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Dufour 27 1977? What do you think?

28K views 68 replies 16 participants last post by  SailNet Archive 
#1 ·
Hi,

I don't really know to much about dufour 27's. I was wondering if any of you knew anything about these sailboats. I know they have a volvo diesel and are a french made boat. Any information or experience would be very helpful. Thanks!
 
#4 ·
Don't get me started TB......
 
#7 ·
Cruisingdad said:
Oops, many apologies about the last comment. I was not paying attention. The Mac has a boom.

- CD
ROFL... Mean, mean, mean.. funny, but mean...
 
#10 ·
Cruisingdad said:
Slap some teak decks on that thing and call it Giulietta!!
You know what is funny???

On TB's post, both boats are doing what you do with yours...going nowhere.....:D :D How can that be Giulietta??

Giulietta, on the other hand...broke the boom, doing what it what supposed to do....sail....:D and sail hard...give it a try....

"You can't blame the Soldier for getting killed in war....but you can blame the one killed during peace"

This means in my country, that things only happen to those who try... asort of **** happens...(unless you don't do it)
 
#11 ·
Actually, the picture appears to be a Dufour 2800 which is a 28 footer and not the earlier Dufour 27. I am very familiar with the 1970's era Dufour 27,and while I think back on them with some nostalgia, frankly, they are a miserable little boat in almost all ways.

They began life as an early IOR rule beater. They offered a very corky motion and a very poor ability to deal with a chop for a boat of this size. They have came with small rigs which made them useless in light winds. In heavy air they lacked stability to stand up to their sailplans and have a tendancy to round-up suddenly and without warning when heeled in a seaway. This lack of sailing ability at either end of the wind range makes them a poor choice in a venue prone to variable conditions.

As a cruiser they lack ventilation, storage, and tankage even for a boat of this size.

I would like to hope that prior owners may have upgraded these boats over the years, as they came from the factory they were really poorly executed. Build quality was quite poor by modern standards or by US standards of that era. Equipage left much to desire, especially with regards to deck hardware size and ergonomics. Plumbing, electrical, propulsion system materials and installations were shoddily done, even for that era and in many cases, next to impossible to access to redo.

These were comparatively expensive boats when new and so you sometimes see them at unrealisticly high prices. The one that I sailed on most was bought for less than $7 k and the owner rather quickly sunk nearly that much more into the boat bringing it up to some kind of reasonable standards. I believe the boat sold again for a little over $7K a few years later.

Respectfully,
Jeff
 
#12 ·
Wow, Jeff really doesn't like the Dufour 27... and it sounds like with good reason... can't sail it in light air, can't sail it in heavy air, tends to broach unexpectedly, not enough ventilation, storage or tankage... hmmm... not much good there.
 
#13 ·
Hey Giu,

I am not sure we believe your story about how the boom broke. I know you were talking about it sailing and all that... but me's a thinkin' that its more likely that you were trying to hang off the boom like your son does. I hope you learned your lesson, though. You are lucky the mast did not snap!!!

(smile)

- CD

PS I love picking on Giu when he is on dial up. He is sitting there reading one line at a time going by... gettting madder and madder... photobucket keeps shutting down... HEHEHEHE!!
 
#15 ·
Jeff_H said:
Actually, the picture appears to be a Dufour 2800 which is a 28 footer and not the earlier Dufour 27. I am very familiar with the 1970's era Dufour 27,and while I think back on them with some nostalgia, frankly, they are a miserable little boat in almost all ways.

They began life as an early IOR rule beater. They offered a very corky motion and a very poor ability to deal with a chop for a boat of this size. They have came with small rigs which made them useless in light winds. In heavy air they lacked stability to stand up to their sailplans and have a tendancy to round-up suddenly and without warning when heeled in a seaway. This lack of sailing ability at either end of the wind range makes them a poor choice in a venue prone to variable conditions.

As a cruiser they lack ventilation, storage, and tankage even for a boat of this size.

I would like to hope that prior owners may have upgraded these boats over the years, as they came from the factory they were really poorly executed. Build quality was quite poor by modern standards or by US standards of that era. Equipage left much to desire, especially with regards to deck hardware size and ergonomics. Plumbing, electrical, propulsion system materials and installations were shoddily done, even for that era and in many cases, next to impossible to access to redo.

These were comparatively expensive boats when new and so you sometimes see them at unrealisticly high prices. The one that I sailed on most was bought for less than $7 k and the owner rather quickly sunk nearly that much more into the boat bringing it up to some kind of reasonable standards. I believe the boat sold again for a little over $7K a few years later.

Respectfully,
Jeff
So one may ask, Jeff, what were you sailing then, in the 70's and early 80's that was so much better than that? Those boats and others like that, was all we had in Europe then...I was racing 470's then, maybe just starting with the Stars...so a ride in a larger boat for us was a thrill...I never saw what you describe....maybe we coulnd't sail...or maybe we did...or maybe our standandards were low....compared to yours...we will never know...

We had those (I admit to todays standards they a piece of crap, but back then....what were your choices??) Dufours, and some early ****ty Beneteaus, a few Jeanneaus some Starts and a lot of Kelts....and a whole bunch of wood homebuilts......these Plastic boats...they seemed very good boats to us...they were the big boats for me a Kid....they never pretended to be more than a local sail boat with beds for a few...they were made to sail within 10 miles of the coast, by normal people in normal winds...never meant to be live aboards, or need special masts and sails...the boats were dinghys with a few more feet and a cabin...everybody knew that...

Anyone doing more than that...or that did not understand that...well maybe should be into something else instead of sailing

That is why I am asking the question...what were you sailing then that was so much better?;)
 
#17 · (Edited)
The early 1970's were a strange time in boat design and construction. During the early to mid- 1970's I owned a wooden 1949 Swedish Folkboat and then a 1939 Stadel cutter, but I raced on a number of early 1970's boats expecially later in the decade and into the early 1980's. I also raced on quite a few mid-1970's era boats that I thought were a big improvement over the early 1970's boats.

In no particular order the 1970's era boats that come to mind that I have raced and would prefer over the Dufour included C&C 24's, Ranger 23's (which I really came to enjoy for its sailing ability), Ranger 26 (but much later), Cal 25's and 2-27's, Hughes Northstar 500's (owned a QT version), Tartan 26 (which I liked alot), Pearson 26's, Paceship 26, later 70's Kirby 25's (which I later owned and really liked), J-24's, Seidelman 25 (as much as I wanted to I didn't really like this boat), Morgan 27 (which I would consider a much better sailing and slightly better built US equivilent to the Dufour), Alberg 30's, Pearson 31, Bristol 33/34 (I really liked this boat), Tartan 34, Ericson 35, Ranger 37, C&C 39, Tartan 41, and Newport 41.

I think most were better sailors than the Dufours of that era and most offered better or equal build quality.

Respectfully,
Jeff
 
#18 ·
Auuhhhhh, I looked through that list and have not seen Catalina mentioned. Once you go with a cat, you never go back!! That is why you have had so many boats... you just have not had the right one yet. www.catalinayachts.com!!!

- CD

PS - Cat stands for Catalina and NOT catamaran, SD... quit getting excited.
 
#19 ·
CD-

I prefer Trimarans... ;)
 
#20 ·
Jeff_H said:
The early 1970's were a strange time in boat design and construction. During the early to mid- 1970's I owned a wooden 1949 Swedish Folkboat and then a 1939 Stadel cutter, but I raced on a number of early 1970's boats expecially later in the decade and into the early 1980's. I also raced on quite a few mid-1970's era boats that I thought were a big improvement over the early 1970's boats.

In no particular order the 1970's era boats that come to mind that I have raced and would prefer over the Dufour included C&C 24's, Ranger 23's (which I really came to enjoy for its sailing ability), Ranger 26 (but much later), Cal 25's and 2-27's, Hughes Northstar 500's (owned a QT version), Tartan 26 (which I liked alot), Pearson 26's, Paceship 26, later 70's Kirby 25's (which I later owned and really liked), J-24's, Seidelman 25 (as much as I wanted to I didn't really like this boat), Morgan 27 (which I would consider a much better sailing and slightly better built US equivilent to the Dufour), Alberg 30's, Pearson 31, Bristol 33/34 (I really liked this boat), Tartan 34, Ericson 35, Ranger 37, C&C 39, Tartan 41, and Newport 41.

I think most were better sailors than the Dufours of that era and most offered better or equal build quality.

Respectfully,
Jeff
I agree the 70's were screwd up...very very few boats were fiberglass, and the market was...well for us...no market...we had those plywood side construction boats, that looked like shoes...

we had a lot of smaller sailboats, where we were kings in light boats..Vaurien, Snipe, Optimist....420, 470, (man, I was going fast on the big highway...then the 80's Olympics in Moscow....were boycotted... well we coulnd't go, so suck it up), Flying Dutchman (I have a smile now), fireballs, dragons, but as far as big boats...you had a lot more in the US...you had the larger boats we had the smaller boats....

I remember sailing in an aluminium Pen Duick, about 6.5 meters...flush deck...what a boat...made weird noises though...scary boat...fast. That was a BIG boat for me !!!! 6 meters!!! We could stand on the boat....

See we had none of those boats you talk about (we had the J's, but they were real ****ty then...you know that, and some rangers, but very very bad)....most of what he had was (to todays standards) poorly built. We still have none of those brands you mention...we sailed whatever we could bring from France, Sweden and Spain plus what was built locally...at that time the Germans...well they were still figuring out archimeded principle then...and the Italians made beautifull boats...but they didn't float....

So to us, back then, the Dufour (a **** boat today) was a great thing, and we had fun in sailing them..and it made us better sailors..and I still think its a little old great boat....That is why I was :mad: :mad: when you went against my idea of that boat....

I remember a few years back in the end of the 90's I lived in Morocco 4 years, my father in law that was the Portuguese Tennis Chamipon in 1756 or something like that...wanted to play tennis...we were in a resort south of casablanca....there was this small Moroccan guy, with a tennis racket missing more than half of the strings, he was the local resort tennis instructor...he beat my father in law with a 2 string racket...to him...his racket was the best thing in the world....its all in the heart.

I hate dialup
 
#21 ·
Giulietta said:
TB,

actually you are very very wrong, in that photo, the grey paint in the cabin might resemble, but its a completely different boat...believe me...they were really good then...but at that time...so were Alfa Romeos!!

Its a nice little boat..

See here
Ah come on Giu. Alfa stopped making half way decent cars in the 70's. You were still at school. :p
 
#22 ·
just to put in my two cents . . . I have an ETAP 28, a close relative to the Dufour 27 (same era, both french designs, both similar looking). All other things aside, I wouldn't buy a boat with a Volvo in it, especially an aging diesel. Just spent -- grab a seat -- $335 for the rubber saildrive gasket which is supposed to be changed every 7 years. When this boat goes, no more Volvos. Great engines, parts are a rape. You might want to factor that in.
 
#23 ·
earling said:
just to put in my two cents . . . I have an ETAP 28, a close relative to the Dufour 27 (same era, both french designs, both similar looking). All other things aside, I wouldn't buy a boat with a Volvo in it, especially an aging diesel. Just spent -- grab a seat -- $335 for the rubber saildrive gasket which is supposed to be changed every 7 years. When this boat goes, no more Volvos. Great engines, parts are a rape. You might want to factor that in.
Your etap 28 designed in 1978, is a Belgian boat designed by Van De Stadt, a fairly famous DUTCH designer, not french.
 
#24 ·
Gui,

I truly understand what you are saying. I think that this kind of discussion is strictly a matter of perspective, the view from where you are standing.

Like you, I have been sailing since the early 1960's. In the 1960's, I loved the boats that we sailed because these were all that we knew. In thier day, these old CCA era boats seemed like greatly advanced designs, although even then, there was a lot oif discussion about the major negatives of the rule driven short waterlines that was typical of CCA era boats.

My family had a Van de Stadt designed Contest 25. Its fin keel-spade rudder design seemed like a revelation compared to the fin keel with attached rudder boats like the Pearson Ariel that were more typical of that era.

As newer designs like the Cal 40's and Cal 2-30's hit the market they upped the anty even further and I can remember getting on a Cal 2-30 and being bowled away by how great a boat that was relative to the boats that I had sailed previously.

By the mid 1970's, I began to look back on the CCA era boats, that seemed so great in thier day as being very limited in thier capabilities across a range of conditions. I also began sailing on traditional watercraft and seeing their virtues, which led me to believe that the CCA era boats were a racing rule driven, ill advised detour from the evolution of quality yacht design.

In the 1970's, when boats like the Dufour were new, they seemed like great improvements over what came before. Compared to the CCA Boats they replaced, they were fast and had superior deck hardware and layouts, but they were also a little finicky to sail. Seen in their era that did not matter much, because looking from the veiwpoint of the 1970's these seemed like such improvements relative to what we knew before.

It was only as design and build quality improved further, the short comings of these designs quickly became apparent. It is only when seen looking back from today, that we realize how poorly these boats sailed relative to how well a 27 footer could sail, that raw copper wire wrapped around a screw head is not the way to make an electrical connection, and that the clear plastic hoses used for overboard plumbing attached to brass gate valves is not the best way to do things. The small Volvo diesels of the 1970's seemed miraculous, but of course compared to the better modern designs, they were heavy, noisy, not all that reliable, and vibrated redicuously.

I still try to sail on boats of all different eras. It helps me see them in perspective, to remember their virtues as well as their liabilities. I try to get a sense of how they were built. It helps me understand how things age, so that I don't make the same mistakes when I upgrade my own boats.

Like you, I look back on the boats of this time warmly for the joys that they brought me during that era. But when someone asks about buying one of them today, I can only look at them through the perspective of today and suggest that there are much better boats out there for the dollar.

Regards,
Jeff
 
#25 ·
:D :D :D Jeff...slow down...:D :D :D

I sailed in the 60's but had diapers!!!!:D :D

I started in the 70's....in Optimists....:D :D :D you're old!!!:D :D

Let me tell you something funny...

My son races Optimists for CNL in Lisbon, so whenever I can, I take him to the club, and (secretely) rig his boat, you know...tighten the knots, adjust the main foot, well you know...its my kid....he has to go faster....

Anyway...they have a few 420's and 470's there, so I called my bowman, (lead brain) and we took a 420 from the club for a ride...it was so funny...I can't move as I could before...and so cluln't he...he fell off the trapeze...I laughed and almost peed myself...but we still embarassed the kids...

We did ok....but was so funny...

Another funny ride was with a 49er!!! the kids that built my boat are the Cahmps in 49er here, so I sailed with one of them..well.I tell you...I was sore for a week...have you sailed a 49er??? If you haven't go try it....makes the GONADS hurt!!!!:D :D
 
#26 ·
The really funny part is that Alex sails in the 2000's and still has diapers. :D
 
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