of hair, no grey in it, and like the trophy wife in the white swimsuit to be at least as young as we are ;) :p
 
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