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safe cooking

26K views 300 replies 39 participants last post by  hellosailor 
#1 ·
i have read a lot of threads about stoves on boats. of course, the usual debate is alcohol or propane.

recently, last month actually, a powerboat at the marina my boat is berthed at caught fire and burned up completely. it was a live aboard. the guy was hurt but he lived. he was lucky. he bought another power boat off of their lean dock and moved into it. the cause? his propane stove.

that was a real piece of reality for me. no propane on my boat!

but, there are safety risks with alcohol, too. the threads i have read make that plain. so, the big question i have is what other options are there?

also, how real is the risk with alcohol?

as i get my boat ready to sail, this will be a choice i am going to have to face. it doesn't have a stove but i will want one for cruising. eating out at every port you stp at is going to be way too costly and you can't always be sure you will be stopping at a port for the night. thanks.
 
#135 ·
i would suppose that he is saying the fact that alcohol is not readily available or economically prudent outside of the U.S. is unimportant as i probably wouldn't be blue water sailing in this boat.
 
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#132 · (Edited)
Think what type of stove/oven has a lot to do with type/size of boat and intended use. If you are out cruising electric not a good option. Just like they are hard to cook in a dirt home with because surface/pot doesn't respond immediately to change in setting like with gas they are dangerous to crew. You do up some coffee before coming on deck for a night watch. Boat is red light mode. You put the coffee maker in the sink and leave some empty cups on the counter. Second crew is setting up a snack. He/she puts something or a hand on hot electric stove. Ouch!!. Yes the pot holders stay hot on a gas stove but the whole surface of an electric stove stays hot. Hard enough to bake on a boat. Even harder with electric stove. Usually do this on calm, cloudy days No solar. No wind generator. Listening to the diesel generator kills the day. Instead of listening to tunes and smelling bread baking with your stomach growling your listening to a d-mn engine.
Alcohol/kero just doesn't get hot enough and quickly enough to match the flip the switch, click ,turn and hold for a couple of seconds. When doing watches being able to cook or heat something nice without fuss or bother is a big deal. If the AP and frig are running conserving Ah is wise. Come on folks - for over all ease gas is the way to go. In just about anyplace if there is a garage filling cars there is a good likelihood they can fill a tank with propane. You walk up with a tank you don't even need to speak the language. Risk with minimal attention is low. Guess with rats "When the lord comes calling you got to move". Sure you can use a crockpot for a full meal but I have no place where it will stay still except wedged on the gimbaled propane stove so it's off the boat with a pressure cooker to replace it.
?Are the Wallas systems gimbaled? Only one I ever saw was done was fixed in place but was on a commercial fish boat
? Induction systems sound nice but do they hold up in marine environs?
Sorry - just needed to mouth off. My bad
 
#139 ·
Think what type of stove/oven has a lot to do with type/size of boat and intended use. If you are out cruising electric not a good option. Just like they are hard to cook in a dirt home with because surface/pot doesn't respond immediately to change in setting like with gas they are dangerous to crew. You do up some coffee before coming on deck for a night watch. Boat is red light mode. You put the coffee maker in the sink and leave some empty cups on the counter. Second crew is setting up a snack. He/she puts something or a hand on hot electric stove. Ouch!!. Yes the pot holders stay hot on a gas stove but the whole surface of an electric stove stays hot. Hard enough to bake on a boat. Even harder with electric stove. Usually do this on calm, cloudy days No solar. No wind generator. Listening to the diesel generator kills the day. Instead of listening to tunes and smelling bread baking with your stomach growling your listening to a d-mn engine.
Outbound... I'll take it you've never been around or exposed to induction stoves or ovens... let's just say I can place my hand directly on the stove surface while it is running about the only thing that will happen is smearing the black onyx surface with my hand oils... try that with a regular electric stove and I understand how your second shift crew would be burnt. Doesn't and will never happen on the surface of an induction stove... So in reality your rant doesn't apply here. As I mentioned my next boat will be entirely induction stove/oven and I see marine units are already hitting the market... but why wait? As mentioned I have my Honda 2000 but never ever ran it to make a meal using the induction stove. This is after all on a 25 foot boat... why the criticism if it should plainly work on a much larger boat with generators charging the batteries and hefty solar panels charging, and Torquedoes up the rear charging away?
 
#137 ·
I guess the point becomes that there are a variety of safety hazards onboard. You could sink, catch fire, receive a blow to the head, inhale toxic gases or choke on a olive. I think the danger of propane is very low compared to the other dangers onboard. Propane has a distinctive indicating smell and with certain precautions can be handled safely. An accidental jibe because of a wind shift has more potential to injure myself or my guests. If the world scares you, stay home.
 
#148 ·
a person could use that argument against a person that thinks a motor is a necessary piece of safety equipment on a sailboat. do you happen to have a motor?

and, i'm willing to bet you have the usual boat load of technological gadgets on your boat. sailing without GPS and all the rest just wouldn't be safe, would it?

but, because i want to choose the safest fuel to use in my bloody stove that means i am too scared to sail so i better pack up and go home?

to quote don casey: "On a boat, LPG is also, by far, the most dangerous cooking fuel. "

check it out:
i built my own chopper. it has no front brakes. no rear shocks. a rake of 50 degrees. and a right hand suicide shifter. i love to ride at beak neck speed on twisty roads. i'm not exactly a timid guy. however, i'm not dumb enough to stick a hand grenade up my butt, with the pin pulled, and ride down the road hoping my sphincter can hold the lever in so it doesn't blow my a*# off.

give me a break.
 
#140 ·
I dont think Im criticising, at least initially I mentioned it be great no nonsense system for our boats

BUT for cruising its still too much of a draw it has the same drawacks that an electric inboard would for long term cruising

you need a lot of panels and wind power to make it a 3 times a day source for cooking but Id be glad to see some low draw ones in the market soon
 
#141 ·
Out of mild curiosity, what is the amp draw on an induction stove-top? I am assuming that this set up would mean an electric oven too? I like my propane (but then again, I cook with gas at home). Never once have I had a flare-up like when I had an alcohol stove and singed the cabin curtains. We used to have a paraffin trawler lantern in the cabin but got tired of the oily film and soot on the overhead if it wasn’t adjusted properly. But, I can see where propane or electric might not be practical for Jack’s boat and budget. Get what you can afford and take proper precautions and enjoy your boat.
 
#143 · (Edited)
Out of mild curiosity, what is the amp draw on an induction stove-top? I am assuming that this set up would mean an electric oven too? I like my propane (but then again, I cook with gas at home). Never once have I had a flare-up like when I had an alcohol stove and singed the cabin curtains. We used to have a paraffin trawler lantern in the cabin but got tired of the oily film and soot on the overhead if it wasn't adjusted properly. But, I can see where propane or electric might not be practical for Jack's boat and budget. Get what you can afford and take proper precautions and enjoy your boat.
George... it sounds like you're a little curious and you should be. My induction stove is super efficient... why?... one simple reason... it draws only the amount of electricity it needs in an instant to heat water or whatever... uses only the power it needs and nothing else... unlike an electric stove with resistance heating it must warm up... ever plug in a soldering iron waiting for it to heat up or an iron, etc.... that is the resistance element heating up and must be at full power to get to proper heat... that is wasting a lot of wattage right there... not so with the induction stove... it's electronic and turns on and off as needed to maintain the temperature.... your electric stove is on all the time at at set control timing.

That really is the difference... it uses very little wattage!

And to Tempest it ran on a 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter but I wanted power for other items so exchanged it with a 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter... works beautifully if may say so. My added plus is I'm not buying $12.00 a gallon of alcohol or the danger of an alcohol spill or fire!

Jack would need an alcohol stove or whatever he likes... my induction stove is not the cheapy units you see advertised on TV and is a chef/restaurant heavy duty quality unit and wired to the inverter with heavy 30 amp cabling... and inverter cables to the batteries are marine grade heavy duty cables. Not cheap for the faint of heart on a budget... the inverter alone was almost $800.
 
#142 ·
George,

I'm not an electrician. I believe with a typical 110v, 15 amp circuit, the absolute maximum deliverable wattage would be around 1800w. I believe that's why most of the portable units on the market are 1500 watts. I hope I've stated that correctly. One would need a dedicated circuit for each 1500 watt unit.
 
#145 · (Edited)
Math is wrong... it should be 1500/60 minutes or 25 watts per minute... not 1500 watts per minute... appliances are rated per hour usage... so for one hour of the induction stove use it will use 1500 watts... problem is it's not running 1 hour... but 5-10 minutes at the most... so 5*25 = 125 watts power used... 10 minutes is 250 watts, etc... pretty simple... there are numerous power/wattage calculators that will tell you based on how much power the appliance is using... your figure would mean a 1500 watt heater in the cabin is also using 121 amps too... how can that be George? Shore power is only 30 amps!

You must be asking how much amps is it using... 1500 watts/ 110 volts = 13.6 amps per hour... so based on that 5 minutes usage is: 1.136 amps... 10 minutes of usage is: 2.272 amps.

That is the total power being drawn from the battery +/-.

Clear now?
 
#146 ·
Guitarguy, when I do the math your way, I still come up with 31 Amp hours per 15 minute "meal". I am not so much concerned when I am tied up to the dock but for the times I am "off the grid". Like outbound, my biggest headache is those at sea days when my navigation system, radio and lights are a major consumer of my house bank. for example, my sensors "cost" me 48 AH per 24 hours, and the chartplotter another 60. My housebank only has a usable capacity of 150 - 160 AHs and my solar panel isn't the most efficient with the boat rolling and yawing.
 
#150 · (Edited)
George... let's look at it again... 1500 watt appliance running 1 hour will be 1.5 kwatts per hour... a 1500 watt appliance running on 110 volts is using 13.6 amps per hour... ask any electrical engineer, electrician, etc.... the usage of watts drops as the appliance is reduced in time per minute.

Here is a simple calculator:

Calculate the Costs to Use Electricity - WebMath

add the 1500 watts and the number of mintues... see if you don't get the same answers I shown you... you may have to convert kwatt hours to minutes to get the actual watt/minute usage.

Does it make a little more sense now?
 
#158 · (Edited)
oh, yes. that's right. because i was thinking of fabricating a jib boom and going self tacking i was just destined to be a powerboater before long. funny. it's been 18 years, sailing, so far and i've never even used a motor on a boat, before.

i'd love to know why you are so easily offended with how i consider outfitting my own boat? what's it to you? i'm not telling you how you should set your boat up. you don't hear me implying that you are a non-sailing pansy if you use a motor to leave and return to a dock. i figure it's your business. but, obviously, anything i consider about my boat IS enough of your business for you to take offense and fling fairly blatant insults about my fitness to sail.

no. it has nothing to do with safety while i am on the boat. i figure i am competent enough to handle that. i am worried about getting that phone call from the marina. i already saw one black and burned out shell of a boat at the marina, this year. i don't want them to call and tell me that mine has met that fate.

again, i think it's foolish to totally ignore the fact that propane is the most dangerous cooking fuel on a boat. i think it's just a point of wisdom to explore the options. you know...not just be a sheep and do the same thing everyone else does because everyone else is doing it.

i have to wonder, are you threatened by people who consider different options than you or just easily butthurt if everyone doesn't automatically do things the way you do?

loads of boats have used, and do use, jib booms and self tacking jibs. that's a fairly traditional set up. lots of people use fuels other than propane. does it also bother you that there are people converting their 'perfectly good' bermuda sloops to junk rigs? do facts like these keep you awake at night? is that why keep popping up in my threads telling me i don't have gonads enough to sail?

i can't tell you how many times sailors in bigger boats have told me they thought i was crazy to be sailing my little dinghy out in wind as heavy as i often do....just think what they'd think if they knew that i don't know how to swim. but, you're right. i'm too timid to sail. i better sell all three of my sailboats.
 
#154 ·
Jack, given your boat, budget, and aspirations, I'd say go with the alcohol stove. Why go through the expense and space to put in propane? All fuel is dangerous to one degree or another and as you can see by this discussion, the differences are getting down to hair splitting. Boatus says propane is safe as evidenced through the claims they payout. I have owned boats with alcohol for 13 years and propane for 15. I had one fire with alcohol and so far, none with the propane. My experience may not be everybody's. But I don't see it as the fuel for you. Nor do I see coal as your fuel (the cooking fuel of choice for over a hundred years before kero took over).
 
#160 ·
coal. boy that would take up some space on board and cause some real soot.:)

actually, if i was to decide to go propane i'd want an outside tank locker and i really don't see the room for that, on my boat. it would just take up too much space. i do think that pressurized alcohol will be my best bet, as you said.
 
#155 ·
Guitarguy, my boat runs on 12 volt DC so I divide watts by 12V to get amps, not 110V as you would for shore power. Do I assume correctly that these stoves only work on 110VAC? Then I would also have to calculate the loss going through the inverter. Is there an induction oven too? What is the efficiency of that unit?
 
#163 · (Edited)
Ok George... I only have one induction stove and no oven.

Here is how I see it at the battery... 1500 watts into the battery is 150 amps per hour... 150 amp/hr... so 150 amps/60 minutes= 2.5 amp/minute so 5 minutes equals 12.5 amps multiplied by 12 volts = 150 watts... 10 minutes gives you 300 watts... this not including inverter efficiency or factor which would alter the above.

The stove of course is 110 vac... loss though the inverter may be .5 amps +/-

Point being is the wattage and battery usage is not what many people think.. I have two batteries in the boat to handle this power and they weren't cheap.

I used this stove throughout my cruising while using the boat... not like I was cooking 4 times a day! I had no problem with of discharging the batteries and the solar panel had no problem topping off the use... I wouldn't take the boat across an ocean using this method of cooking on this size of a boat but for coastal cruising as I did up in Puget Sound I had no issues.

A larger solar panel and cruising outside of Puget Sound with many sunny days and the stove could be used for more than 5-10 minutes...

Alex... I think you need to check out the calculator to see that time component in minutes!
 
#166 ·
paranoia? it's a simple question about cook fuel options and safety. there are a lot of articles and threads on the web about the cooking fuel safety issue. that would indicate a lot of other people are also 'paranoid' about that issue, i suppose.
 
#173 ·
wow! i had requested a price quote from wallace on the price of a cooktop for my boat, just out of curiosity. with all the needed equipment, it was $3,337. i think i'll stick with the origo or campmate. can anyone tell me if there is any reason why the campmate is less advisable that the origo? is the price difference one of brand name or quality?
 
#175 ·
:laugher oh. yeah. you're right. that's what i mean. is there a quality difference? you know, sometimes the difference in price of an item is just name recognition and hasd nothing to do with the value of the actual item. other times, it does show inferior quality.
 
#177 ·
I have the Origo 4000 on my Pearson and my friend's Yankee 30 has the equivalent CookMate. I previously had a boat with the Origo 3000.

The CookMate has a few more sharp edges on the inside and the latch for holding it closed shoots apart into 4 pieces if you unscrew it, where the one on the Origo is completely captive. Functionally they are the same. For the slight extra cost I'd personally get the Origo, but if every penny matters then the CookMate is fine. You can pretty easily find a used Origo for half the price of a new CookMate.

guitarguy: You are dropping units left and right and treating amps at 12v the same as amps at 110v. The math doesn't work.
 
#181 ·
I have the Origo 4000 on my Pearson and my friend's Yankee 30 has the equivalent CookMate. I previously had a boat with the Origo 3000.

The CookMate has a few more sharp edges on the inside and the latch for holding it closed shoots apart into 4 pieces if you unscrew it, where the one on the Origo is completely captive. Functionally they are the same. For the slight extra cost I'd personally get the Origo, but if every penny matters then the CookMate is fine. You can pretty easily find a used Origo for half the price of a new CookMate.
good advice
 
#195 ·
I didn't see anyone mention this yet. You are 55 times more likely to have an electrical fire aboard than a stove fire! 24 times greater risk of an engine fire. This concern over galley fuel is not ones primary risk. Get whatever stove you like and mange it properly. Propane or not.

Why Boats Catch Fire - Seaworthy - BoatUS
 
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