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Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

You two are seriously high-maintenance. But it's the holidays, so I'll continue to try to help you understand things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
For those that keep circling back to rules like those of ISAF as the "solution" to safety at sea read this earlier thread: Can You Buy Safety? .

Safety inspections--ISAF-based or not--are simply NOT the answer to improved safety at sea. Judgment, skill, and experience in that order are the answer. "Stuff" is a distant fourth. Unfortunately you can't teach judgment. I think you can learn it with enough scar tissue. *grin*
I don't think anyone has said that ISAF is the "'solution' to safety at sea". You seem to have trouble understanding what you read.

I won't re-hash it all here, because I think I've been very clear about the issues surrounding the SDR being the combination of a low bar to entry (especially for this stretch of ocean at this time of year) combined with their laissez faire approach to safety. Maybe you can find someone to explain this to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
True, "group think" is not an issue exclusive to the SDR, but according to you, they're the ones not adequately addressing it, and the ones who need to "change"...
Right. You seem to be in the same confused boat as Ausp. See the above for the problem with the SDR. I think I've been very clear about that.

They should at least change one or the other of these current approaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
So, then - here's what Nielsen is saying in effect, and you are in complete agreement with, when applied to the SDR:

Normally, I'm inclined to believe that the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain. Except, in the case of the rally whose mission statement makes it perfectly clear from the outset that the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain...

Completely nonsensical... Congrats, you're following Lewis Carrol through the rabbit hole and into ALICE IN WONDERLAND, with your endorsement of that sort of 'logic'... :-)
Yes...what you typed above is completely non-sensical. Of course, no one in this debate has ever said anything like that. If that's really what you understand Nielsen to being saying when you read his quote, that explains perfectly why you don't understand what's being talked about here.

It's always better to stick with what someone actually says than trying mightily to twist it to fit your point. Otherwise, "in effect", you're saying that:

"Nielsen is a fool who believes that inexperienced sailors should rub themselves with seal fat and try to ride a polar bear."

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Post #548, perhaps?

True, "group think" is not an issue exclusive to the SDR, but according to you, they're the ones not adequately addressing it, and the ones who need to "change"...
Cool. So you're reversing yourself and finally acknowledging what I actually wrote instead of spinning into another rabbit hole. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Oh, really? Then why did you stamp everything he wrote following that "But" with your own imprimatur of "EXACTLY" ???

OK, help me out here, since you appear to know "exactly" what Nielsen means with this nonsensical non-sequitur.
I said "exactly" because I agree with what he wrote. Let me try yet again to boil it down for you...while you keep in mind the title of his article, "Group Think":

Quote:
The Salty Dawg people...take a laissez-faire approach that places the onus for preparation and decision-making on the individual skippers. Rightly so, you may say, and I would usually be the first to agree, as the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain.
Now - to this point, he said he would usually see things the way you and Ausp (and most everyone else including me) sees them...that the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain.

But then there's the but...

Quote:
But of all the reasons to join a flock of other boats in an organized blue water rally, surely the notion of safety is one of the strongest. I suspect that the passage that lay ahead of the skippers in the Salty Dawg and the C1500 would be the longest most of them had undertaken, and faced with the unfamiliar, there is certainty of comfort in company, and at least the illusion of safety in numbers.
For the less-experienced skippers (the ones Ausp and you seem to continually ignore in your diatribes) - the notion of "safety" provided by the rally is an illusion. Exactly.

This is the higher risk I've been talking about for this entire thread. And if this illusion is not dealt with by the rally - by either increasing the experience-level for entry, or NOT taking a laissez faire approach to these sailor's safety - that organization is creating a dangerous situation (while making money off of it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
You keep insisting that the SDR is 'doing it wrong', and yet neither you, nor Neilsen, say with any degree of clarity what the SDR did wrong...
Actually, I've said very clearly, over and over again, what the SDR is doing wrong. I've said it twice now above. I'm not sure I can make it any more clear to you and Ausp without diagrams drawn with a crayon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
What makes our back and forth on this especially amusing, is our relative positions we've debated in prior "Bluewater vs. Production Boats" threads... I seem to recall you generally taking the position that it's always the sailor, not the boat, that matters - and that in general most any production boat is adequate for bluewater voyaging...
Absolutely right. Now if the SDR agreed with you and increased their standard of entry to match your view - we'd be golden. If they're NOT going to do that (especially if there is ANY financial incentive in not doing so) then that boat (and its safety equipment) is likely going to have to play a much more critical role...especially under the illusion of safety Nielsen mentions.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-26-2013 at 01:28 PM.
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