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My Peak Sails Experience

58K views 107 replies 44 participants last post by  Jeff_H 
#1 ·
I've read several posts here and elsewhere about Peak Sails (Peak Sails North America - Peak Sails North America). I thought it may be instructive to describe my first-hand experiences in factual, objective terms while leaving conclusions and opinion to the reader.

I wanted a mainsail and 110% hank-on jib for my Hinterhoeller HR28. No off-the-shelf sails (Catalina, Hunter, etc.) were close enough for me. I am a very casual cruiser, using the boat maybe 15-20 days per year so price was my primary purchase criteria. I had no reservation taking my own sail measurements (all the firms use the same basic form) and ordering over the internet with a credit card. I did not want/need the service (and price) a full service loft would provide.

I obtained quotes from several discount-overseas operations, trying to compare apples to apples by choosing each loft's Dacron cross-cut mid-grade ("Offshore", "Bluewater") or optioned-up sails rather than their base, OEM-grade sails. The following where my delivered quotes for the mainsail and 110% hank-on jib:
FarEastSails.com $1,950
Rolly Tasker (direct) $870, mainsail only
Rolly Tasker (through National Sail Supply) $2,185
Precision Sails $2,017
Peak Sails $1,444 (promo: 15% off "Bluewater sail" pricing when buying 2 sails).

I chose Peak Sails' Bluewater sails from the quotes shown, less 15% promotional discount for buying 2 sails, plus $40 shipping to my home for $1,444 total billed in 4 monthly installments. After a few email and phone exchanges with Peak's rep (Chris Stevens), we had details settled and the first credit card installment secured the order on July 15. I was told to expect the sails in mid-August, around 30 days later.

By August 22, I still had received no sails, nor any communication. I emailed asking for a status update and received no reply. Over the next few days I tried their Tysons Corner VA phone perhaps 6 times and always received a recording asking me to leave a message, which I declined to do… by then I wanted our dealings in writing in case I had to lodge a credit card dispute.

On August 28 I wrote another email indicating my intention to lodge a credit card dispute if I did not hear from them in timely fashion. The monthly installments were posted on the 16th of each month, so I knew I had 2+ weeks until installment #3 was to be charged and I would not let it go that long.

That same day, August 28, I did hear back from Peak rep Deanna Freng who indicated the sails were scheduled to be shipped from the Far East in the next day or two for receipt in Colorado the first week of September, then re-sent to customers. I would receive a Fedex Tracking number for that shipment.

On September 12 I received the Fedex tracking number for the shipment from Dongguan China (China Sail Factory??) to Colorado. On September 17 I received the Fedex tracking number for my sails from Colorado to my east coast home. On September 23, I received both sails.

Below are some photos of the sail to illustrate (as best as can be shown in photos) the material and workmanship. Time will tell whether these sails hold up or not, but they are (finally) here.
 

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#66 ·
jblumhorst,

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I agree with most of what you wrote, and learned something. For example, I did not realize that online sail makers had their boat owners provide images of the their sails and rigs. That would go a long way to closing the gap between the better stick and brick lofts and the online sources.

I would also say that I completely agree that most cruisers, especially those ordering panel cut dacron sails, would never notice the difference between the kind of custom design that I am thinking of, vs. the type of online ordering that I was thinking of.

I guess some of my concerns result from my perceptions of the differences between online lofts and the better brick and stick lofts. I would love to hear your comments since these perceptions are largely based on comments made by representatives of those brick and stick lofts.

For example, the loft that I deal with most claims that they order the fabric for each project by the project, and that every piece of cloth is optically scanned for uniformity of weave and thread size, and that samples are routinely tested for stretch and stain characteristics. They claim that they reject a fairly large percentage of the fabric that they test, and that those rejected fabrics are used by (theirs and other) online lofts to help reduce cost.

I agree with you about flow analyis and aero-elastic strain analysis being overkill for traditional crosscut or tri-radial panelled cruising sails. On the other hand, I certainly saw the benefits in my case with an Aramid non-membrane sail. The sail maker had put pieces of tape on my old sails in a number of locations with precise dimension marks that allowed them to calibrate the digital images and had taken pictures at several locations, and had measured the static and the loaded shroud tensions at the time that the pictures where taken.

The calibrated pictures in light air vs. the those taken in heavier air showed that the luff curve was closer to a simple catenary in light air, but showed a tighter radius in the lower third of the luff in heavier air. The aero-elastic images showed that the optimized cut of the luff curve would be different between if cut to optimize light air shape and if cut to optimize heavy air shape.

Since as a single-handed racer and performance oriented cruiser with a comparatively rare, fractionally rigged 38 footer, who was looking for as broad a wind speed range as possible for each sail size, I was looking at a customized design. In each case, I elected to optimize the sail design for the heavier end of the wind range since the performance difference was smaller in light air than in heavier air. Once that decision was made, given the heavy air optimization, the panels were checked a several orientations and were rotated a few degrees, which the analysis showed would minimize stretch and increase the useful life of the sail. It was impressive to see the data and be able to make what I considered to be an optimized decision.

Now then, I understand your point about cost. There was sailmaker's time in the making the measurements, and time in producing the customized analysis. This now comes to my own disclosure. In the past, I often rode shotgun when someone was working on a new sail inventory, helping them pick a loft and the specifics for a sail or entire suit if sails, that they were ordering. As a result I have been in and out of the lofts more frequently than most folks, and certainly was involved in more sail buying decisions than my own boat would require. I somewhat suspect that I may have gotten more serious treatment and perhaps better pricing than the average sail purchaser. I don't know that to be true, but it certainly has been suggested by some of the people who I have brought in to the lofts.

When I buy a sail, I also always ask the loft whether there is a time of year to order the sail, and/or have it produced that would earn a discount, and take advantage of that as well. (My sense is that the discounts are not as big as they used to be in the days before globalized production.)

With that disclosed, I just have not seen the kind of cost savings that I would have expected from the online lofts. When I was ordering my mainsail, and also when I ordered most recent jib a year earlier, I also filled out online price quote forms. I can't recall whether Pryde Sails was one those.

I supplied four online sources the sail dimensions, and the fabric manufacturer and specific fabric that I wanted, as well as the specific details of the sail that I wanted incorporated.

I was surprised that the online prices generally came in around the price I was quoted from the brick and stick loft, two were cheaper with the largest savings being somewhere around three hundred dollars (less than 10% of the sail cost) and the highest online price exceeding the brick and stick price by a few hundred dollars. At least one online loft declined to provide a price saying they don't work in that type of cloth. The thing that was striking is that the brick and stick price included the sailing time on my boat, data collection, and the analysis process.

I readily acknowledge that I cannot really argue whether the extra effort was necessary or even beneficial. And I know that some of these exercises have more intellectual value than real value. I also know that had the sailmaker simply used their judgement (rather than look at alternatives with me, or gone through the detailed analysis) I might have ended up with the same or a better sail. Of course any hint of a position on that would be entirely conjecture on my part.

Lastly, perhaps to put this in perspective, like you, I race a J-70 (OPB) and last spring I attended a J-70 class forum with reps from the local major lofts.

What was amazing was that amoungst the top sailors in the class, there was a wildly broad range of opinions on how to set up the rigs, trim the jibs, how high to point or foot, target speeds etc. This divergence in turn was reflected in the major lofts producing several generations of J-70 jibs, and now offering multiple jib cut options each optimized for the sailing and trimming style, of each crew type, as well crew skill level since some of these sail cuts require constant halyard and sheet trim beyond the skill of us duffers in the class, who arguably do better with a more forgiving sail cut. If one cut can't satisfy the needs of a one design class like the J-70, then I am not sure that any one size fits all can satisfy most performance sailors. By the same token, the J-70 class is populated by some of the top sailors in the world, and that analogy may have little bearing on us normal folk.

Respectfully,
Jeff
 
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#67 · (Edited)
Hi Jeff,

What a wonderfully informative post! Thank you for taking the time to write it. You are fortunate to be in one of the top sailing towns in the country, and you fortunate to be able to get such personalized service. Annapolis is home to some of the best sailmakers, finest lofts and best racers in the USA.

As you quickly pointed out, you have very specific ideas about what you wanted in a sail. If you invited me to work with you on a project like you described, I would have to decline. That is not the kind of service Hyde Sails Direct can provide at our price point. I find it surprising that your sailmaker spent a whole day taking pictures and analysing your boat for a sail that cost less than $3000 (if I understood you correctly??) I think you must be very favorite customer at that particular loft. :)

Design quality:
My "online loft," HydeSailsDirect.com doesn't offer any racing sail. We do only cruising sails. But the same designer who designs Hyde's winning race sails (in Europe), supervises the design of our cruising sails. We require the same measurements as any North Sails/Ullman/Quantum/Doyle/UK/NeilPryde representative collects for a custom cruising sail (with the exception of spreader heights and stanchion for pre-application of patches).

Limited cloth selection at competitive prices:
HydeSailsDirect is sort of like what North Sails Direct used to offer, but we offer a bigger selection of cruising sailcloths. We offer the following cloth choices, in approximate ascending order of stretch resistance and price:

Challenge High Mass Dacron for charter boats and long distance cruiser (cross cut)
Challenge High Modulus Dacron in High and Low Aspect styles for coastal sailors (cross cut)
Challenge Marblehead Dacron in High and Low Aspect styles (Cross cut)
Challenge Warp Drive dacron (Tri Radial)
Contender CDX cruising laminate (TriRadial)
Dimension Polyant DCX Cruising Laminate (TriRadial)
Contender Hydbrid dacron with Dyneema (Tri-radial)
Dimension Polyant HydraNet Radial Dacron with dyneema (Tri-radial)

Racing Sails from HydeSailsDirect:
Nope. Our online loft doesn't sell membrane or race sails. I chose to not offer them, because it's my opinion that they require the same kind of personal attention that you described. The owners of the Hyde brick and mortar lofts around the world can and do offer the same service that you describe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sail cloth:
The Hyde Sails Cebu warehouse has a complete selection of rolls of cruising dacrons from Challenge Sailcloth, a wide selection of cruising dacrons and cruising laminates from Contender, and an small selection of cruising dacrons and cruising laminates from Dimension Polyant. For all of those particular cloths in stock, the cost of materials lower than a smaller brick and mortar loft pays, due to the lower cost of shipping via container load well in advance.

Like the other 5 or 6 big production lofts operating today, Hyde Cebu buys sailcloth by the roll/bolt, not the square yard, directly from the manufacturer. The dynamics of that relationship are very different than the relationship between a small loft and a cloth supplier. For example, Hyde negotiates prices for a whole line of a particular cloth. For example, for the past few years, we have been able to negotiate very favorable prices directly with Challenge on their woven Dacrons and woven spinnaker cloth, and Hyde uses it extensively.

Hyde operates a warehouse near the production loft, to which Challenge and Contender and Dimension Polyant all deliver rolls of cloth by the container load. When the cloth is moved from the warehouse and released to the production loft, Hyde pays for it. In effect, Challenge and all the other cloth manufacturer's stock Hyde's "distribution center" right next to our loft, at their expense.

If you ask me to quote on a cloth that isn't in inventory provided by the manufacturer, Hyde can certainly procure it, but they will have to add $50-$100 to the price to cover the cost of having it flown in to the loft. If it isn't in the distribution center warehouse, by the roll, it's going to cost extra to obtain it quickly, via air freight.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
First vs Second quality sailcloth
A quick word on grade A vs B cloth:

When the cloth arrives in the Hyde loft, every roll is tested on an Instron machine and inspected visually for cosmetic blemishes. If it doesn't meet the tech specs for stretch that are in the contract, or it has cosmetic blemishes , Hyde rejects it. The cloth manufacturer takes back the rejected cloth.

For a great look at the Hyde Production loft, See The Loft | | Hyde Sails Direct

Cloth manufacturers don't destroy rejected cloth. They sell it honestly for 20-60% off full price, advertised as "B" grade cloth. A couple of times a year, the manufacturers email sailmaking lofts a list of overstocks and seconds. The second tier lofts buy the B grade use it for less expensive sails, probably as "no-name" dacron. A few dishonest sailmakers and low end production lofts buy it and don't tell their customers that it's grade B.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quality?

I think it's fair to say that not all brick and mortar lofts are of equal quality.
I think it's also fair to say that not all online lofts produce sails of equal quality.
The range of quality is from awful to pretty darned good.

Hyde Sails Direct is not representative of most online lofts. Although we are independently owned and operated, we enjoy a close relationship with Hyde Sails LLC (Hyde's management and design team in the UK) and Hyde Sails Cebu, LLC (Hyde's production loft in Cebu PH). We trust them and they trust us. Hyde has been in business for 50 years, and I am honored to be allowed to represent them online. I personally know the owners and top managers in the UK and Philippines, and they are ALL people of integrity and professionalism.

Hyde has a centralized design staff and a huge centralized production loft, like North, Ullman, Quantum and other well known brands. Hyde's production loft is a little smaller than a football field and produces 40-50,000 sails per year for Hyde's own brand and others, and employees 240+ full-time permanent employees (with a full benefit package including health care.)

In my opinion, and I am biased, I think the Hyde-branded sails we sell are among the highest quality available from any loft, brick or mortar. Hyde doesn't cut any corners, and they don't use any "generic" cloth or non-namebrand cloth. Hyde controls the quality from the time the cloth arrives at the loft to the day the finished sail ships. IMO, the finished cruising sails we offer at HydeSailsDirect.com compare very favorably to a cruising sail from any brick and mortar loft (assuming you can measure a boat!)

Respectfully,
Judy

PS. I don't race sailboats. Never have. I use my J/70 as a daysailor. It's a heck of a fun ride! It's a 23 foot boat, with a cockpit the size of a 40 footer, so I can take my friends out for company. If I want a big boat for a week's cruise, I charter it. It's kind of like a BMW. You don't have to be a racer to enjoy driving one.

PPS. My J/70 is available for day charters or regatta charter for the Worlds in San Diego in December. Contact JWorld in San Francisco for details. (800) 910-1101

PPPS: Here's some sail loft trivia: Hyde's production loft is bigger than China Sails Factory's, in terms of square footage. Rolly Tasker's is even bigger, and is probably largest production loft in the world, in terms of square footage.
 
#69 ·
Thought I would add my experience for all you other captains thinking about buying from overseas. I recently bought a FarEastSails mainsail and Peak 155% for my 1977 Hunter 30. Both are radial cut Dacron, and both are beautiful sails. Far East is much better at communicating and I felt like I had a bit more control of the design. That said, you are the designer. Both places are sail stichers - not sail lofts. They put the numbers you provide into the same program the high end lofts use, the program cuts the panels and they are stitched together to your specifications. It was not hard to take the needed measurements but you are pretty much taking all responsibility for the final size and shape. The program will cut thousands of panels without a mistake, and the workers will probably line them up correctly on the floor and stitch them together correctly. You might save $1000 but if you make a mistake you might loose more than that. I would but from either again, but am a 35 year sailboat racer, and a mechanical engineer with a lot of design experience. Last weekend my 189 perf boat went by a 135 perf boat. I'm grinnin'.
 
#70 · (Edited)
Thought I would add my experience for all you other captains thinking about buying from overseas. I recently bought a FarEastSails mainsail and Peak 155% for my 1977 Hunter 30. Both are radial cut Dacron, and both are beautiful sails. Far East is much better at communicating and I felt like I had a bit more control of the design. That said, you are the designer. Both places are sail stichers - not sail lofts. They put the numbers you provide into the same program the high end lofts use, the program cuts the panels and they are stitched together to your specifications. It was not hard to take the needed measurements but you are pretty much taking all responsibility for the final size and shape. The program will cut thousands of panels without a mistake, and the workers will probably line them up correctly on the floor and stitch them together correctly. You might save $1000 but if you make a mistake you might loose more than that. I would but from either again, but am a 35 year sailboat racer, and a mechanical engineer with a lot of design experience. Last weekend my 189 perf boat went by a 135 perf boat. I'm grinnin'.
Rig measurements define the geometry of the rig, not a flying foil shape. If software could design foils, we wouldn't need aeronautical engineers to design planes.

I have have professional experience with the software you're talking about. It takes a sail engineer (aka designer) to produce a foil that flies well. The foil (sail) is only as good as the person who designed it and the materials from which is is assembled.

Experienced designer + high quality sailcloth + meticulous craftsmanship = good sail that holds its shape for a long time, is responsive to good trimming technique and forgives errors committed by the sailors.

Respectfully,
Judy B
Sailmaking professional
 
#71 ·
When I bought new sails a few years ago for my humble boat, I had read many horror stories about using internet lofts. Nevertheless, I priced out a new main and 135 genoa from several of them, as well as from a local loft (recommended by my dockmate). Unsurprisingly, the local loft was about 50% more. I decided to go with the local guy, not because I'm swimming in cash (I wish), or because the local guy would come out to my boat and measure (I had no qualms about doing the measuring myself), but mostly because he was a half hour away. My sails were going to be made at a place I could sneak out to during my lunch hour if need be; my sailmaker was a local phone call away, not in China or Colorado, or someplace else where he could ignore me if the job was taking too long or if there were a problem. His coming out to measure and hoist the sails for the first time were bonuses. In the end, I just couldn't bring myself to risk getting crappy sails that I wouldn't be able to do anything about.
 
#73 ·
You're more than welcome, Jeff. And thank you for your contribution. You did a very nice job describing the benefits of working very closely with a sailmaker to develop exactly the sails you wanted. Your posts were a valuable contribution to the depth and breadth of the discussion

Judy.
 
#74 ·
I agree Judy, although I would suspect the software was created by aeronautical engineers, and it calculates the panel sizes needed to create a foil. There measurements needed for items like my roller, and where I wanted the sail to trim. Also mast bend and specifying the amount of roach, where I wanted it etc. I could have told the local sail designer who is at our club once a month to make a me a good club racing sail and not have to worry about it. As for the rig dimensions, they should always be measured. I think my H30 has had 3 mast-head rigs and the new ones are fractional. I measured everything and when I got the design details back I measured again out of fear that if it was wrong I would be pretty much out of luck.
 
#75 · (Edited)
I agree Judy, although I would suspect the software was created by aeronautical engineers, and it calculates the panel sizes needed to create a foil. There measurements needed for items like my roller, and where I wanted the sail to trim. Also mast bend and specifying the amount of roach, where I wanted it etc. I could have told the local sail designer who is at our club once a month to make a me a good club racing sail and not have to worry about it. As for the rig dimensions, they should always be measured. I think my H30 has had 3 mast-head rigs and the new ones are fractional. I measured everything and when I got the design details back I measured again out of fear that if it was wrong I would be pretty much out of luck.
Actually the software was not written by practicing Aeronautic Engineers.

The software used by Hyde Sails LLC (SailPack) was written by a team of sail design specialists whose leaders consist of a brilliant former America's Cup sail designer, a brilliant and groundbreaking PhD in Fluid Dynamics and Computational Geometry, and a brilliant computer scientist. Each of them has participated in every America's Cup for the last 20 years.

The person who wrote the AeroElastic Finite Element Anaysis module has over 20 years of experience in AC sail development.

The other leading sail design software, Smar Azure, has been developed over the past 10 years by a similar team, chock full of brilliant sail specialists who have PhDs in similar disciplines and similar backgrounds exclusively in sail design. The owner of the company wrote her PhD thesis in sail design.

To go from rig dimensions to cutting panels requires numerous inputs from a real sail designer if you want a sail that matches the boat and the sailor's intended use. A sail designer chooses things that most buyers don't even consider: Amount of twist, draft position (fine for pointing but fussy? or rounded for a wide groove?), leech openess (relatively closed for pointing? relatively open for wider trimming groove, depending on the tenderness of the boat and the stall profile of the rudder), panel alignment, etc..... and much more.

There's a lot more to designing a sail than figuring out the luff, leech, foot and girth dimensions. All you need for that is rig and hardware dimensions, high school geometry and a copy of the handicap rules.

My company, www.HydeSailsDirect.com, guarantees that the sail will fit when we accept a job, or we fix it or we replace the sail or we give you your money back. If for any reason you are not satisfied, we refund 100% . (see note 2 below) Our measuring software is draws out the measurements we get from the customer, and can quickly find any significant errors the customer might have made. I can train any clever person with basic high school geometry skills and a very little high school trig to fit a sail to a boat using our software. But I wouldn't let that person design a sail that I sell to my customers!

To reiterate: I stand by my previous statement that it takes an experienced sail designer produce a decent sail that is easy to trim and fast. That's a far more complicated task than sizing a triangle and roach to fit a triangle defined by a backstay, boom, and mast (with or without bend and rake)

Hyde Sails' head sail designer, Richard Lovering, is a competitive racer who holds a multitude of UK national and world titles in several classes. He won the 2015 UK Flying 15 National Title and is helming a Quarter Tonner racing in Cowes Week as I write this. The quarter tonner, a 1988 J Faroux design, is the test boat for Hyde's ongoing commitment to developing "excellent racing sails that can deliver the performance needed to win at prices that are sane and sensible" and affordable by the non-professional racer. That expertise trickles down into every cruising sail Hyde builds as well.

Respectfully,
Judy
Hyde Sails Direct, a strategic partner to Hyde Sails LLC
Independently owned and operated

Note 1: To make it easy on the customer to take the measurements, we provide instructions and a measuring kit for a refundable $50 deposit. The kit includes an engineer's tape, an engineer's folding rule, a caliper, and an assortment of labelled luff slides and luff tapes. These are the same tools used by a professional sail consultant.

Note 2: We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone who can't or won't fill out our measurement form.

Note 3: If a customer isn't comfortable measuring a boat, we recommend that they hire a local rigger to do it. Riggers usually charge for 1-2 hours to do the job including travel time. A good rigger can do the job in less than an hour for a bout under 40 feet, including removing and refitting the existing head sails to do the measurements. Bigger boats take longer because it's more work to handle a large sail.
 
#76 ·
Judy,

Thank you for the kind words above. I cannot agree with you more about the need for a skilled sail designer at the controls of the design process. There seems to be a belief in the public at large that somehow computer software can somehow design things. It reminds me of a story of an interview with Olin Stephens back in the 1960's after an America's cup win. S&S were pioneers in advancing the science of using towing tanks. The reporter asked Olin whether we would get to the time when towing tanks will make yacht designers obsolete and Olin replied, that would not happen since someone needs to figure out what to put into the towing tank.

While sophisticated software can help validate and tweak design decisions, at least at this point in time the software can't determine the correct parameters for that shape in terms of correlating sails to the characteristics of the boat and its sailing environment.

Where people also get confused is that many lofts use the same basic software programs, but each loft has optimized the shapes produced by software based on their own proprietary research. It's a bit like I may use the same word processing program as many a great modern author, but I'll never write like a Hemmingway, or a Joseph Conrad.

The art of sail design still remains an art. I usually attend SNAME's Chesapeake Sailing Yacht Symposium. The first day is in depth presentations on bleeding edge work. Most of those presentations have to do with refining software, validating current software, refining and validating wind and towing tank data. It is clear that faster, more powerful computer technologies and cumulative research has greatly advanced the ability accurately analyze alternative design decisions. It seems clear that this capability allows a skilled designer to produce a sail that for any given windspeed produces less heel and leeway, and which is more or less forgiving, and which is more durable. But it is also clear, that we are a long way from having the computer make these determinations on its own.

Jeff
 
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#77 · (Edited)
Judy,

Thank you for the kind words above. I cannot agree with you more about the need for a skilled sail designer at the controls of the design process. There seems to be a belief in the public at large that somehow computer software can somehow design things. It reminds me of a story of an interview with Olin Stephens back in the 1960's after an America's cup win. S&S were pioneers in advancing the science of using towing tanks. The reporter asked Olin whether we would get to the time when towing tanks will make yacht designers obsolete and Olin replied, that would not happen since someone needs to figure out what to put into the towing tank.

While sophisticated software can help validate and tweak design decisions, at least at this point in time the software can't determine the correct parameters for that shape in terms of correlating sails to the characteristics of the boat and its sailing environment.

Where people also get confused is that many lofts use the same basic software programs, but each loft has optimized the shapes produced by software based on their own proprietary research. It's a bit like I may use the same word processing program as many a great modern author, but I'll never write like a Hemmingway, or a Joseph Conrad.

The art of sail design still remains an art. I usually attend SNAME's Chesapeake Sailing Yacht Symposium. The first day is in depth presentations on bleeding edge work. Most of those presentations have to do with refining software, validating current software, refining and validating wind and towing tank data. It is clear that faster, more powerful computer technologies and cumulative research has greatly advanced the ability accurately analyze alternative design decisions. It seems clear that this capability allows a skilled designer to produce a sail that for any given windspeed produces less heel and leeway, and which is more or less forgiving, and which is more durable. But it is also clear, that we are a long way from having the computer make these determinations on its own.

Jeff
:thewave:

Extremely well said. May I quote you?
:smile
 
#79 ·
Hi All,
I had a buddy get the run around from peak sail arrived 3 months late and was made wrong but they did pay for the North loft to fix it
He never had a chance to really fly it as he lost the boat next season due to Sandy. He has since bought another boat I said to use
a local loft Sobstad but he is going with peak since they are cheaper I`am very very happy with my Tri Radial head sail from Sobstad
 
#80 ·
I ordered a Hunter 22 Genoa from Peak Sails of North America on February 6, 2017 and it arrived on April 5, 2017. I had heard of some recent complaints about this company, so 15 days after they received my final payment, I questioned the company about my order status and commented that the Florida sailing community would be watching this order process. This was a golden opportunity for the company to assuage any bad publicity and to show real customer service. Instead, the CFO of the company accused me of "extortion" by telling her that the sailing community was watching, and then had their corporate counsel contact me with insults and threats of reprisal. He even requested that I take my future business elsewhere! The fact that a question about the status of an order (that has been fully paid for) is met with a response like this is hard to believe. I guess this is what passes for great customer relations at Peak Sails. Even if the sail is of good quality, no one should have to experience this kind of treatment when ordering a sail. When Peak Sails responds to this review, as they have with past reviews, the corporate counsel will no doubt attempt to debunk this review by spewing some more vitriol. I am certainly heeding the corporate counsel's advice and taking any future business to the competition. If you don't want to subject yourself to this type of treatment, I'd suggest that you follow his advice as well.

Gary Willecke
Charlotte Harbor, FL
 
#81 ·
Not unusual for Mr. Kelly. What you got dealt is the owner Art Kelly pretending he is an attorney. He does this with frequency and is as crooked as the universe is large. Don't rile me up on Peak Sail and Art Kelly or the other phony business names he hides behind. He is worse than Doctor Diesel.
 
#82 · (Edited)
Based on this thread, I decided not to go with Peak even although price quoted was low. Nevertheless, I imagine many have not had a problem with them. It was the reports of poor communications and attitude that bothered me.

I decided to go with Fareastsails. From what I can gather, the person I dealt with and the company itself is actually based in Alabama USA. Sails will be made either in Hong Kong, or more likely, in China. They do have an efficient ordering system that seems to be designed to minimize errors or misunderstandings. Communication so far has been timely and pleasant. Sails are in production and will be airshipped direct to me. Hopefully in a timely manner!

On-line sailmakers fall into several groups, it seems:
- Ones that have local agents that you can deal with.
- Ones that are strictly on-line and have no local agents.
- Ones that appear to be located in Hong Kong, or elsewhere, but in fact are based in USA or other locations and are resellers of sails.
- Ones that are actual sails lofts in Hong Kong or elsewhere in Asia
- Sail lofts in USA/CANADA/UK etc that now import their sails to be more competitive.

If you have an agent or a sail loft in your area, that can help, especially if you are not comfortable with making the required measurements or concerned about remedying errors and service. This may cost quite a bit extra.
 
#83 · (Edited)
Received my sail from FarEastSails in a timely manner. 4 1/2 weeks from date of order to when Fedex delivered to my door. Fedex Economy delivery took about 5 days. Came from China, not Hong Kong. Sail fits furler and looks fine. Everything appears to be as specified. No way for buyer to be sure that specified sailcloth was used, but it seems OK. Very good overall buying experience. Like their attention to detail.

Only thing about FES, that I found a bit disconcerting is that they make out that they are located in Hong Kong or China, when in fact I believe you are dealing with company in Gulf Shores Alabama. No phone number - only email. It would be nice if they were more transparent. Even Peak and other resellers of Asian sails have a person you can call and talk to. Important if something goes wrong.

Haven't been for sail yet, but will soon.

UPDATE: Shake down sail yesterday. About 4 hours upwind and reaching in 10-20 knots. FES sail seems fine.

I have bought a lot of sails in distant past from Asia as well as from local sailmakers like Hood, Sobstad, Shore, Quantum, North. Sail is a lot better than the 70's, 80s vintage Asian sails and about same as would be expected from any of the well known sail lofts. Spreader patches could have been a bit higher, but that was my fault!
 
#85 ·
Actually To be picky,Hong Kong is part of China now not separate,......
Well, that is officially true! (see below) It's just that FES emails and other documents include many references to Hong Kong and even say Hong Kong below senders name. The address on the shipping documents is actually the address of Wilfer Sails in Dongguan City, China. Fedex flight went direct from Guangzhou to Japan then on to NA. These places are in mainland China, not all that far from, but not in Hong Kong.

I have no problem with this except puzzled why sellers are not more up front.

By the way, from some earlier posts, it seems Peak Sails could be made in same loft as FES!

The former British colony became a special administrative region of China in 1997, when Britain's 99-year lease of the New Territories, north of Hong Kong island, expired.
Hong Kong is governed under the principle of "one country, two systems", under which China has agreed to give the region a high degree of autonomy and to preserve its economic and social systems for 50 years from the date of the handover.
 
#90 · (Edited)
Now it's offshore mfg with intermediaries for sales and marketing.
It seems the intermediaries also arrange for the sail design. The Asian sail factories just have panels cut on CAD cutters and then assemble the sail. What we as buyers don't know, is who designs the sail. Presumably there are people out there who perform this service for multiple sail companies. Are they all equal? FES did send me the computer design for approval. Of course only major dimensions could be checked. This being a simple cruising headsail, I imagine design is kind of generic. There is open source sail design software like this: http://www.sailcut.com/. Wouldn't surprise me if some salemakers use this themselves instead of hiring a designer.
 
#91 ·
With the good online lofts available like National Sail, Hyde Direct, JSI/Island Nautical. I don't understand the need to try to save a few $ by taking a chance with some of these questionable lofts. Yes some might be just fine, but how do you know? Most probably just place an order with somebody like China Sail Factory and then you are on your own. I don't get it.
 
#92 ·
Problem is - who judges who the "good" on-line "lofts" are? And do they offer competitive pricing? Good for a cruiser is also different from Good for a racer!

They are almost all sail sellers rather than sail lofts. A very few do have local lofts where they may still make some sails or at least do repairs. But if you are not where they are, you are buying on-line and dealing at a distance anyway.
 
#97 · (Edited)
There are always two sides to a story and Jake is telling half of the story.

We sent him the following email, with an offer to either refund his money 100% or pay a greatly reduced price for alteration.

Jake approved ALL of the dimensions in writing. We sent him an email explicitly saying that the luff would be 36.2' long, compared with the maximum available space on his furler of 36.8' . We sent him a drawing of the sail and a rating certificate. (see the attached US Sailing Rating Certificate) .

Despite his earlier authorization in writing, he has changed his mind about what he want, and expects us to pay to alter it.

Judy Blumhorst
Owner, Hyde Sails Direct.

Here's the email I sent Jake

Jake,

That is a normal sail. There's nothing defective about it. It's like thousands of other jibs out there. Normal jibs hit the lifelines. Would you please send a picture showing what you are not happy about. Perhaps we can make a recommendation.

Actually, you did indeed request a full length luff and normal tack height. According to my contemporaneous notes from March 27 and my call log, you instructed me as follows:
"jake requests normal designs 112-115% with full hoist luff with normal tack height. per normal design considerations. space 20" grommets. . Judy to send quote bc area is increased."

Furthermore, we sent you the dimensions in writing and with a drawing for your approval before we sent it to production.

We stand behind our products, but that does not include unlimited changes to the order. At this point, we would like to offer you two options.

1) Return the sail for a full refund.
2) You tell us exactly what size to cut the sail to and we will do the recut for a fixed cost of $200 with no further liability on our part for alterations. The normal warranty will apply for one year.

Regards,
Judy
 

Attachments

#99 · (Edited)
I'm not going to get into a he said/she said, but suffice it to say that email "offer" was offered today, after I wrote this account of what happened. The earlier email stated that all alterations were on my dime, and offered no refund.

As I said, my "earlier authorization in writing" was after expressing my concerns to Judy that it would not foul the lifelines, and her assurances that it would not "except when downwind" - unfortunately, it does even when sheeted in tightly, drastically affecting sail shape of the luff. Not to mention that the second sail also came without features I asked and paid for, such as reefing markings, and incorrect tack attachment. Basic inattention to detail that has plagued this entire process. Furthermore,

I am not a sail maker. I gave her detailed measurements and photos of my boat, and told her what I wanted out of the sail - specifically that it would be cut for higher wind speeds and that it would not foul on the lifelines. I was assured that it would fit my needs. I'm really not sure what else I could do as a customer.

I had a local loft come look at the sail today, and will be having them adjust and recut the sail. I simply can't afford to waste more time with this. Incidentally, the local loft charges more than she does to do this repair, but I have used them before and trust them to do it correctly. I'm hardly doing this for fun, I just want a jib that works after 6 months of hassle and not sailing.
 
#100 ·
I've made my statement and that's all I'm going to write on this forum.

It's totally inappropriate and in violation of the Terms of Service for you to keep pushing your point.
You are violating the Terms of Use of this Forum.
See #9: Join this forum and use it to berate a vendor, dealer or manufacturer. If you have a grievance, please go elsewhere.

Take it offline please.

Judy
 
#103 ·
I've made my statement and that's all I'm going to write on this forum.

It's totally inappropriate and in violation of the Terms of Service for you to keep pushing your point.
You are violating the Terms of Use of this Forum.
See #9: Join this forum and use it to berate a vendor, dealer or manufacturer. If you have a grievance, please go elsewhere.

Take it offline please.

Judy
I have no dog in this hunt, and as you say, there are often two sides to every story.

However, if it is true what lazer says, that you sent the email you are quoting AFTER he posted his description of the problem, you are at the very least misleading. It is nice and well to offer a 100% reimbursement but it would have been much more convincing if this offer had come BEFORE you learned that he is telling people on Sailnet about his bad experience with your company.

Calling this 'berating a vendor' and 'violating the terms of use of this forum' takes some chuzpah...
 
#101 ·
My last two sails were ordered from a big name Sail Maker but outsourced and the quality and shape are good for my experience level anyway. Just to give an example of how simple things can get pretty goofed up I took a picture of my Logo and sail number sent to the loft (email) and although the logo was OK the sail number had one too many digits in it. When I looked at the email again the picture was upside down so I guess the Shrilankans don't do well with such challenges. I can see maybe getting the numbers transposed but adding a digit? Anyway they made everything right no complaints but dealing with an international transaction many more things can and do go wrong.
 
#104 · (Edited)
On the internet, the customer is always right, and the vendor is always wrong. The best defense we have to protect our good name is to offer a 100% refund to a disgruntled customer We have done that on a few occasions in the past. We're still in business, and we have an A+ reputation on the better Business Bureau, from which you can assume that the vast majority of our customers have been happy with our sails.

I think we have acted honorably in this case. Yes there was a mistake on his first sail, which we offered to replace at no cost to him. But for the second sail, he changed the design brief. For the second sail, he specifically asked for a full hoist jib, not one that has a tack above the pulpit, after a long discussion. He told us he wanted to race in the Transpac with it, so we recommended a full hoist jib with a moderately high clew for reaching. He changed his mind several times about whether to have the sail tack near the deck or above the pulpit. Couldn't make up his mind. Because we were concerned about the lack of clarity from talking on the phone, we took particular care to inform him in writing about how big it would be and how long it would be on the furler before we sent it to production.

He now denies that he approved the design specs we sent to him and he didn't understand that a full hoist jib hits the pulpit. That's not true.

Here is the timeline from yesterday's event. All this happened in less than two hours.

On May 10, 3 months ago, we shipped Jake's sail to him. He had approved the dimensions in writing.
On June 10 he complained about his sail on this forum without contacting us.
On June 11, I replied on the forum, asking him to contact us directly.
Between June 11 and yesterday, we heard nothing from him.

Yesterday, the following emails were sent and received within an hour:
8:24 am - Jake sent an email with his complaint and asking us to shorten the luff by a couple of feet so the tack would be above the pulpit on a sail that he's had since May.
9:00 am - We open at 9 am. There were many phone calls from other customers in the first hour.
9:32 am - We replied at 9:32 offering to recut his sail for half price, since he had approved the luff length.
9:38 am - I was on the phone with customers
9:49 am - Jake rejected our offer via email at 9:49
10:30 am I started composing a 2nd offer to Jake, this one containing an offer to refund 100% of his purchase price or recut it for $200. (less than half price)
10:46 am - Sailnet sent a notice to non-business email folder that there was a new post in this thread.
10:48 am - I sent a reply to jake at 10:48 offering to fix the sail for half price or refund his purchase price fully. I started composing the emal at approximately 10:30 and had another person on my staff read and approve it before clicking send.
6:15 pm - Jake posted a negative review on Yelp. Yelp send me a notification at about 10 am on the following morning.
6:27 pm - I sent an email to Jake recinding my offer to recut the sail for $200 because I want nothing to do with him ever again. I confirmed that my offer to accept the sail for return and 100% refund was still valid.
7:17 pm - Jake emailed me that he wanted to keep the sail. He stated that he had already hired Quantum to recut it.

Subsequently Jake posted other negative review since then on several other locations. The notificatons are showing up in my inbox. I'll deal with those reviews as time allows, but for now I've got other customers to take care of.
 
#105 · (Edited)
we recommended a full hoist jib
This is absolutely correct. The design change was at JudyB's insistence - she also stated that the only way she would replace the messed up sail they sent the first time was to make it her way, and she wanted several measurements and photos. I told her I trusted her to make it correctly, after giving her proper measurements and photos, and stating my wishes for the sail.

He changed his mind several times about whether to have the sail tack near the deck or above the pulpit. Couldn't make up his mind. Because we were concerned about the lack of clarity from talking on the phone, we took particular care to inform him in writing about how big it would be and how long it would be on the furler before we sent it to production.
Actually, a more accurate statement would be that I expressed concern that the sail would hit the lifelines if the tack was below the pulpit, to which Judy assured me it would not except on a run - there was no lack of clarity, I was very specific. I am glad to see that she is confirming this as a concern (why else would I worry about the tack being above/below the pulpit as she correctly states). I told her that I would trust her regarding that and that yes, I approved the dimensions.

And I am glad that it is confirmed that I received the offer after I posted here, and after she saw the posting. Her earlier offer was to repair "at your expense".

Jake omitted one important detail in in his original post. He contacted Quantum to get a quote on recutting the foot, before he asked us to do it at no-charge. I'm sure the quote was pretty high. Why didn't he contact us BEFORE he got an outside quote
That is false. I contacted Quantum yesterday at 11am. They met me at noon at my boat. The quote is more expensive. I will let logic dictate why I chose it anyway.

Finally, there is a big difference between relaying my experiences and "berating a vendor". If you read my entire account, there were myriad problems with this order, starting with a miscut, baggy sail that wasn't even made of the correct fabric I ordered. The problems continued, including forgetting to order the replacement sail *twice*, forgetting again which fabric I ordered, not adding the reefing marks even though I reminded them via email, and more, over a period of 6 months - none of these othert issues are addressed. I do feel I have been patient and understanding.

As JudyB also confirmed, I am not even keeping her on the hook for a refund, and am having it recut at quite an expense locally. I am not sure why she keeps dredging this thread, but frankly, "blame the customer" is never a good look.

If these posts continue, I will post up photos of both sails and let others judge them for themselves.
 
#106 ·
Judging by what I've seen thus far, and by Judy's very long history here - and her very long history of offering great service to happy customers via Hyde sails, I'm satisfied with her explanation. I think she did what she needed to do and was professional about it. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.
 
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