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Crimping versus Soldering

117K views 285 replies 73 participants last post by  desert rat 
#1 ·
I am not trying to bring up another very heated argument on this board, but I would like to tell anyone still soldering that almost without exception, EVERY soldered joint on the V-42 we have is corroding and failing. It may have taken close to 20 years to do it, but we did not find these issues on ANY of the crimped joints... NONE.

If that is not a first hand testimonial to crimp over solder, I do not know what is.

- CD
 
#181 ·
ja-
About the only way to save on quality connectors is to close your eyes, bite the bullet, and buy the box of 100 ps. instead of buying a couple at a time. The damn things are simply expensive no matter how you look at it. You may find a local "electrical supply house" carries the same grades for a little less than other sources. The best ones often have a seamless copper tube as an inner lining. That's not tinned, but a dab of silicone grease before you insert the wire accomplishes the same purpose. The seamless inner liner is supposed to provide a more uniform crimp than any type of "seamed" construction. Beyond that...you have to see what is offered and make your own choice about whether it is good enough.

bh-
Those blade connectors are not all the same. If you look carefully at a brand name like Fast-On, you'll usually see a dimple neaer the edge of the blade. When you snap their "qd" fittings together, a bump on one piece snaps down into the dimple on the other, making them much harder to pull apart. And preventing them from slipping apart, even with lots of vibration. That's part of the reason why they may be several times the cost of the "500 for $5" packs, they simply aren't all the same.
 
#184 ·
one note of importance: lower-priced (maybe higher priced as well) ratcheting crimpers are almost always designed for insulated crimps/terminals. They won't get tight enough on a bare terminal/crimp

and if you plan to use your own heat shrink (or adhesive lined shrink) then you probably want bare terminals

I discovered this after doing a really good job on re-wiring an area behind the dash of my truck. Many (many!) of the crimps failed, and with some investigation it is clear that it is because the crimper assumes a thin layer of plastic (the insulation) on insulated crimps. Without that extra layer, they don't get tight enough.

So while a ratcheting tool is the "better" option, it is not foolproof nor perfect. Just my 2 cents.
 
#185 · (Edited)
They are also meant to be used with high quality crimp terminals like those made by AMP, FTZ or Ancor to name a few. The stuff you buy at Wal*Mart, or many auto-parts stores, does not always have a thick enough copper wall and no strain relief sleeve thus it won't crimp down tight enough because the material on cheap crimp connectors is thinner..
 
#187 ·
Old habits

While I do not in any way disagree with Maine or the dog, I do mine differently. Been doing it the same way for a long time, and have never ever had any connections fail. I use a crimp connector, using a non ratcheting tool. One of the cheapos from the box stores. For a reason. This leaves a slight gap at the wire end of the crimp. I then solder the crimp connection, apply a light coating of 5200, and heat shrink over that. Heat from the center out, forcing the 5200 out the ends of the heat shrink. Then apply a coating of liquid tape over that. May be the wrong way to do it, and might be overkill, but it works for me.
 
#188 ·
"might be overkill"

just maybe
but I'm not surprised to hear that you haven't had failures
I don't think I would have the patience to do that many steps.

While I do not in any way disagree with Maine or the dog, I do mine differently. Been doing it the same way for a long time, and have never ever had any connections fail. I use a crimp connector, using a non ratcheting tool. One of the cheapos from the box stores. For a reason. This leaves a slight gap at the wire end of the crimp. I then solder the crimp connection, apply a light coating of 5200, and heat shrink over that. Heat from the center out, forcing the 5200 out the ends of the heat shrink. Then apply a coating of liquid tape over that. May be the wrong way to do it, and might be overkill, but it works for me.
 
#190 ·
Yes, very easy, waterproof and quick. I made about 20 crimps last night and shrunk them. This took all of about 6 minutes. I pay about 0.36 ea for these 10-12ga ring terminals, so they don't have to be expensive either.

I just keep imagining the messy visual of all that 5200 and liquid electrical tape..;)

Crimped & Shrunk - Top
Crimped - Bottom



You can see the pile of crimped wires in the back ground.
 
#193 ·
Now Maine Sail is cheating.. he's not using the typical Ancor crimper that he talks about in his posts... :D This is NOT an Ancor crimper.

 
#194 ·
Now Maine Sail is cheating.. he's not using the typical Ancor crimper that he talks about in his posts... :D This is NOT an Ancor crimper.
Why would I use that when I have the Amp? This is the same crimper they use to make certified aircraft crimps. Sadly that tool ONLY crimps 10-12 ga yellow connectors and cost nearly $700.00. The T-Head Amp that I have that does red/blue terminals runs about $1200.00.

I'd be laughed out of town if I even hinted at boat owners buying one of these tools. Perhaps 98% of ABYC certified marine electricians don't own tools of this quality. Heck at the mere hint of suggesting a $35.00 crimp tool I was nearly laughed off the board...:laugher

Don't get me wrong the Ancor is a decent unit multiples better than a staking or "dimple" crimper but when you have the best why not use it.

Funny thing is I "lost" both of these tools for about a year and a half? I had not really lost them but had loaned them to my father, and forgot I had done that... The roles have apparently reversed, now he's borrowing my tools....

P.S. I did not pay anywhere near full price for those tools. My buddy works for Bombardier/Lear Jet and hooked me up with a company that re-builds and re-certifies these tools for the aeronautical industry...;) they still cost a LOT more than an Ancor though..:)
 
#196 ·
Wow, what an educatuion! So this means that for me to reinstall my VHF radio which consists of one conection that I soldered and shrinkwrapped, I have to buy a $40 tool and the proper marine grade conectors and adhesive shrinkwrap and redo this all over again. My $50 an hour marine electrician sounds cheap at this point.
 
#197 ·
Pay the marine electrician each time you need to modify something on the boat's electrical system or buy the tools and invest in yourself and learn how to do it yourself. One pays for itself rather quickly...the other just drains money from your wallet and you learn NOTHING. Besides, I'd point out that if you don't have the knowledge, the tools and the parts aboard, fixing stuff in an emergency is a lot more difficult. THERE ARE NO ELECTRICIANS AT SEA.

I'd point out that many electricians don't do a very good job, certainly not one that would hold up to ABYC standards.

When it comes to boats, it is very easy to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
#199 ·
in the end, you don't *have* to make the connections in any specific manner.

soldered w/ shrink wrap is much better than twisted together and electrical taped, but for a very small investment in tools and technique, you can have an even better connection that is less likely to fail or corrode.

In your shoes, I wouldn't replace the recently connected vhf. But I might start looking at older connections to see if it is time to fix those.

I'm a big fan of fixing the worst things first, then when the worst things are all gone, moving onto the new worst... and so on until everything is as you want it.
 
#200 ·
in the end, you don't *have* to make the connections in any specific manner.
There is one caveat to that statement and that is, an insurance survey. If your surveyor does not like things electrically he may note them on the survey and your insurance company may insist that they be changed.

When we bought our current boat there were a hand full of wire nutted and soldered connections that were "noted" as what the surveyor considered unsafe. My insurance company wanted proof they had been fixed before issuing insurance.

If you have no insurance, another entire topic, then the statement above is correct..;)
 
#201 · (Edited)
Maybe it depends upon your tolerance for failure. If you are confident that the soldered and shrink wrapped connection is sturdy and won't fail, then leave it be. If you think it might fail and the VHF is important to you, maybe its worth redoing. The marine environment is much harsher for electrical than most people realize.

The hardest part about redoing it is probably getting to the wires, depending upon your boat. Using the proper crimp tool and butt connectors is really easy. They are worth the money, you'll use them often, although I agree the connector seems to cost an outrageous amount of money for what they are.
 
#204 ·
No, I haven't. Is that when you dress up in a pink tutu and tights, and wear a fake set of wings and go sailing and helping boats in distress???
 
#203 ·
Ok, I have said this before and will say it again: do not solder on boats, people.

B oat are not houses. They vibrate. The vibration works a crack in the solder. The crack causes heat (and corrosion if not heat shrinked). The heat causes more resistance. The resistance causes more heat... and it turn into a vicious cycle.

I posted a lot of pics on Sailnet about 2 years ago as we pulled a lot of wiring off of dads boat (a tayana 42). Tayana makes very good boats, but the previous owner was a firm believer in solder. All of the solder joints, especially those outside of the cabin, were either corroded, failed, or on the way to failing. THe wires on those showed heat failure on the wires and the casing.

None, zero, zilch of the Tayana original crimps showed failure, though the ones on the outside (none of it was tinned wire) showed corrosion on the copper wire. Also of interest was that none of the copper (again non-tinned) wire on the interior showed corrosion unless it was soldered.

Crimp everything. Heat shirink the areas that are exposed to sea spray. Use tinned wire everywhere - though I personally believe you do not have to down below in protected areas. I think it verges on a waste of money down below as none of it showed corrosion after 20 years. If you use non-tinned wire on the outside in a salty environment, it will corrode. If you solder anywhere on the boat, it will fail, eventually.

I am not trying to act like an expert on this. I am not. But I have owned and been on enough boats over the years to give you a factual account and real life experiences. Ande as I mentioned above, and I know this drives Mainesail an dothers crazy, but I am not convinced you have to use tinned wire down below in most applications (bilge areas and wet areas the exception). We noticed no difference between the two.

My thoughts...

Brian
 
#207 ·
sd-
"Is that when you dress up in a pink tutu and tights," No no, you've got me confused with Vin Diesel in The Tooth Fairy. We're dopplegangers, that happens a lot.

Brian-
"The vibration works a crack in the solder." Not the vibration, but the result of folks ignoring "every" spec for soldering wires, that says the wire must be solidly affixed so it can't move and work-harden the solder joint, which then fails. The vibration won't hurt a thing, IF there's a proper job done of making sure the solder is't being flexed.
Not that I'm saying solder is always the right way to go, but I suspect a boat sees less "vibration" than a car does, and I know solder joints in cars with 100,000 road miles on them, with a vibrating engine and road vibration all the way. And, no problem on the solder joints.
I've also seen a ZapStop protection diode on a boat alternator, where literally both wires coming out of the diode have broken off because the installer simply taped it over and left it to vibrate and flex in free space, causing the vibration to focus on the diode body and snap it clean off the leads.

And then there are some terminations that simply have to be soldered, i.e. to contacts and pins that simply can't be crimped onto.
 
#211 ·
ABYC does make an exception for battery lugs which can be soldered without crimping. Also, ABYC is not the law, their standards are advisory only and entirely voluntary. Lots of electronics equipment wiring connections are soldered only. Soldering is fine as long as you provide adequate strain relief on the wiring to prevent flexing of the soldered joint.

Eric
 
#216 ·
okay so we know soldering is bad, so i will just use wire nuts with silicone inside. then maybe some electric tape to hold the wire nut on. i already have the electric tape on board to tape the muzzle of my hand gun up so water does not get in ;)


okay its started have fun







the above is all in jest
 
#218 ·
I had already checked Title 33 (Navigation and Navigable Waters) part 183 which doesn't even compare to ABYC E-11 standards and there is nothing in there with regards to crimping/soldering of cable/wiring terminations.

Title 46, Shipping, is not just for large cargo/tanker vessels, small passenger vessels are also covered with the same regulations regarding terminations that I already quoted.

Eric
 
#219 · (Edited)
Eric,

Here is what I said.

The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR for boat builders, which is mandatory, and partly from evidence based practices so some of what is in the ABYC standards is mandatory if you are a boat builder.

suggestions for a mechanical connection then solder...
I never mentioned that the crimping stuff came from the CFR just that some of the ABYC standards, are in part, taken from the CFR. And as I said some of what is in the ABYC is mandatory for boat builders because some of what is in ABYC is also in the CFR. It is not mandatory because it is in the ABYC standards but rather mandatory because it is in the CFR..
 
#220 ·
This thread is about "Crimping versus Soldering". You seemed to bring up CFR rules in defense of ABYC rules regarding this subject when you stated "The ABYC standards are partly derived from the CFR". CFR rules do not say a soldered wire termination must have a "mechanical connection, then solder" as you stated. CFR rules say you can have EITHER a pressure type connector or a solder lug, EITHER a pressure type splice connector or a soldered splice.

The point is, soldering is fine when done properly just as crimping is fine when done properly just as crimping and then soldering is fine when done properly. Iv'e seen PLENTY of improperly installed terminations done either way. The debate goes on because of all the instant Internet "experts" who have little experience and don't know what the heck they are talking about.:rolleyes:

Eric
 
#225 ·
Well; despite 23 pages of diatribe over crimping v. soldering, I feel compelled to make one more addition. I wanted to point out that on the ABYC code it says that a soldered connection would be acceptable if it is made secure from flexing at the ends of the solder joint (where wires would be bent sharply).

I am going to make the point that if you use a long enough length of adhesive lined heat shrink tubing on the solder joint; the ends of the solder joint become supported by the heat shrink tubing as it is less flexible than just the wire with it's sheath. If you are connecting two hot/ground wires with solder and you cover both individually with heat shrink; then cover both together with a larger/longer piece of heat shrink you will not only protect the connection from flexing you will protect them from chafe, moisture and corrosion.

For end point connections I would use crimp connectors with heat shrink (which are damn expensive to buy in small quantity).

What I don't understand about ABYC's protocol regarding minimizing flex of solder joints is that it does not also apply to crimped connections; as they also create a "hard/solid joint" where the wire is joined to the connector.
 
#227 ·
What I don't understand about ABYC's protocol regarding minimizing flex of solder joints is that it does not also apply to crimped connections; as they also create a "hard/solid joint" where the wire is joined to the connector.
Properly executed crimps, using the correct crimping tool, provide strain relief by design. An insulated crimp of good quality for the marine environment will consist of three pieces and two crimps will be made, one for strain relief clamping down on the jacket, and one on the bare stripped wire.

As a point of interest I have cycled both double crimps and heat shrink crimps over 100 times a full 180 degrees, side to side, with UL 1426 wire, and seen no detrimental effects..



 
#228 ·
This thread is a little bit odd because it does not discuss when, where, why. I mean, it is like asking, "Is it better to weld or to use bolts?" It depends, doesn't it?

Soldering is excellent for small things, light things, and if done in a well controlled manner. Most bad soldering joints are probably the result of working with inferior equipment, in the field, and without proper training. Dirty connectors, cold solder, etc.

For heavy gauge wire, soldering should not be used. For AWG 20 or finer, with a temperature controlled iron, it is excellent - if heat shrink tubing is applied well outside the joint on both sides, for strain relief. Or use two layers, it's not that expensive!
 
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