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Knock Downs

104K views 280 replies 90 participants last post by  Barquito 
#1 ·
Being that I experienced a knock down this pass season, was wondering if anyone else has had such an experience. I've always been fearful of such a think, as was told wasn't really experienced at sailing unless had been through one. Well for me it was a real rush once it was over, as didn't really realize the whole experience until it was over. It happened of Cape George in the Northumberland Sound.
 
#206 ·
I grew up with Hobie Cats on Lake Erie. If you weren't soaking wet and righting the boat at least three times per run, the wind just wasn't cooperating. I've been knocked down from all directions, bows first, port and starboard and even bows up knocked over on our backs. Also had both hulls totally submerged with the water is up to your neck but the boat is still moving forward. Seen water crashing over the deck on an Aircraft Carrier too.
Now I'm older...much ... and sail a mono hull on a small lake with tiny waves... miss the excitement but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to deal with what I used to.
 
#207 ·
We've broached several times in 20+ years of racing, but the most memorable "knockdown" was this one - and it proved to be a pivotal moment on our then-young son's sailing life.

We were racing a Martin 242 - a high powered lightweight capable of planing into the teens - in upper Howe Sound, a coastal fiord in southern BC blessed with daily breezes into the 20s and flat water.. great conditions. This particular regatta was a windy one, with peaks to 25-30 knots and more-than-usually affected geographical shifts. We had done a couple of laps and had just rounded for the final run. I called for the spinnaker, and was immediately challenged by my wife and her friend.. but the competition was getting away and I overrode them.

Half way through the hoist, we were hit with a strong gust abeam and the boat layed over on her side. It was sudden and unexpected, and as a result we promtply dumped two ladies in the ocean. Our son and his buddy (both about 10 yrs old) had been hanging onto the stern pulpit and fortunately managed to hang on throughout this longish moment.

Aside from the issue of having two people in the water, the boat now lay (fortunately stopped) with about 5 feet of the mast underwater, the boat floating on her beam ends and the keel pointing above horizontal. My buddy grabbed our wives quickly and deposited them back "in" the cockpit by which time I'm sitting on the topsides paint trying to figure out why we're still layed over and haven't 'self righted'.

It soon became clear that the half-raised spinnaker had 'filled' underwater and was preventing the boat for rolling upright. "Blow the halyard" says I, and the boat finally stood up straight (rather rapidly).. at this point, the girls are truly "in" the cockpit, the spinnaker had stuck itself through the shrouds during it's submerged efforts, and when the boat came up the weight of the water in the kite tore off the spreader on that side.

Busily squaring away, dropping the main, and trying to recover the sodden kite,(and keep the rig up) no one on the stellar crew noticed that the guy who had been 'sitting on the topside paint' (me!) was, as a result of the sudden righting, now doing a pretty good imitation of the old "kilroy was here" graffitti, hanging over the side with a death grip on the toe rail.

In the end the errant 'skipper' was recovered as well, the rig secured and we returned to the club without further damage.

As to the pivotal role this played for our son, as a result of my disregarding the ladies' objections to flying the chute they pretty much refused to race with us after that. Our son and his friend (our boat partners' son) replaced the women at 10 years of age and sailed/raced with us throughout their teen years. As many of you may remember, he is a boat owner and avid racer himself now, no doubt at least in part due to that particular episode.....
 
#208 ·
A knockdown happend to me once on Lake Superior on my C&C 36. It was a beautiful sunny day and was blowing about 15 all day. I could see a puff of wind coming across the water but it looked the same as all the other puffs we had that day. No big deal, right?

The wind hit us while we were on a beam reach, port side. The gust had to be in the 30+ range. We were sailing with a 105 and main and the wind just laid us flat over on the starboard rail and held us there. The spreaders were about 4 feet from the water. My friend Fred, who is 6"8", was holding on to the port primary winch and his feet were in the water. I was standing on the starboard cockpit coaming and hanging onto the wheel and backstay.

We stay in this position for about 10 seconds, but it felt like an enternity.
We eventually came up and there was very little damage. I saw another gust coming so turned to starboard and let the wind push us. The second gust was not quite as strong, but I figured if I am going to lose the rig, let it fall forward, away from the people.

The entire ordeal last less then 15 minutes. After it was over there was barely enough wind to sail, so we motored 5 miles back to the marina. When we came in we were the only boat without major damage. Other boats in the marina that were out had shredded sails, furler drum failures, and one broken boom. Fred's wife had been sleeping below on the port settee and was thrown into the saloon table. She got a big bruise and the table suffered a bent hinge. We were very lucky.

That's Lake Superior for you.
 
#209 ·
When on a close reach trying to round the Cape Canaveral shoals, I was
already leaning pretty good in 15-20 knots and fell off a wave, lost my
outboard and some other items in the cockpit in the process, but popped
right back up. So you don't need to be in storm conditions, takes just 1
rouge wave....
Tom
 
#210 ·
knock downs

Never thought this topic would bring about such excitement. To the lake sailors, my sympathies. I learned to ride the main sheets in order to keep from a knockdown in Wisconsin lakes and on the Great Lakes, all of which I sailed as a much younger and less experienced sailor. On lakes one usually does not cleat the main as you would on the Ocean. The reason is exactly for the reasons ennumerated by our hobbie cat friend. If you do cleat tyhe main you are just asking for a knockdown. I was very surprised that this habbit of holding the main sheet in ones hands is very hard to break. It probably took me two to three years to get brave enough to cleat the main once I started sailing off California shores. The practice of holding the main in ones hands is by the way very tiring and hard on your hands. I remember some very memorable cramps that took days to get rid of. To all good sailing.
 
#211 ·
Flying a spinnaker on my 21' Victory "Reba's Liberty". I think it was a day after a hurricane or something because there were still strong winds/maybe gusts about on the South River in Annapolis.

Needless to say, we got heeled wayyy over and started taking water into the not-self-bailing cockpit (into the boat). I quickly released everything that was spinnaker-related, which worked. Afterward, we had a spinnaker streaming from the top of the mast like a flag on a long line. Got that down by throwing a line over it and hauling it down.

Regards,
Brad
 
#214 ·
ReadyRod—

Just curious, but you seem to be pushing that website an awful lot—two posts...two mentions... what is your relationship to that site???
 
#215 ·
Years of racing on SF Bay I've got plenty of examples - but none more memorable than when I was asked to come help train some newbies on an Olson 30. Masthead kite - 20+ knots near the golden gate and an ebb. We rounded down very hard, spin pole in the water, etc, and the boat jibed. no one hurt but a total yard sale, people hanging on, etc. What was most interesting is that 2 of us with dinghy background thought we might have to get on the keel - we were on our side forever. The Olson floats nicely on her side - water doesn't get within more than 6" of the companionway. I'd say we were on our side, masthead in the water for a good 45 seconds before the main gybed and the boat popped up. Spin had floated up and was sucked over the upper spreader and was draped all over the rig. Took hoisting a guy to clear it all up.

I'd also say that the J29 and Express 37s both float high enough on their sides to keep water out of the companionways....

If you want some real fun, pitchpole an International 14 at full speed...
 
#216 ·
Nice! I've always wondered how my C27 would fare on it's side. The companionway looks pretty damn wide at the top. And I'm in the process of looking for a spi for next season, so it could very well happen.

Anyone had their C27 laydown? Did it stay "dry"?
 
#217 ·
Smacky, I used to have a Catalina 25, and laid it down, numerous times (to see what would happen), until the rudder lifted out of the water. The water didn't come anywhere near the companionway. If I laid it down quickly, a couple of gallons of water poured over the gunwale, just forward of the winch, and, if I laid it down more gradually, no water came over the gunwale. This was on a small, inland lake, which was less choppy than a bigger body of water. The design of the C25 is somewhat similar to the C27.
 
#219 ·
I had a Catalina 25, and will never forget my first race.. Of course, I was not the captain.

We were so heeled over, i thought I would have to 'step out' onto the keel ( which I really never knew what they look like ".

Very scary stuff for a noobie. I laughed the entire time from fear and may have wet myself a little. haha.

I have YET to lay 'my' boat like that.
 
#220 ·
I had the boat start to broach in the worst possible location, poor conditions as the sun was setting. I had to sail into this location as my prop shaft has problems, causing huge cavitation in the following seas. As it happens, this would have occurred under sail or under motor - we sail, its what we do!

We were sailing into Mooloola River which has a narrowish NW/SE rock wall lined entrance. It was blowing 25-30 from the N and there was a 1.5-2.5m swell, exacerbated by the shallowing at the entrance - almost making it a bar crossing. There was dredging operations at the western wall, narrowing it further.

The sun was setting over my right shoulder causing large shadows. It was difficult to see into the troughs of the seas. So the wind behind was behind,and at the entrance, a swell was standing up on the port quarter. I was watching out for about 15 kayakers and a few paddle board surfers as we approached - not easy in the swell, worse in the failing light.

Right at the entrance, I eased sheets, spilling some air out of the genny in order to time the entrance on the back of a swell, some had been breaking across the entrance. At the right time, I cranked on the genny back on and then I saw 3 more kayakers, just in front, about to paddle across the entrance and right under the bow. They obviously couldnt judge my speed. I eased the genny back a notch to let him pass - I now couldnt compromise boat speed as I was committed.

As my concentration is on these 3, I didnt notice a larger swell which flicked us over to stb and the bow to port. I saw the eastern rock wall approach rather rapidly and fought the wheel. The boat responded well, we recieved a slap of water into the cockpit, drenching the cat. One kayaker had crossed in front was paddling as if his life depended on it. The other 2 stayed away.

So nothing broken or harmed, but a scare for us, the cat and the first kayaker. They have as much right to be there as I do, but its like playing on the freeway for them.
 
#223 ·
I had the boat start to broach in the worst possible location, poor conditions as the sun was setting. I had to sail into this location as my prop shaft has problems, causing huge cavitation in the following seas. As it happens, this would have occurred under sail or under motor - we sail, its what we do!

We were sailing into Mooloola River which has a narrowish NW/SE rock wall lined entrance. It was blowing 25-30 from the N and there was a 1.5-2.5m swell, exacerbated by the shallowing at the entrance - almost making it a bar crossing. There was dredging operations at the western wall, narrowing it further.

The sun was setting over my right shoulder causing large shadows. It was difficult to see into the troughs of the seas. So the wind behind was behind,and at the entrance, a swell was standing up on the port quarter. I was watching out for about 15 kayakers and a few paddle board surfers as we approached - not easy in the swell, worse in the failing light.

Right at the entrance, I eased sheets, spilling some air out of the genny in order to time the entrance on the back of a swell, some had been breaking across the entrance. At the right time, I cranked on the genny back on and then I saw 3 more kayakers, just in front, about to paddle across the entrance and right under the bow. They obviously couldnt judge my speed. I eased the genny back a notch to let him pass - I now couldnt compromise boat speed as I was committed.

As my concentration is on these 3, I didnt notice a larger swell which flicked us over to stb and the bow to port. I saw the eastern rock wall approach rather rapidly and fought the wheel. The boat responded well, we recieved a slap of water into the cockpit, drenching the cat. One kayaker had crossed in front was paddling as if his life depended on it. The other 2 stayed away.

So nothing broken or harmed, but a scare for us, the cat and the first kayaker. They have as much right to be there as I do, but its like playing on the freeway for them.
Wow - just saw this ST. Very nice!

Did the cat get all aggro on the yakers?

Tristan - you need to check out the "Heavy Weather Sailing" thread in "Seamanship". GREAT STUFF THAT!
 
#221 ·
Question. In winds sustained 25 knots or more would it be wise to just go ahead and jury rig a drag system to prevent such destabilization from occuring in the first place?
Like shifting drag, toward astern, from one side of the boat to the other with use of a steering bridle attached with rolling hitches to the tow line.
The further to one side or the other the drag is moved the more effective it is. A car tire could perform this admirably, or even a worthy bucket. Anyway, I was just thinking of ways to AVOID these situations in the first place and wanted to ask if such a concept would work.
 
#222 ·
Trisstan.
Yep, very true. A retrieval system is also needed (or a sharp knife)
A drogue/ brake type system is to be used in open water if you are in danger of pitchpoling or if you wish to slow down in order to let the weather pass over (be in it for less time by not running with it). The seas would have to be huge - and the wind.

I had a para-anchor on the previous boat - learnt how to use and retrieve it, but never needed in anger. I had been in 65kn and 4-6m swells and did not need the para anchor at that stage. I had sea room and a desire to head in the general direction I was being shoved.

A friend in the same class/model yacht crossed the Tasman and had the same system as I did. He was really hammered and deployed the para anchor. He cut it before it tore out his samsom post - possibly not enough rode - but the postmortem discussion is academic.

25kn in open water is a good sailing breeze.

The situation I was describing earlier in this thread was arriving at a narrow entrance harbour, having to turn to get in, allowing the seas to be on the quarter, whilst my attention was momentarily distracted/surprised by some kayakers.

I firmly believe that you can prepare for most things you can think of, but reality is that each situation is novel and requires a decision and you just live with that decision. Know your boat very well and have it working and maintained. In other words get some sea time under your belt.

The more experience you get, the easier the decision is to make and you seem to get 'luckier'. Then you gasbag on SN....
 
#224 ·
Let the hard core racers get all aggro with me but...

We had our last PHRF Weds. beer can races yesterday. Forecast was for gusts to 30 mph and when we surveyed the situation from our mooring my racing partner and I decided to throw the first reef in the main since we were shorthanded. We race on the lower Hudson near some 300' tall cliffs that can really make the NW winds fluky.
The winds were stronger out on the river by the starting line and many boats were getting rounded up by the strong sudden gusts. Our next problem was figuring out how much jib to unfurl so the boat wasn't constantly being knocked down. We ended up using about a 100% of our 150 genny until a few particularly vicious gusts hit us near the cliffs. The gusts seemed to veer through about 90 degrees (from N to W) in a few seconds and we were knocked over such that river water was in our cockpit. We had to reduce the jib further and rounded our upwind mark.
The VHF was crackling with calls to the race committee as other boats abandoned the race. The RC had called for mandatory use of PFD's (life preservers) and several boats were disqualified (DSQ) because they did not comply with the RC's edict. One boat that abandoned the race had wind instruments on board and reported that they were hit with a gust of 38 kts when they got knocked down. They abandoned because they did not have a smaller jib then 140. We reefed and furled and finished in 2nd place and nothing broke. My underwear was wet but otherwise clean. Never had that much water in our cockpit before from going over.
 
#226 ·
St. Anna,
I guess you could call it that but our cliffs and hills are only around 300 - 500' high.
I've read several books about sailing near Cape Horn and they have called them Katabatic winds or williwaws (sounds more Australian): Katabatic wind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
winds that roll downhill like, yes, bullets. I never thought of our normally fairly placid Hudson River as a dangerous sailing area like the Straits of Magellan but when the wind pipes up the hills and cliffs do seem to fire some 'bullets' of wind that had me in a pretty catatonic state. It is all about the shape of the land masses and the relatively narrow river (3 miles wide) that makes me usually refer to the winds as 'fluky'.
What was most disconcerting about yesterdays race was the differential between the gusts at over 30 knots and the 15 knot prevailing wind and the directional shifts, even within a single gust, and yes, of course you could see them approaching on the waters surface if you knew what to look for. The 90 degree shift in direction was a bit of a surprise though. I'm quite happy my underwear ended up with only river water on them.
Normally I would have had an open beverage nearby and would not be wearing a life jacket but I was kind of mesmerized and the beers would have been toppled by our knock downs anyway. Fortunately I had plenty of beer left when we tied up safely back at our mooring.
Now I know why about half the boats in our fleet dropped out of the race for emotional or equipment reasons. It would be fine one minute and then it was over on your ear as the next gust pushed through. It would have been really difficult to shake out and put in a reef every few minutes much less letting the furled jib out and taking it in as conditions required. Most blue blooded racers scorn the idea of reefing their sails as it is against their credo of 'as fast as possible' and 'man up and take it' (MTFU) but as a shorthanded crew we had to choose an option that would allow us to finish without getting into worse trouble. The owners manual for my 1967 Tartan 27' even says that it is advisable to reef the main in over 18 knots of wind; so what do you do when the wind goes from 15 - 30+ knots? I don't like trouble so I'll reef even in a race if I feel it is needed.

Hope your feline has dried out and not too aggro after the yakkers got her/him wet! Wind and waves are a sailors dilemma and all the little water craft can get in the way as well.
 
#227 ·
Hi Caleb.
It does sound like the wind was funneling down the hills - its the direction change as well as the gusting I guess.

My views are that you are out to enjoy the sail, not have to follow the herd like sheep. Reef if and when you want/need to - It depends on my mood as well -

If I want a quiet slide, listening to Bob Marley or Ceredwen or whatever - I point the boat to the sea and set sail for the breeze, sit in the cockpit and chill out.

Sometimes I get TOLD to put a reef in the sail by my poor shivering, wet companions. I try to always have fastish, safe yachts and used to love cleaning up the 'racing types' who are all ego and mouth. I have grown up a bit and now let it wash over.

The cat grew up on the boat - she has used up a few of her 9 lives already (and so did the idiot who tried to get in front of 17tonnes surfing in!)

Until then, it was a great sail - the boat actually sings when she is flying.
 
#228 ·
St. Anna,
Agreed. Following the herd is for sheep and cattle and those that listen to mainstream news outlets. Bob Marley always sets a wonderful mood too.
On our little 27' boat we have no stereo though so it is always about the wind, waves and clouds or "Wind, Sand and Stars" as the St. Exupery novel points out (great book by the way). I never thought we would get our little boat that far over with her 3-1/2 tonnes of weight though with a reef in the main.
My boat always sings to me in her way when she is doing her best with the wind that she has. It is not about wind instruments or GPS or whatever but a visceral feel of the boat laboring to go in one direction or another. What is scary is the higher winds that 50 S latitude or even the north Atlantic can stir up and even local high wind events.
I am always learning something and so far have been able to report my findings. When I have bitten off more then I can chew I will not report back on my observations/impressions.
Your boat weighs 17 tonnes???
Jebus!
 
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