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Never Buy a New Hanse

30K views 113 replies 31 participants last post by  tdw 
#1 ·
Save yourself any aggravation by not buying a new Hanse. We bought a Hanse 400 last year and had it delivered from Germany to Portugal. After being in the marina for 11 months, we had it taken out of the water to have the bottom cleaned before our cruise into the Mediterranean. A 12-inch crack was discovered on the rudder--a clear case of warranty, right? Not from Hanse's point of view. They refused to pay for the 1000-euro repair, along with approximately another 1000 euroes' worth of repairs on the voyage which should have been covered by the warranty. This is a company that values the bottom line over customer satisfaction, an attitude that permeates the company all the way to the CEO, whom I emailed.
 
#37 ·
Dear Helen and Frank, this is primarily an American message board and to the best of my recollection you may be the first to write on depth on purchasing a new boat in Europe. There are major differences between automobile dealers and boat brokers. In the USA (at least for the Catalina Company) the broker you bought the boat from is responsible for commissioning and warranty repair. They reserve a portion of your purchase price to do this work. Hanse (or in my case, Catalina) will assist the broker technically and will actually “bill” the broker directly if the factory has to supply a replacement part. That is probably why the CEO of Hanse declines responsibility as the boat passed out of his ownership when delivered to the broker. Selection of the right broker is almost as important as the boat “brand”. Your only real course of action is to sue the broker in bankruptcy court for your repairs. Your chances of prevailing against Hanse in court is a lot smaller and you will need to employ the services of a good German Lawyer who can navigate the complex German commercial code. Sadly, you may just have learned an expensive lesson. I apologize for the juvenile comments made by some of the posters. Some do not know when it is time for being serious and when to be frivolous.
 
#43 ·
Oh, come on. Mr Frankschicketanz or whatever his name is, is fooling us.

We have asked for some facts. Age, who dilivered where, and so on. But no facts so far.

But what we have seen is that the statement on "11 months in harbour" is not correct. No, it has been sailing, maybe in the Med. Maybe the boat was actually picked up in the Med , from the agent, the famous "SüdOst Yachting" (for our americans friends, SüdOst Germany is quite close to the Med around Italy).


As the model actually is old, at least 2 years, you have bought an old model. From a agent who has gone burst. Maybe delivery was somewhere in the NorthEast Med, from which you now have sailed home to Lagos in Portugal after some adventures.
(bit far from the 11 month in harbour).

Warranty ... very doubtful there is anting left. Then you have been sailing with some accidents. Happens to everyone.

But why, och why, do you expect the manufacturer to fix this? Even if there is a fabrication fault, the boat is most likely beyond warranty, in particular after some groundings.

You have most likely got a very good deal when you bought an old model, still a considerable sum. Then you have an annual cost, guess this is in the range €5,000 - €10,000. The cost for this repair is just a fraction of your annual cost, why do you insist so much?

My conslusion is you are trying to fool Hansa, and when that doesn't work, you are trying to fool us, and go on with some rather extensive flaming.

Doesn't work pal. Not at all.

I reiterate my recommendation: get the rudder fixed, and sail on. Have a whiskey in your cockpit and enjoy life. Forget about these matters with the rudder.

You seem to have a lovely family, and a very nice boat. Enjoy!

/J
 
#44 ·
All cheaply built production boats have issues, that is a given. What bothers me is the crappy CS from the factory, they did a poor job and wont stand behind their product, this is reason enough never to purchase from them. It is clearly a manufacture defect but again an easy fix and I agree have a glass of scotch move on. :)
 
#46 · (Edited)
I do this for a living and that appears to be a **** job from the factory. There is no evidence indicating anything other than a crappy build, yet another reason not to purchase a cheap **** production boat. That being said it is an easy and cheap repair. Fix it for get it and sail on my friend.
Hmm, you can tell that from one photo, huh? What exactly do you do for a living? Are you a boat builder or a surveyor?

To me it also looks like it could have been water intrusion that froze and split the rudder, or a grounding, or manufacturing defect, etc. It appears that the rudder may be rubbing the hull. The OP should confirm or deny this.

Only a close, in person inspection by a qualified marine surveyor can determine what caused this.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Frankschicketanz, the guys on this site can be a bit childish sometimes, 'tis true. However, too many of have been caught by people posting bad information - sometimes companies promoting themselves or badmouthing the competition; others who enjoy stirring up acrimonious debate.

However, there are many very knowledgeable - and possibly opinionated - folks; in every thread there will be some unhelpful posts, and some valuable ones.

In your case, there are some open questions, age of boat when purchased, usage of boat (in marina or sailed), possible owner damage to boat - possible broker damage to boat, etc. A crack like that should be carefully examined by a surveyor. In many ways a manufacturing defect is the best outcome - there is a risk of core penetration, but little risk of damage to the internal structure. Spade rudders are particularly vulnerable to grounding/external deflection. This can unbalance a rudder, perhaps damaging the internal structure. However, it is likely that any damage like this would also be reflected in stress marks on the hull.

So get an expert to evaluate it - and then, if you are still convinced it is a manufacturing defect, perhaps Hanse will help. But if it is indeed an older model from an insolvent broker, perhaps not.
 
#49 ·
The boat is a 2011 model, not launched until 2012 as it was a demo model. Perhaps we should have followed the common sense of never buying a demo model of anything, but as Frank (this is Helen again) said--I think here, but maybe not--one reason that we bought the boat in the first place is that Hanse is a well-respected company who do build a good product. It was delivered by truck--brought from the Chiemsee to the south of France--and launched there. There are no pictures of the bottom of the rudder because quite honestly it didn't occur to me; I wanted the crack to be recorded as clearly as possible. We have not had any sort of tidal surge or any of the conditions people have mentioned. Frank says to also mention that he agrees with you who have pointed out the inflammatory nature of the title of the post, but he posted not long after he had gotten the reply from the CEO. As an English teacher, I probably should have vetted the title but didn't.

On another issue, how did you manage to get that picture up? I tried several times to upload it and kept getting a server error.
 
#50 · (Edited)
On another issue, how did you manage to get that picture up? I tried several times to upload it and kept getting a server error.
Posting a picture here works well with sites like Photobucket and Flickr.. you just need to choose the linking option that embeds the pic rather than one that simply provides yet another link. In Photobucket it's the IMG CODE option.

So simply copy the appropriate link code, and paste it into your post. You may need 10 posts before that works for you. DO NOT try the site-based photo upload.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Re: Never Buy a New Boat?

Should we try to get some order in this?

The "misunderstandings"
We were presented with one story with gaps. Wide gaps. When pointed out, answers were not really satisfactory. After some digging more facts were reveiled.
Here I propose you, Frank and Helen, to give the complete story. If you want of course, not necessary at all. But would stop all speculations.
It simplifies.

Bying a new boat

A new boat is hardly ever perfect. I have never seen any new boat to be perfect. That includes boats from HR, Vindo, Nautor ... Always issues. Very irritating as the new owner has invested and then wants everything to be .. just perfect. However, a boat is not a car. Not at all. That's why we love the boats.

I see that you, Frank and Helen, have more than one complaints on your Hanse. Relax, fix the small ones yourself, and if there are any real biggies - do complain, but see to that all facts are in order.

Some few years there was an interesting case here in Sweden. A guy going into retirement wanted to upgrade from his old HR31 to a brand new HR 37. He had issues ... expected everything to be of the same quality as it was with his 40 year old Monsun (HR31). But the real surprise for him came when he installed some instruments, drilled holes in the hull and found that inner and outer skins were not attached to eachother. In my mind this is a typical fabrication fault. HR denied everything, it went to court, and all these things. Finally was settled, but the buyer did have a rough ride. Do not want anyone to go that route.
Maybe moral is, consider before you pick a fight with a large company.

The rudder damage
From the pics it is difficult to see exactly how the damage occured. There must have been some extrenal pressure, note that the crack is in the front.
At the same time, many manufacturers have had issues with their rudders. It could be a combination, or just external pressure.

Repairing the rudder
As usual, a repair depends on the damage. It is impossible to see in the pics how far the damage stretches.
A repair could be a surface / cosmetic thing, seeing to that the crack is closed, and kept together by strengthening the front part of the rudder.
Alternatively, the crack is investigated on its depth and nature. A repair could be to first widen/open the crack, investigation so the rudder has not been weakened by what has happened (this, I think, is what Paulo is hinting).
For €1000 you probably get the first kind. Consider what you want before going ahead. Had a surveyer looking at it.

I have done some repairs on my rudder and bearings myself. Worst part was digging the hole for dropping the rudder. I would gladly pay €1000 for just the digging ....

/J
 
#58 ·
Frank, I agree with you, but I will will also let you on a little secret.

There are two sides to boat ownership, one is the happy fun sailing one, the other is the things going wrong, stuff breaking, arguing with people and spending lots of money on things you didn't intend to spend money on, sometimes at times when you are sure it shouldn't be your money getting spent.

If it truly was a 1000 Euro to fix, then pay it and move on. That is a cheap bill for a sparkly boat like yours, trust me.

:cool:If you haven't go a expensive bad luck boat story- you don't sail :cool:
 
#62 ·
It's possible that what appears to be a 'rub mark' is simply a missed spot when pressure washing.... but the rudder clearance does look tight in the 'crack' pic.
 
#66 ·
Impact resulting in bent shaft, seems clear. As Bob Perry said, it should not be rubbing; Paulo's photos also show that there should be clearance. The impact could have happened in a number of places - transport, grounding etc. Regardless, it should be professionally surveyed. Without meaning to be alarmist, in an extreme case the rudder could break off.
 
#67 ·
No doubt that is is touching and the boat has been bounced pretty hard on its rudder.

But the whole story needs to be told.

When was the boat delivered?

Was it inspected upon delivery? Since it arrived overland a full inspection before launch should have been done before it was signed off from the delivery company. Who received the boat from the delivery company?

What were the circumstances of the cruise and the time the boat grounded? This is something the owner has not posted about.

Has it been repaired? At what cost? And was there any interior damage? Since the rudder is closer to the hull than designed I would expect some as Jeff has said.

Has a surveyor looked at the rudder? That should have been step one after it was noticed.

And I agree the thread title set the wrong note to start with.
 
#69 ·
Looks like it. The repair includes dropping it, repairing any damage to bearings and support inside the hull, and probably a new rudder if the shaft cannot be straightened. Better off with a new one anyway as it would have to be opened to repair it - the labor could easily eat up the cost of a new one I guess. Then there is the strength of a straightened shaft to worry about......
 
#70 ·
someone split the front by pulling the rudder with a huge amount of force trying to bend the post back! (it didn't work, and the damage was found)
 
#72 · (Edited)
I could see how something like that could happen during a Med mooring attempt (hitting something) - or just running aground in reverse. Could've been anything.

If it did happen on the trailer, I would think that's something that would immediately affect steering (as the wheel tightens with the shaft bend and/or the scraping) - and should, therefore, have shown up in a survey or the test sail. I just can't see how the wheel would have felt right with this thing like this.
 
#75 · (Edited)
Well, there we are: Speculations, speculations.

Based on one photo, showing just some parts of the rudder, some experts here are ready to put the blame on Hanse. Oh, yes.

Looking further, following Paulos thread indicates that the rudder is likely to be a Jefa design & construction. One of the best in the market (even if they are danes). Many have replaced their bearings with Jefa system, many has got their replacement rudders from Jefa. Complaints on Jefa are rare, very rare. Anyone who has an interest in this area should have look in the Jefa homepage (don't worry, it is not in danish).

Hanse makes good boats. Usually considered to be one or two notches above Bav (which by the way not are bad at all). All these large boat manufacturers are industries now. Using industrial design and methods in their construction. That is the only way to produce a 40 ft brand new boat with high quality equipment (Lewmar, Harken, ... and here also Jefa) to an affordable prise - guess that final price tag on this boat was somewhere in the area of €150' - €200'. (Paulo has of course the info on this).
This industrial process results in an even and rather high quality, provided design is not at fault. Boat manufacturers have learned their lessons now, most often consulting good designers and adapters. If there are any mistakes in the process, this will be picked up. As we saw in the case of the infamous Bav keels on the Match series.


Seems there is an agreement in all the comments so far: rudder must be dropped and cerefully inspected. Most likely inside of the boat as well. If there is a Jefa system, then this may not be so serious.
Do make an inspection inside and outside around the keel as well - if there is any damage it is better to identify at an early stage.
Funny thing is, as the grounding was an accident, then the insuranse will cover this (inspection, repairs both keel and rudder). The grounding is even already documented ....

/J
 
#76 ·
If the rudder post is bent forward, the blade is split open and water penetrated the shaft or webbing, which is what that picture suggests, it would cost a lot more than $1,000 Euro to repair.

The story just doesn't add up. I can't say for sure what is missing, but it's clearly not all in evidence.

At the least, I can understand Hanse seeing that pic and wanting to know more, before they pay for what may be a grounding or some other non-manufacturing defect.
 
#81 ·
One other thing, this boat was used as a demo for a year or more. Was this in the water, or up on a cradle? Who knows what might have happened on some test sail? Could have been the dealer's owner's personally used boat for all we know.
 
#86 ·
Soo... it seems we need at least 3 posts on the 'next page' to actually be allowed to go to it. This happens randomly of late, no idea why. When I posted that (by all means ignore ;)) I could see it in the new posts listing but still couldn't get to it.

No luck yet getting admin to acknowledge/respond...
 
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