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Give AIS a rest

18K views 156 replies 39 participants last post by  Classic30 
#1 ·
This was a new phenomenon. Over these last few weeks, I've repeatedly heard sailboats hailing commercial vessels, having identified the commecial vessel via AIS. Generally, a good practice to establish contact and avoid confusion.

However, more often than not, the sailboat noted their AIS suggested they would "come close" or some such and either implicitly or, in one case, explicitly asked the tanker to alter course. One even hailed a cargo vessel to identify that it wasn't transmitting AIS, in violation of regs. This guy just become the AIS police? He even said, "you could have run us over". Wow, I was about a half mile away and would estimate visibility at about 2 million miles that day. Geesh.

First, your AIS is going to alert you to a potential conflict that may be well far enough away to avoid when you get there.

Secondly, these guys in the commercial vessels are at work, while we are tootling to our next sunset cocktail. I don't really care what the stand on rules are going to be when we get that close. I say, alter course early (before the rules apply) and give the fella a break.

I heard one yo yo hail and identify himself as the "sailboat, under sail, a half mile off your starboard bow, what are your intentions?" The cargo vessel replied "we will maintain course and speed". The sailboat replies that their AIS suggests a conflict, they are under sail, and again asks the cargo vessel their intentions. The cargo skipper replies, "we will maintain course and speed". There was tons of sea room in their vicinity.

Good for them.
 
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#2 ·
I can only imagine how much the commercial operators hate the pleasure boat community using AIS indiscriminately. Honestly guys, they don't want to talk to you and the only thing they do want from you, is for you to keep well clear of them.
Having stood on the bridge of ships and sailed small craft extensively, I can say without qualification that small craft are nothing more than bothersome mosquitoes to them.
Even in a potential collision situation at sea in the dark, you would be much better served to just avoid the situation than presuming that the watch stander on that bridge is even awake and that you both have a common language.
AIS may be a wonderful tool, but collision avoidance is still the responsibility of the smaller vessel.
 
#3 ·
but collision avoidance is still the responsibility of the smaller vessel.
Huh?

Not according to the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea.
 
#4 ·
If recreational vessels continue to force the rules onto large commercial vessels, the next convention on COLREGS, which will not include the recreational crowd, will fix the problem. We might not like the solution.
There are times and places where strict adherence is required for safety reasons. But as pointed out by Minnewaska and Capta, get out of their way when you can. Don't make life unnecessarily combative.
John
 
#7 ·
I have to agree with Minne and Capta.

We're a LOT more maneuverable and have a LOT more to lose. How hard is it to tack or alter course a few degrees?

Can you imagine a tanker trying to slalom between all the pleasure boats out on a nice weekend? :eek:
 
#10 ·
I can imagine it must be perplexing for a ship close off the coast passing some port on a Saturday afternoon... But one must realise not only do ships have to obey Colregs but also these days ships are very manoeuvrable. A button twiddle and they don't steamroller Mum, Day and the 6 kids having a day sail.

Sure there will be peanuts who abuse it, but they are, I'll bet, in the minority.

All ships have to do is run an extra mile off the coast, or if leaving/entering port stick to the channel and mention that in the VHF TXs.

Oh, one other thing, a joystick twiddling ship at 18 knots has much better chance of avoiding a sailboat going up wind, or deep downwind at 4 knots than the other way around.

Mark
 
#12 ·
Have you been on a ship bridge to make these claims? You're right, it is easy for the ship to change heading, but it takes quite a long time for the ship to actually respond to that command. Ship design hasn't changed, electronics maybe but you get a 100k ton 700ft vessel moving it doesn't just turn like your 40ft boat. Even if the stern doesn't shift to make the bow appear to be turning, the ship is still sliding straight.

And all a recreational boat has to do is stay out of the channel or stay one mile closer to the coast..

Lastly, no you are incorrect, it is not easier to avoid a sailboat for a ship. A sailboat can alter course much faster than that ship. That is just silly to even try to argue.

I do in fact pilot these vessels, even the 6k ton 300ft supply boat with z-drives I'm on doesn't just respond on a dime, and it's MUCH more maneuverable than a single screw one rudder ship. I'm not just making this up or blowing smoke.

This argument comes up all the time, yea as a sailboat, you have rights over the big ship. But if you want to risk your life because you think it can just "get out of your way because he's a motor vessel," your wrong and my opinion not being prudent or wise. It's physics and hydrodynamics prove you move a heck of a lot easier than them.

Unless you are bound by some unique circumstance that keeps you from taking or gybing or turning up to slow down or douse sail momentarily then you/we should not impede these commercial vessels. They are working so we can enjoy goods across the world. Would you want someone to come get in your way or cause you to alter you course of job just because they have the right? Like osha coming in your workplace just because they have "rights" to..
 
#11 ·
I sail in one of the busiest ports, the port of Los Angeles and you don't get in the way not at all! If you expect a 1200+ ft ship that weighs 20,000+ tons to move out of your way then you need to have your head examined. Here is a little tidbit about ships.
Some of the world's biggest container ships are about 1,300 feet long - that's nearly 400 meters or the distance around an Olympic running track - with a maximum width of 180 feet (55 meters). Their engines weigh 2,300 tons, their propellers 130 tons, and there are twenty-one stories between their bridge and their engine room. They can be operated by teams of just thirteen people and a sophisticated computer system and carry an astonishing 11,000 20-foot containers. If that number of containers were loaded onto a train it would need to be 44 miles or 71 kilometers long!
 
#17 ·
Maneuverability is really not a deciding criteria. A port tack boat running wing on wing is less maneuverable than a starboard tack boat on a beam reach. Guess who is give way.








BTW - port tack wing on wing is give way to just about every other sailing vessel.
 
#22 ·
Maneuverability is really not a deciding criteria. A port tack boat running wing on wing is less maneuverable than a starboard tack boat on a beam reach. Guess who is give way.

BTW - port tack wing on wing is give way to just about every other sailing vessel.
While I agree that it isn't the deciding criteria, it is in our discussion here. If we're talking about in Port interfaces here maneuverability is definitely a criteria. At sea.. (see below)
This situation assumes that no one have an adequate lookout.
At sea, I think there shouldn't even be a argument about this. At 10 miles, sight to horizon, it only take a course change of a couple degrees of either or both vessels to open a cpa to avoid collision. But that's not what we're talking about.
 
#20 ·
Collision avoidance should rely on all available means. AIS is the new gizmo. I prefer to use a hand bearing compass in conjunction with radar using an EBL and MARPA, if available.

I will admit that AIS was handy when I was rendezvousing with an 1100 foot container ship to medevac one of my crew 1000 miles north of Hawaii two years ago. I could pick out the ship while they were still over the horizon.
 
#23 ·
AIS is a collision avoidance aid. It gives vessels so equipped an evaluation method to determine if a maneuver by one or both is required to avoid interference or collision.

In the event a maneuver is needed it can be discussed via voice circuit or a skipper can simply take action so the other vessel can view it on AIS.

But any recreational vessel skipper who has all these modern methods yet still insists that a working 90K dwt vessel maneuver to avoid him just because the COLREGS asserts that he is in position to stand on is a poor seaman...in my view.
 
#25 ·
In the event a maneuver is needed it can be discussed via voice circuit or a skipper can simply take action so the other vessel can view it on AIS.
In the UK, the use of VHF in these situations frowned upon.

Summary
● Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision avoidance, the
provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost, as misunderstandings
can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem.
http://www.lawandsea.net/1documents/mgn167.pdf

And I have used VHF to communicate intentions and have passed red -to-red.
 
#28 ·
Well said, Auspicious.

Regarding that tug captain, he probably was lonely. Usually on those offshore tugs they only have 3 people on watch and the 6 total on board. He was probably up in the wheelhouse driving alone for a good while. (the engineer or AB were probably hiding haha, happens on my vessel :rollseyes:) but that's cool you got to chat. I haven't run across an unfriendly watchman on the radio yet. At worst it's just cordial.
 
#32 · (Edited)
IMHO, none of this is black and white.

On the one hand, as an example, lots of sailors are unfamiliar with narrow channel rules or rules for vessels engaged in commercial fishing, and think they are under sail and can do whatever they want.

On the other hand, in the open ocean, many large commercial boats are running with no one one the bridge, not legally, but they are doing it. The crew may not speak english. That fishing boat returning from a week out may have a tired captain falling asleep at the wheel.

The best policy is to know the rules, but also to know how to stay out of trouble. As a matter of courtesy, i also agree that giving the commercial guy a break when you're out there going no where in particular is always appreciated.

I understand the argument that if you strictly follow COLREGs you'll be predictable to the other vessel, and I have taught this in a CG's master's class. I've also taught that after you pass the test, don't assume anyone else paid attention in class.

There are a lot of threads like this. Sometimes it gets so ridiculous in my neighborhood that you're tempted to turn off the VHF. That's what Mini is talking about. Pretty soon we'll be hearing sunfish with AIS negotiating passing agreements with super tankers whilst reserving a mooring on high power, so everyone from RI to Maine knows where they are staying, oh, and they need pump out right away, this is a PAN PAN at least, maybe even a MAYDAY if the tanks are overflowing:)

Disclaimer: The last paragraph of this post is sarcasm....just incase you're thinking you can get your tanks pumped out quickly by making these calls, please don't.
 
#34 ·
Over long stretches of water, a large vessel is V E R Y able to alter course and abide by the rules. The issue is not with small, slow moving sailboats but with fast, maneuverable large ships who are too damned lazy or unwilling to abide by the safety rules. I will always alter course to avoid larger ships when at all possible but there are frequent circumstances where the large ship MUST alter course in open water simply because a small, slow vessel cannot get out of the way. To suggest that large ships do not have to abide by the rules is total nonsense. I have nearly been run down by a large tanker who was apparently oblivious and unresponsive to radio contact in open water.
 
#39 · (Edited)
The problem with communicating with large ships in the open ocean is that many of the crews simply DONT SPEAK ENGLISH. So if you attempt to hail such a boat via VHF, etc. the high probability will be that they have no idea what you are saying and therefore will not answer. The american and other english-speaking merchant marine is virtually non-existent in todays world; most ships are crewed by non-english speakers.
Plus, your teeny radar reflector in the rigging may simply be too damn small of a radar return to set off their auto-alarms with the gain settings expecting SHIPS, instead of a paltry few sq. inches of reflector surface area.

The best bet is stay off the waypoint rhumb lines used by the big 'commercial' traffic. Since the advent of GPS, it seems that no one travels 'anything' but these direct route waypoint rhumb lines. ;-)
 
#42 · (Edited)
Years ago I offered a suggestion to one of the marine flare (gun) manufacturers that I perceived would be a solution to constant possibility of being run-over by the large commercials when at sea.

I suggested that a flare gun 'load' be investigated that contained the appropriate sized wires or aluminum strips, etc. similar to the 'chaff' used in WW-2 be considered.

Imagine the consternation on the bridge deck of a large ship when suddenly something as large as 10 aircraft carriers suddenly appeared on the ship bridge radar screen ... that would most certainly set off a few 'alarms' on that bridge, maybe enough to wake up a bored and dozing 'bridge watch'. Apparently nothing happened with that suggestion.

I have used a white parachute flare for the same intent when a ship changed course to directly 'over me' at night, didnt respond on the VHF and obviously didnt see me - certainly got their attention, and I dont even speak or understand Ukranian.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Three observations:
I learned to sail on the Delaware River in a 22 footer. Lot's of commercial traffic that's moving faster than you are. Lesson #1 was stay well clear of commercial traffic because situations can develop faster than you think. Make course changes in a way that your intentions are clear.

Watching the power boaters on the Delaware and now on Barnegat Bay I'm convinced that better than half the recreational boaters out there have never even heard of the rules of the road and would be mystified by the term colregs. Lesson #2 was always be aware of what's around you and make minor course changes well in advance to give yourself room and options.

Am I adding a little time getting from A to B? probably.

Does that matter to me? Nope.

Finally I don't assume somebody is at the helm. When a disabled Duck Tours Boat was run down on the Delaware no one was at the helm of the commercial vessel. Twice now I've seen power boats go by me on autopilot with no one at the helm (both were large power cruisers).

If you're in such a hurry that you can't tolerate a minor course correction to prevent a closing situation from developing then picking a vessel with a top speed of 6 or 7 knots was your first bad decision. :rolleyes:

I'm out there to enjoy myself, why would I intentionally put myself in danger?
 
#44 · (Edited)
Three observations:
I learned to sail on the Delaware River in a 22 footer. Lot's of commercial traffic that's moving faster than you are. Lesson #1 was stay well clear of commercial traffic because situations can develop faster than you think. Make course changes in a way that your intentions are clear.

Watching the power boaters on the Delaware and now on Barnegat Bay I'm convinced that better than half the recreational boaters out there have never even heard of the rules of the road and would be mystified by the term colregs. Lesson #2 was always be aware of what's around you and make minor course changes well in advance to give yourself room and options.

Am I'm adding a little time getting from A to B? probably.

Does that matter to me? Nope.

Finally I don't assume somebody is at the helm. When a disabled Duck Tours Boat was run down on the Delaware no one was at the helm of the commercial vessel. Twice now I've seen power boats go by me on autopilot with no one at the helm (both were large power cruisers).

If you're in such a hurry that you can't tolerate a minor course correction to prevent a closing situation from developing then picking a vessel with a top speed of 6 or 7 knots was your first bad decision. :rolleyes:

I'm out there to enjoy myself, why would I intentionally put myself in danger?
Most are mystified by the terms PORT and STARBOARD and are too busy adjusting the boombox to pay attention to where they are going:) I have decided that the only safe assumption is that pleasure craft have absolutely no clue as to the rules of the road. It's the same principle as when on a bike, you have to assume that person making the left turn WILL turn right in front of you.

Rich, that is a great idea. I'll bet a 12 ga. shell could be DIY stuffed with some kind of reflective material, maybe some small pieces of aluminum flashing.
 
#47 ·
man...
good points as always auspicious...

just be curteous and avoid collisions I really dont understand why you want to delve into this more...

are you seriously telling me cruisers out there today are looking at their ais screens and radar and one hand on vhf ready to slam on a big ship or approaching vessel and ready to say:

what are your intentions?

good grief!

whats the point? you can do this on your computer back home in your basement...

enjoy the sea...the water and fellow sailors and mariners...

peace
 
#48 ·
I have worried for a while that AIS would cause problems when it became commonplace.

Pity the people with their new toys don't know how to make an mmsi call. That would spare all the CH16 listeners.

I like to keep a radio watch at all times and feel everyone should but in the high season so much of the chatter is crap. I've taken to using my handheld in a pfd pocket for my radio watch because the low antenna height filters a lot out. I can always hear the USCG and I can hear boats within a few miles. At my max speed of 7 knots radio transmissions that are several miles away are not relevant to me.

Medsailor
 
#50 ·
Rules of the Road

Rule 1: The larger vessel (cargo ship) will crush you smaller vessel as you quote nav regs. On the way to the bottom perhaps you can get a lawyer and sue.

Rule 2: The larger vessels (usually cargo ships) will come to your rescue when you are in the middle of no where and are in distress.

Rule 3: Don't piss off the guys who drive big vessels they are earning a living and are carrying our boat parts and other important things like food.

Rule 4: Don't be in a hurry, pass astern of large boats...guaranteed you won't get run over....unless they are towing a barge:)
 
#51 ·
"Make your adjustment as early as possible and then maintain course and speed. Be predictable." Yep.
A sailboat was run over here not long ago by a Washington State Ferry. The sailboat wasn't asserting his stand on status (he wasn't watching where he was going and was unaware of the ferry) although according to the rules he could have communicated with the ferry and asked them to alter course. The problem was that a trainee was at the helm and when the captain told her to turn to port she turned to starboard and ran completely over the sailboat (the skipper survived, boat didn't). The moral of the story is that you are responsible for your own self preservation out there, let the big boats know what you are going to do so they don't have to worry about you and give them as much room as possible.
 
#64 ·
The problem was that a trainee was at the helm and when the captain told her to turn to port she turned to starboard and ran completely over the sailboat (the skipper survived, boat didn't).
A minor digression, but there is good reason many maritime organizations including the US Navy use "left" and "right" for helm commands. Nothing you can do about people with mild dyslexia but you can avoid letting vocabulary get in the way of performance.

In regards to language, every licensed officer of navigational watch is required to speak the language of the sea, which is English.
Some are better than others of course, and there are always cultural issues. For example, I sometimes hear foreign watch officers calling USCG Sector Baltimore or the Annapolis Harbormaster (!) asking permission to send crew ashore on leave. *grin* It happens often enough that Sector Baltimore appears to have added a page to their flip book to make sure crew have cleared C&I then just give permission.

There has been the underlying premise in many posts on this subject that small boats just have to give way to larger boats.
I have not inferred that from anyone else's posts and certainly did not imply it in my own. There is a big difference between "should" and "must."

There has been plenty of evidence of hideous seamanship by commercial captains around the globe. Of course I did not intend to generalize but I've seen way too many cowboy acts from the local high speed ferry operators to tankers. Somebody needs to rein these types in.
There have been a very small number of really bad performers in the news. There are some historically poor seamen, particularly among large ferries including the Staten Island Ferry and the Isle of Wight Ferry and--I'm told--some in the PNW who seem to operate as if they ran on rails. Regardless they are at least predictable, which is more than can be said about most recreational boaters.

My experience with commercial traffic has been pretty positive.

Large traffic is not nearly as maneuverable as you describe. Although people with personal experience to that effect, including me, have said otherwise you persist in your belief. I'm not sure what we can do make reality evident to you. We haven't even talked about restricted sightlines and visibility.

thats where courtesy and in my opinion simple prudent seamanship plays a more important role than whatever rule is written.
Exactly. Ultimately the rules are the rules but as I noted earlier some simple civility goes a long way.

Hmm. Perhaps I can talk to Judith Martin about a column in Maritime Reporter or Maritime Log. Maybe gCaptain would host a blog ....
 
#52 · (Edited)
In general I hate threads like this so I don't post on them. I don't appoint myself the "cop" for the behavior of others. No matter what is said here nothing is going to change - the uneducated are going to remain uneducated and oblivious. For some reason today I am going to break my own rule.

My experience is that large ships on the open seas frequently like to know one's intentions. When crossing from the Azores to Portugal I had to cross the very busy shipping lanes off Lisbon at a 90 degree angle. I picked the closest southbound ship on my AIS and called him on VHF. I said "Hi, I am the sailboat off your starboard bow. I am crossing the shipping lanes on course 090 and wanted to make sure you knew I was here. Is there anything I can do to make this easier?" The ship responded "we have you. Please maintain your course and speed and notify us if you need to change it." Looking off my port side I saw a string of green sidelights (sort of like watching the Friday night traffic coming into LGA!) Blip! The first sidelight turned red. Then the second. Then the third. I watched as the entire string of vessels passed 1 NM behind my stern (that seems to be the common courtesy distance at sea.) Once clear I thanked them all. After crossing the safely zone I did the same with the northbound traffic with the same result.

As Thucydides has been misattributed to say: "A collision at sea can ruin your entire day." True during the Peleponnesian Wars, true today. And today the paperwork is much more extensive not to mention the cost of maritime court. Those guys don't want to hit you, you don't want to be hit by them. That said there are shipping companies I don't trust. In particular Carnival Cruise Line Captains seem to be like the ship in Spaceballs. "We brake for nobody." The MSC guys are a mixed bag - I have been run down by them a couple of times.

In a crowded harbor or bay my rule is stay out of the way of everybody. I have been run down more by powerboats and sailboats then I have ever experienced by commercial ships. In the ocean if the CPA is less than one mile I will call them on the radio. More than that and I leave them alone - but always stand in the cockpit with my Mark I eyeball to see what is going on - even if I have other crew on watch. I also use my tricolor at sea - its 63 feet in the air and is much easier to see then the deck lights. If I am concerned about a collision and can't raise the ship on the radio I just alter course to open the CPA.

I like Hush34's point of view. It mirrors mine.

One last point. I disagree with the notion that "commercial" ships hold recreational boaters in disdain. Perhaps true when close to shore. But I have never had the slightest inkling that I was being held in disdain when talking to commercial vessels 1000 NM offshore. Sometimes I detected a "you must be crazy to single hand out here in a little sailboat." But (with the noted exception of Carnival Cruise Line ships) everyone I have talked to has been friendly and supportive.

Done!

Fair winds and following seas :)
 
#56 ·
In regards to language, every licensed officer of navigational watch is required to speak the language of the sea, which is English. Now I know it's not always the best but they do know English, more accurately navigation English. I hear the foreign officers on the radio all the time working near the Mississippi River entrance calling for pilots or having to make arrangements with them.

Just thought I'd share the requirement..
 
#57 ·
No one is saying the Rules don't matter and shouldn't be followed or abided by. The original post was stating that we have people that are using their new found tech to exercise their power of the Rules. It's a friendly world out here and no one likes an *******. If you can change course(the earlier it is, the smaller the change needs to be) for commercial traffic then, I feel it's easier for the sailboat to do. If you are in open water and you do it early, you can change course within 5-10 degrees even with preventers, poles out, etc. And if you are in close quarters in Port, you shouldn't be impeding traffic in channels, TSS, or intersections. Also, when in close proximity you should be ready to maneuver and tack with ease or you aren't being prudent.

You can do as you will but if/when a collision happens it's not just the give way vessels fault. Go look at every admiralty case, fault is placed on all parties involved. The court will find fault in you just as much as them.
 
#59 ·
When it comes to collision avoidance my father used to say there is right and then there is dead right. It doesnt matter if you have the right of way if you end up dead. Take action to avoid a collision long before it becomes a possibility. If i'm that close to a freighter that a collision is possible I know I am going to have to take action to avoid the collision as at that range he isnt going anywhere. Colregs dont trump the laws of physics!

The other night after the celebration of lights there must have been 5000 boats (300,000 people on shore) going every which way. Even with a spotter on the bow it was a little scary making my way into False Creek and I'd bet less than half of them had any clue about the colregs.
 
#62 ·
a good report to look at(sailboat wise) is the "low speed" racing sailboat incident one where 3 or 4 sailors were lost racing around the farallones off san francisco a year ago or so...

in regards to how they dissect each case and appoint fault etc...even though it was not a collision between 2 boats...the information garnered and later explained was impressive...

in any case

what academy did you go to?

good stuff
 
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