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varnish alternatives

8K views 22 replies 13 participants last post by  Tahani 
#1 ·
has anyone ever used a product called 'Bristal Finish'? it is billed as an alternative to varnish and that it has better UV protection than varnish. We are refinishing our teak cap rail and i am looking at the various options. A friend of ours had theirs refinished using Epiphanes using 7 coats here in Florida. After a 3 month trip to the Bahamas he came back with the finish deteriorated in a number of places. I know that typically varnish has to be reapplied every 6 months or so here in the tropics - but three months seems ridiculous.
 
#2 ·
Morning,

I decided to use Bristol Finish - Amber on my spruce mast two years ago. Here in NC the sun is pretty intense (high UV) for much of the year. I also have all external halyards and wanted something more resistant to abrasion than regular spar varnish.

I looked at a number of products and decided to try Bristol Finish. I spoke to a number of folks and most reported great results but a few indicated it was the worst thing they had ever done to their boats.

I'm not sure why they had bad experiences. I can say from first hand experience it has been exceptional on my mast. At 2 years it looks like the day I applied it and I see few signs of any problems. I plan to apply a few maintenance coats this fall as a matter of principle and to ensure I don't get behind it.

I'm in the process of redoing my toe rails and plan to use the Bristol Finish there as well.

The application instructions are pretty clear about the need to apply the proper number of coats. In the case of my mast we applied 10 coats but that is easy to do as you can apply multiple coats in fairly rapid succession and it builds fast. I did 4 quick coats then allowed a few days to harden and a light sanding then 2 coats, sanded, 2 coats, sanded 1 coat, final light sanding and final coat.

I applied it during a terribly hot July in 2006 and used a bit of their Tropical Reducer to aid in application.

I plan to wood and refinish my staysail boom and main boom this fall as well and will apply Bristol Finish there also.

Be sure to read the materials and unless they have changed things you need to use the Amber product as that is the one with the UV protection.

Be sure to wear the proper mask as the vapors are pretty potent.

Good luck, I hope this helps. I can't say how well or how bad the stuff is for anyone else but it sure has impressed me on the mast. I expected maybe a year but I have been pleasantly surprised.

Regards, John
 
#3 ·
Opinions vary greatly on this product. I have a very good friend who is a boatyard paint and fiberglass artist that used Bristol finish on his own Beneteau toe rail. He is a perfectionist and spent a lot of time in prep and proper application. One year later after a winter in the tropics the edges had lifted and water had gotten under the finish. He sanded the whole thing off which was a REAL pain and vowed never again.
Don't know how to explain the difference between his and John's experience...but he is not the only one I know who has been unhappy with the long term results. BTW...initial application results are stunningly good...just looks like a fine varnish job.
 
#4 ·
john,

how did you prepare the surface before starting? by that i mean did you sand it down to bare wood with a smooth finish? did you do any further preparation?

when we did it previously using the epiphanes we started with the smooth bare wood, added a sealer coat and then applied a few thin coats first with sanding in between. we were never able to get the grain completely filled in and after 4 coats we are sanding back to bare wood again.

thanks much,

wendy
 
#5 ·
Cam,

Thanks for adding that info. I heard similar concerns and the problems described much like the ones you shared.

I can't explain the problems either but I do wonder if they have something to do with the sharpness of the edges where the failures seem to originate. On my mast the radius of the corners is large whereas the radius on the edge of toe rails is much smaller. The respective locations would seem to make the toe rails more prone to damage from being walked on or worst yet run under a dock or two (don't ask me how I know!).

Small radius corners are a problem with normal varnish as well and require occasional/frequent touching up to avoid water intrusion. I wonder if that type of problem might be one of the factors that leads to the Bristol problems being reported. The finish forms a pretty solid sheet and folks that have reported problems all seem to say it has lifted of in large patches once water intrusion occured. While I have not seen this on my mast, I can see how it might occur.

I did some test strips two years ago to see how much effort it is to strip the stuff and your friend is correct, it is a bear. I found a heat gun and sharp scraper to be about the only way to remove it and that was a chore even on simple test strips.

I can only report my positive experience on the mast as I have yet to have used t elsewhere on Whampoa. For all other areas to date I have used the Interlux Schooner product and find it does well here in NC. To be sure, I use it because I have used it alot, I know how to work with it and it seems to work for me. The pros here all seem to favor the Epiphanes products but I have only used it a few times, didn't care for how it worked in our heat and thus never learned to use it and love it like they do.

When I brought Whampoa to NC she had been finished in Port Townsend, WA using Epiphanes over clear epoxy. I found that finish combo didn't hold up here in NC and in the end, wooded t all off and went with the Schooner. That was also a bear to remove as the epoxy was a pain.

Good luck with your project.

Sorry I don't know the right answer for your application.

Regards, John
 
#6 ·
The other point is that a mast is generally varnished around its entirety, where a toe rail is generally only varnished on the exterior, not the underside. So there are edges that water can easily get under on a toe rail, which may not be the case on a mast or boom. Also, water tends to sit along the base of a toe rail, right along the most vulnerable area, where the varnish's coverage ends... this is not the case with a mast.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Wendy,

When I refinished to mast in July 2006, I pulled off all the hardware and wooded the mast using a heat gun and scraper (that was fun in the 100 degree heat we had here in Oriental).

I then sanded the mast down to 120 grit and then applied the first two coats thinned according to the Bristol manf. instructions. On the spruce mast the penetration was good as we could see it on the lower end of the spar.

The remaining coats were applied at full strength using a bit of the tropical reducer to aid in application as it was 95 - 100 degrees every day and very humid. Those are the facts of life here in NC so you just have to work with them if you have to do finish work in the summer time around here.

Sorry I missed your question before I posted my last.

Regards, John
 
#9 ·
john,
we have the same issues here in Florida. We have tried the Epiphanes and since it deteriorated so quickly i think i am going to try the bristol finish. boy has it been hot lately hasn't it?

that is a great idea! we can get part way under our toe rail to varnish but that would be a great way to finish it.

thanks,

wendy
 
#15 ·
john,
we have the same issues here in Florida. We have tried the Epiphanes and since it deteriorated so quickly i think i am going to try the bristol finish. boy has it been hot lately hasn't it?

that is a great idea! we can get part way under our toe rail to varnish but that would be a great way to finish it.

thanks,

wendy
How did the Bristol work out.
I was thinking of using epifane?????
 
#10 ·
If water can get under a finish, it will over time pop that finish, be it Epiphanes, Schooner or Bristol finish. After several tries and keeping our toe rail varnished, I finally stripped it and let it gray out. Our cockpit cap rail I finally took completely off, stripped it, applied three coats of penetrating epoxy, rebedded it, replaced all bungs, cauked it and used Epiphanes. That was three years ago. It held up really well with three to four coats every year and I had it looking like glass... UNTIL this year!!! And now I have a problem I can't seem to figure out. I was doing my maintenence coats and could not get them to "hold" It was like oil and water... I've NEVER in my years of varnishing had this happen. Then it dawned on me that I had hired someone to wax the boat. They used a product that has a teflon like finish in it on the non skid. The ONLY thing I can figure out is that they got some of that on the teak cap rail. Then I came along and lightly sanded my teak for my coats of varnish and spread that teflon finish evenly over my teak. When I applied my varnish it flat refused to lay on. I sanded it down, wiped down, sanded again, wiped down and tried again. It's still not giving me the gloss finish I once had. So I'm taking a bit of a break from it and will try again in a few weeks by cleaning it, sanding it and trying again to apply the varnish.
Prepping is key to any finish but sometimes, like in this case ,you can do everything right and something goes wrong. Good luck with which ever finish you choose.
 
#11 ·
Varnish alternative-

A Tartan down the dock from us has used something called TeakGuard--it is a water based polymar I believe--once prep is done-- easy to apply and the teak has that fresh wood look, low gloss, nice grain showing. He reports it is easy to maintain- has lasted 18 months without a touch up, no blistering or peeling or crazing

I am going to try it out this fall...
 
#12 ·
I'm in SW Florida and I have used the Bristol Finish on the trailerboards - it self destructed. OK, I can live with that. What I hated was trying to get the remnants off :mad: It's chemical resistant so stripper didn't work, it's heat resistant so a heat gun just scorched the wood. Its hard so I ended up using a much coarser sandpaper to finally get it off. NEVER MORE.

Epiphane doesn't work down here either. I had a beautiful finish and even told my friends about how easy it was to get a good finish. Three months later it was cracking and peeling. I did a web search and found that this was a common problem in the subtropics and tropics. Boy was I pissed after weeks of work.

Now I've gone back to the old tried and true. Z-spar Flagship. A little care is needed but it's holding up well.

Good luck
Rich
 
#13 ·
You might give the new Cetol natural teak color a try. Two coats of the natural teak and two coats of clear gloss looks very nice. I had a tiny bit of lifting of the Cetol on my cockpit coaming but a light sanding to feather it out and another 2 coats of clear fixed it. That was after 2 years of no maintenance coats and un-covered. I'd say that it's a good, durable product. There was some light checking in the surface finish; but I can accept that since I had let it go an extra year without the maintenance coat.

I agree that the main issue with lifting is moisture getting beneath the wood at the edges; so if you can pre-treat the underside with finish or epoxy it will go a long way to preventing peeling.
 
#16 ·
What Varnish or Urethane to use

I live i Santa Barbara and have some questions on varnishing
1-Is Awlgrip 2 part Urenthane good to use over varnish?
2-What Varnishes are best Epifane,Zspar 2015 or Bristol
3- Are there dangers ininhailing varnishes or urethanes especially.
4-Should you wear a respiratory mask as 3M in doing varnishing or urethane??

Jay Dooreck
jdooreck@aol.com
 
#17 ·
Jay-

I have seen boats that have used polyurethane over the teak and the results are not very good in the long term. The polyurethanes tend to become cloudy over a long period of sun exposure; and re-coating with topcoats also results in heavy build up of finish that is cloudy because polyurethanes are not as clear as varnishes to begin with.

I have seen excellent results with Epifanes; but it is high maintenance as a low uv-resistant finish. The new Epifanes with UV blocking may be a better choice; but I have not used it and therefore can't compare it to a product like Cetol. All standard varnishes are higher maintenance than Cetol; you will only get appx 6-12 months of protection out of them before you need to scuff sand and re-coat to prevent UV degradation. If you don't re-coat on this schedule the sun will damage the finish and everything will need to be stripped off and re-finished.

I would not use Awlgrip over an existing varnish. Awlgrip and DuPont Imron (and possibly others) contains a cyanide based catalyst which is extremely harmful if inhaled. If inhaled while being sprayed it can be deadly. If you hand paint it on I would use a respirator that can trap cyanide vapors. In industrial application the people who spray this type of paint use a positive pressure type respirator to prevent any inhalation of the paint fumes.

Varnishes are safe to use; if you don't like the smell of the paint fumes you can use a respirator. If you are applying it to the interior you probably will want a respirator so you are not breathing too much of it. For exterior finish it's probably OK not to use one.

If you go with a varnish you might want to consider making sunbrella covers (or having them made by a canvas shop).
 
#18 ·
Just my 2 pence from this side of the planet. We do not have the products found in the US, so I cannot really comment, but this is the way we do it:
1. Sand the wood down to real smooth finish
2. Apply 7 coats of penetrating marine varnish (thinned for the first 3 coats)
3. Apply 2 coats clear polyester resin (epoxy) by SPRAYING this on.
4. Apply 3 coats of two pack automotive clear coat by spraying it on.

The clear coat protects the resin from UV and the resin gives shock stress protection from bumps etc to the varnish.

We have no ozone layer here so the UV zaps the wood quite badly and this system works!
 
#19 ·
Consider "Honey Teak" by Signature (only available on-line). I've used it on my teak for years and when applied correctly, it wears like iron and looks terrific. Tremendous UV protection. The inventor (Tom Fabula) is available by phone to help you as you go about the refinishing process. Follow the directions provided CAREFULLY and you'll be pleased with the result.
 
#20 ·
With regards to installing rails and getting a good seal, I thought I would throw out a tip that I got from a yacht restorer who also does design.

We call this "bedding". The way I do it to make a really neat job of it, is to lightly trace the outline of the part where it's going to live on the boat. Remove the part then tape around the line, leaving about a 1/16" gap outside of this line. Use some denatured alcohol to remove the pencil line then apply a bead of your goo of choice. Place the part and lightly tighten it down (just enough to make the goo ooze out around the edges of the part, no more). Wipe up the ooze out and leave it alone for a few days, until the goo cures. Now remove the tape (if you haven't already) and tighten down the part good. This smashes the part into the cured "gasket" of now cured goo and makes a very good seal. The tape around the part thing, leaves a very neat and professional looking edge. This line can be used to paint against too. If you tighten down the part, before the goo cures, it can easily get squeezed out of the joint and leave you with a paper thin smear of goo, which doesn't realy seal much.
The above quote brought to you by Paul Riccelli - Riccelli Restorations - Eustis FL (I am not in any way affiliated with Paul, other than he has very patiently explained a lot of boat building technique to this newbie)

Bill
 
#21 ·
I just register and saw this post. Boat name, thus user name is not correct and is being fixed. But-

I'm a retired wooden boat builder and we still do boat work, including varnishing etc on boats for customers.

We used Bristol finish on our mast also. We are in south Texas and our sun is brutal. We had been using Z-spar 2015 and it held up better than anything else we tried, but not on the mast.

The Bristol has been on the mast now for just over a year and is still flawless. My wife was working in a bosun's chair up the mast last week and looked it over- looks as good as when we put it on. We are hopeful now that we can get two years from it before having to add a coat.

On the toe rails, we tried varnish, etc, but as was said by someone else, unless you do the bottom also, water WILL get under there and lift the edges- Doesn't matter what you use- that's a weakness.

My wife (Laura) does our brightwork and she finally gave up on the toe rails, wooded them and keeps them oiled. She's switching every thing else to Bristol now.
 
#22 ·
What about a method shown on MAS Epoxy web site?
I tried it this spring and it looks promising. They use two coats of MAS epoxy and UV protection on top of it. They use automotive clear coat for big jobs. It is simple and result is beautiful. Well, southern Ontario is not southern Texas.
 
#23 ·
I used to build wood/epoxy boats for a living, and I've used epoxies for building and repairs now since 1976. Epoxy is wonderful stuff and will seal wood really well. Makes a great base for varnishes and the clear coat for cars is really tough stuff. It's a two part and isn't cheap by the way.

BUT-

You MUST be certain you can maintain the finish. IF you let it get bad, and let the sun get to the epoxy so IT has to come off, you are letting yourself in for a major job. And that's the real beauty of spar varnishes- they can be touched up. The clear coats ( and polyurethanes) don't lend themselves as well to touch ups.

SO yeah- great idea provided you stay on top of the topcoats and don't let them go. Means touching up nicks and dings as soon as you see them, which of course you should do anyway so sun and moisture doesn't get under them. If you can't see yourself doing that, then don't put the epoxy on there.
 
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