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Big Freakin' Sails

593K views 3K replies 293 participants last post by  smackdaddy 
#1 ·
Okay - this thread is for people that ACTUALLY LIKE Big Freakin' Sails (note for morons: the verb, not the noun). BFS simply means sailing that pushes limits - whatever those limits may be. And herein lies the rub...and the reason I need to explain a couple of things so people don't start foaming at the mouth right off the bat.

There has been a tremendous amount of hubbub over this "philosophy" in another thread - but that thread apparently "came with a lot of baggage" - to the point that the topic itself got lost in the fog of war. So, this is an attempt to start cleanly.

It must be understood that the love for the adventure and excitement of hard sailing is just as valid and robust in the newbie as it is in the big-sailing old salt. The gap between the two is experience and knowledge. And the goal here is not to fill that gap by quashing the spirit of adventure and excitement with a deluge of cynicism and technicality - but to help us all learn, if and when the time comes, how to better handle that moment when mother nature starts rising beyond our sailing abilities. Because if you keep sailing - it will happen, period. And as you'll see, it can get very frightening very quickly.

For an old salt, these limits will obviously be worlds beyond those of the typical newbie. That old salt will probably snicker at the point at which the newbie becomes terrified - understandably so. Yet, there will inevitably be an even more seasoned salt that will, in turn, snicker at the snickerer when he/she soils his/her own breeches in a blow. It's all subjective and un-ownable.

Therefore, the BFS factor of a newbie experiencing a hard heel and wayward helm for the very first time is just as exciting, important, and valuable (in BFS terms) as the old salt battling a 50 knot gale. It's just about the attitude with which the exploit is approached and remembered - and taken into account as they go back out for more. There are great stories and valuable lessons in both experiences - as well as great opportunities for good hearted slams on the brave posters (which is valuable as well). That's BFS.

So, to be clear this thread is JUST AS MUCH FOR THE SAILING NEWBIE (of which I am one) as it is for the old salt. It's a place to tell your story, listen to others', learn some lessons, and discuss the merits or detractions of Big Freakin' Sails.

The following inaugural BFS stories illustrate what this thread is all about. As I said, I'm a newbie - and you see my first BFS story below. You can then compare that with the other great BFS stories thereafter (sometimes edited to protect the innocent) which I think are great tales from great sailors; they cover the spectrum of "pushing the limits". Then, hopefully, you'll throw down some BFS of your own (either your own story, stories you admire, or stories that are just flat-out lies but with great BFS value - whatever).

Now, let's have some fun...shall we?
 
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#329 ·
I have sailed in a steady 30-35 knots, and I have been in a gust of 40 knots. That was bad enough, and I felt very challenged, particularly when tacking through, because I could imagine what a gear failure would mean under such conditions.

But I happened to be at my club when a summer squall roared through a few years back, and the wind speed meter at the club hit 52 knots. Our little lake here looked like a washing machine, and water sprayed up eight metres to the second floor of the building. Outside, I saw a 41 foot C&C racer try to enter the seawall entrance, but they couldn't do it safely without being pushed into the wall itself, because the "overfall" was nearly a metre into our basin. In the basin, dock lines snapped and moorings were shifted. A group of boats were rafted together and very nearly broke apart...there was cleat and deck damage. Later that day, the high pressure behind the squall line produced loads of sunshine and sustained 25 gusting to 40 knots winds. A racer in a C&C 29 was killed by the boom in a crash gybe. A catamaran in Lake Erie pitchpoled and killed its owners. This was in July, 2000. Anyone can look it up.

Fifty-two knots is the heaviest wind I've seen, and I have to say that there is a point, maybe after 40 knots, where the sea just seems to go completely crazy, and it is very hard to concentrate, so much information and sound and water is going on. Every account I've ever read about survival sailing has emphasized how easy it is to make the wrong decision because it is very tiring to be in that environment. So, bragging about BFSs might be fun, but there is a breaking point between the bold sailor and the old sailor, and it's got nothing to do with fun.
 
#330 ·
I can tell ya that when we got pinned on the face of that wave and couldn't turn back downwind, I left lip marks in the cushion from pucker factor. If that had been a breaking sea, we would've been toast then and there. Stuff like that sits in the back of your mind when you've sailed in a few blows like that and ya wonder, will I stay lucky? It makes ya more hesitant to get out there in the middle of it. I'm not quite as ready to charge off into the teeth of a Gale as I was a year ago, at least, not on purpose.
 
#335 ·
For a minute there I was going to have to call Cam on his last post...you don't get 30 foot seas in Force 8 conditions. Good on ya, Cam.

Now to the rest of the malarkey here that's got Giu in fits.

From bestfriend's picture it's of course impossible to tell the wind velocity but the sea conditions are what one would expect from Force 8, or gale, conditions...and it's been blowing that way awhile. You do not see the tops of seas being blown off to the extent you do in 9 or 10. And the seas are not really heaping up yet.

As to the rest of the claims here I'd only mention that wind speeds and wave heights are notoriously inaccurately measured and that a relatively small sailboat is perhaps the worst possible position to do so from within. I am dubious of reports of anything in excess of 40 knots sustained. At such wind velocities the wind begins to produce spindrift. Beyond that, some form of facial protection becomes necessary. 50 knots will blow the paint off the side of your boat.

I've been through numerous typhoons, fortunately never the eye of one. All this talk of carrying sail in conditions approaching those conditions and being anything other than a passenger on board a driven vessel is, in my opinion, just talk. Fifty knots sustained at sea in a sailboat and you're not talking about it on sailnet, you're praying to never see it again. Forget the seas, the wind through the rigging alone makes communication and even movement difficult tending towards impossible. The rain will rip your face raw. Somewhere around Force 10 the laugh phenomena makes itself known. That's when you laugh because you've become aware that your life is not your own any longer.

I'm inclined to side with the Portagee on this one.
 
#338 ·
I'm inclined to side with the Portagee on this one.
After this weekend , I had my own dosage of such. Since you are in these neck of the woods, maybe you did get it. But for three years I have sailed here, nadda once experienced the wrath of the Pugent Sound as I did this weekend. 20 foot swells and the wind didn't go below 36-38 knots sustained for most of the return leg after we doused the sails, with gusts well over 40. Was a long - wet, miserable ride...and that is not including the knockdowns we endured with sails up...but when in it you have no choice but do it and hope you make it back in one piece and this is the reason I think this BFS crapola is simply bs...Even guys on the flying tigers I know - stated it wasn't fun ride either. Boats have limitations, and usually the biggest limitation is the respect the skipper has for mother nature as she certainly ain't gonna give you any....At any rate carry on Smack-a-roos, enjoy the smack... one day you'll have a actually sobering experience and hopefully when you are actually sober or off those there drugs you take...:D
 
#336 · (Edited)
Folks, I'm gonna say this one, last, time. Myself and most of the PNW sailors sail in the Sound. While we have the wind and wind waves we do not have the monster swells to go with it. The max fetch is about 150 miles North to South and the prevailing Gales around here tend to be Southerlies. the only time we see swells with Gales is from the West at the mouth of the San Jaun de Fuca and those are degraded by the time we see them. Sailing in the Sound in Gale or Storm conditions is a FAR cry from sailing in the ocean off our coast. Folks don't gale sail in the Pacific off our coast unless they have a deathwish. Remember, it's apples and oranges we're talking about.

However, the noise level above 50 knots is incredible and ya communicate with hand signals. Radio headsets, walkie talkies and yelling don't work as you can hardly hear yourself yell.
 
#340 · (Edited)
Oh now Jody - you're getting all morose again. One day up - the next day down. Look - I respect the fact that you were out in big stuff, and I especially respect the fact that you got back in one piece. But what you so morosely define as unfun crapola - a dude just a couple pages back, that was on the same water as you (if you are referring to the Foulweather Bluff race) states that he actually had fun.

Ah yes, the very essence of BFS. One salt looking at the same conditions as another and seeing something completely different - and far less dire. Takes us right back to page one:

"For an old salt, these limits will obviously be worlds beyond those of the typical newbie. That old salt will probably snicker at the point at which the newbie becomes terrified - understandably so. Yet, there will inevitably be an even more seasoned salt that will, in turn, snicker at the snickerer when he/she soils his/her own breeches in a blow. It's all subjective and un-ownable."

Hang in there dude.
 
#341 · (Edited)
Im with John..55 to 65 gusts..45 sustained..Thats a lot of mast..

It is totally irrelevant to use the Buford scale here in the Puget Sound that is way I dont do it..You guys in unprotected waters put up with more at 15 knots then we will at 30...This is not a fair comparison and thats why I dont like Smacky singling out people and I made a coment regarding that this is not SA this is Sailnet we get along better over here..Lets try and keep it that way guys...
If you dont want my stories OK I wont put any more here..I tell the truth in all I do so no skin lost..I posted the NOAA wind record for you we were out there..I had a friend along and was excited to show him my boat and get going and I for got one camera in my car...I had another camera in my ditch bag..I pulled it out right after our biggest heal right befor we took in somemore head sail and the batteries showed a red light I would have ruined the camera if I would have tried to put new ones in which I had in the bag too..we were getting soaking wet from spray..I'm sorry guess it must have been a dream...I had suspicions some would doubt..thats OK..

Mine was just a story not ever intended to be bragging or Bravado..I was excited to share it that was all..that my family actually did good and didnt freak out and is not afraid to go out with me again after that.. it was way more then we bargained for..but I was not afraid..never.. I new I had a way out behind an Island if I needed one..I was woried about parting the roller furler line thats all..that made me a little nervous.

Its ok if no one believes me really I dont even care..I was there...I learned a lot about my boat in a few short hours..we had a good time genrally and yes I would do it again because I would want to learn if a little patch on the mizzen would have been better or worse..but would want more experiance on the boat with any more sail up then we had.. I cant find that out over a beer in a bar talking about it or looking at this screen..I will have to go out an do it...sorry

Ray if your serious about going out tomorrow I am ready...Charlie I could use you too...we really need three people if it get as bad...dont you feel the 24 hour flu comming on...:p

I am done here also..

Smacky ..maybe you were right afterall.

And I was just starting to have fun..:(
 
#342 · (Edited)
Still - and everyone else...I want you all to look at something...

We've had many, many pages of great BFS stories, with both Sailnet newbies and salts offering their tales. We've had lots of fun, lots of good lessons, and we've been getting along just fine. As a matter of fact, I think all in all it's been downright positive.

So, the question is - where is all the bad Mojo coming from? Take a look at the last few pages and the posters and their tone. This is exactly why I sunk FC and started this thread - to try to get back to talking about sailing. These same guys that have just done their drive by always kept crying foul in FC that it was not about good sailing stories but comparing wieners. It was a club - they complained - that lumped people into sailors - not sailors. Fine. We rebooted.

Now they're back - and what are they doing? Exactly what they complained about in FC.

I've always held that it was always just about attitude. So - the question really is...

What is the real problem with Sailnet?

I say we keep having fun tellin' our tales.

Freeeeeedommmmmmm!
 
#345 ·
Still - and everyone else...I want you to look at something...

We've had many, many pages of great BFS stories, with both Sailnet newbies and salts offering their tales. We've had lots of fun, lots of good lessons, and we've been getting along just fine. As a matter of fact, I think all in all it's been downright positive.

So, the question is - where is all the bad Mojo coming from? Take a look at the last few pages and the posters and their tone. This is exactly why I sunk FC and started this thread - to try to get back to talking about sailing. These same guys that have just done their drive by always kept crying foul in FC that it was not about good sailing stories but comparing wieners. It was a club - they complained - that lumped people into sailors - not sailors. Fine. Now they're back - and what are they doing? Exactly what they complained about in FC.

I've always held that it was always just about attitude. So - the question really is...

What is the real problem with Sailnet?
Lemme take a guess. People flappin' their pie holes about somethin' they know nothin' about. But that's just my guess. Some may see it different.
 
#343 ·
Rainy,
I'd not take it personally-at least from my end-I'm just questioning some of the wind speeds "documented". What type of damage was there on shore? See, at Force 10, 48-55 knots, you start to have trees uprooted and broken in two. I do not doubt that any of the experiences were intense.
 
#344 ·
Scott I wish I could come but I'm running a team effort tomorrow with very high visibility. Wanting to learn what different combo's work in heavy weather is why I still go out in it. Like Scott reiterated, the difference in what we see in the Sound and what one will see on the open ocean is like night and day in the same wind speed conditions.

Scott, don't let 'em run ya outta here. Some folks actually appreciate your sailing stories.
 
#346 ·
sailaway, our winds are linear and unlike the Cyclonic stuff you and I are use to in Typhoons and Hurricanes. I went through five hurricanes and there's no comparison. During these storms we get trees down and power out, especially when it climbs over 50 knots but not much else. I did have to dodge an entire tree including roots in that big storm. The roots were at least 20' wide so it was easy to spot. Can ya imagine running across it after dark? I also saw what looked to be a brand new basketball but wasn't about to turn into the wind to pick it up.
 
#351 ·
Hey Still,

I don't think anyone was singling out your story. No need to apologize for anything.

I have mixed feelings about this thread, too. But I think it's not a bad spot to post some good sailing stories like folks have been doing.

From time to time, some of us will go back and forth a bit about wind and wave conditions -- some of it is meant as a friendly challenge, but most of it is just good natured ribbing for the most part.

I've sailed up your way, and taken a few ferries across some seriously windy patches of water. It can be intimidating - especially with that thick cloud cover and rain crushing your spirit. You PacNW American and Canadian sailors are a hardy bunch!

It's interesting to hear a common theme emerging: Those who've seen the 40+ knot conditions are pretty universal in their desire to avoid them in the future!
 
#354 ·
Still- what most people don't realize about the winds around the PNW is that there is no such thing as open water. We live and sail in a vast network of venturis (islands with tall, steep sides). When we get the official wind reports they are from places like Smith Island which is in the middle of Juan de Fuca. In the narrows between islands that are oriented with the wind, as you were on Saturday, it can be significantly higher. We regularly see sailboats come through Peavine from Rosario where it might only be blowing 10-15K, and get knocked down to 50+degrees when they get hit, with all sails up, by the "Eastsounder" coming down through Orcas Is. at 30+K. It was just plain nasty Saturday, I was glad I wasn't out in it. IMHO if you have time to be takin' pictures, it ain't that bad (when you're short, or single handed).

John
 
#355 · (Edited)
John is correct on this, as we do get a lot of funnels where the wind can be stronger coming out of a channel and do some damage. I know of many folks that have been doing just fine going north where Jody was, get near where Hood canal hits admirality st, and get knocked down as there will be a gust going twice what it is in the open area.

The back side of bainbridge island from what I understand, can have SW winds go up and over, and on the way down to the water pickup for short periods going off shore to double what is normal.

This makes it a bit tricky around here. I know the wind was shifting on my upwards of 30*. Lulls at one angle, guts shift to starboard and all of a sudden you would be on a reach when on the starboar tack. Over you go! Port tack was almost as bad, as then you were hitting the waves head on, at least on starboard tack you were angled forward to slightly abeam.

I know some of the folks with Moore 24's really got hammered to a degree coming back from the FWB bouy.

ANyway, it was fun to a degree. Fortunetly for me, nothing broke etc etc.

marty

on edit, here is a link to the damage photo's that were taken last saturday at the FWB.
 
#357 · (Edited)
Sorry guys, I got busy at work. That is "Aspect computing" in the 1998 Sydney to Hobart race. 70 knot winds, higher gusts, 54ft boat. Not a comment on anyone's story, just a picture.

Sway, you don't see the tops blowing off because the wind had been blowing so hard for such a long period that it is flattening the waves.

Conditions, demographics, it all matters. Read the books on the race and you will learn a lot about how the sea works when multiple forces, both air and water, combine in in a tight space. Also read Willard Bascom's books on waves.

As far as first hand experience, there is much to be said about whats underwater and the topography around you. In the Bay here, you can get your ass kicked in 30+ knot winds with basically minor waves, maybe six feet at the very most. The wind can feel like its gonna rip your ears off, and your sails too. Then you can go out the gate in 15-20 knot winds, and the seas can be twice that height, and sometimes it feels safer. A completely different experience and it can even be on the same day!
 
#361 · (Edited)
Sorry guys, I got busy at work. That is "Aspect computing" in the 1998 Sydney to Hobart race. 70 knot winds, higher gusts, 54ft boat. Not a comment on anyone's story, just a picture.

Sway, you don't see the tops blowing off because the wind had been blowing so hard for such a long period that it is flattening the waves.

Conditions, demographics, it all matters. Read the books on the race and you will learn a lot about how the sea works when multiple forces, both air and water, combine in in a tight space. Also read Willard Bascom's books on waves.

As far as first hand experience, there is much to be said about whats underwater and the topography around you. In the Bay here, you can get your ass kicked in 30+ knot winds with basically minor waves, maybe six feet at the very most. The wind can feel like its gonna rip your ears off, and your sails too. Then you can go out the gate in 15-20 knot winds, and the seas can be twice that height, and sometimes it feels safer. A completely different experience and it can even be on the same day!
For whatever reason, those do not appear to me to be seas associated with 70 knot winds...in fact, not even close. Now I am referring to open waters with significant fetch and I'm unaware of where the photo was taken and what the actual conditions were at the time of the photo versus worst reported. But rather than just rain on anyone's parade, I've taken the trouble to dig up some NOAA photos as an example of sea state under the Beaufort scale. 70 knots is Force 12 and I think you'll agree that what the NOAA photo shows as Force 12 conditions looks rather different than the photo posted by our bestfriend.

Beaufort Wind Force Scale and Sea State

 
#358 ·
IIRC the 1998 race was the one from hecko that folks write about? I am thinking that boat pictured is the one with I want to say disabled/handicapped folks? I am remembering that pic to a degree from a book I read about the race with the problems.

Correct me if I am wrong on this.

marty
 
#359 · (Edited)
Pretty incredible photo from Sydney Hobart. I've seen foam streaks develop when the wind is blowing in the high thirties but the significant wave had me confused. It all makes sense now. One of the significant disappoints in life for me was the day I got an accurate anemometer. The winds in S.F. Bay all immediately decreased by at least 10 knots. Now this is all before global warning mind you (hey perhaps my boat is the cause of it? I used to believe the wind reports too, that was until I found out that the weather station for the Bay was atop Mount Livermore on Angel Island. Again significantly higher (and faster) winds than the ones I experienced at sea level.

Big question for all of you. When you are quoting wind speed, are you using apparent or true? Giu's numbers for reefing didn't make sense to me until I converted to True, and then they were about what I experienced when I raced the Areodyne. For what it's worth, I use true wind speed, so you apparent wind guys need to add boat speed to my numbers. There is an equation for calculating wind pressure that is something like as the wind speed doubles, the increase in force is squared. The progression is geometric, not linear. So the increase in force from 20 to 25 knots is the rough equivalent of the difference between 1 and 15 knots of wind speed. That is why it is so difficult for most of us to gauge the wind speed without an instrument. All I know that 20 -25 (26-31 apparent) knots is normally a lot of wind. But the days I've been out in winds in the thirties and then returned to the bay where it was blowing in the mere twenties, it felt positively calm.

O.K., you studs that only go out in gale warnings - fess up, what kind of gear do you break. The repair bill for Fast Forward's broach was $11 grand (30knots true). I have also blown out a main when it was only blowing in the thirties. Usually when things go non-linear, the last thing you break out is a camera so I have precious few photos of Freya in a blow. So after seeing CC's photo, how fast is the wind here? (Hint: the wind was southerly for the Bay (about 253 degrees and blowing strait from the City so assume ten miles of fetch.)

 
#369 ·
O.K., you studs that only go out in gale warnings - fess up, what kind of gear do you break. The repair bill for Fast Forward's broach was $11 grand (30knots true). I have also blown out a main when it was only blowing in the thirties. Usually when things go non-linear, the last thing you break out is a camera so I have precious few photos of Freya in a blow. So after seeing CC's photo, how fast is the wind here? (Hint: the wind was southerly for the Bay (about 253 degrees and blowing strait from the City so assume ten miles of fetch.)

That is the big question. I raced last year over Labor Day weekend in 25-30 knots of wind gusting to 35+. Seas were 8 ft. Ugly, Square, Lake MI piles of chop with a few 10 footers thrown in for good measure. We were sailing with a new 145% genny reefed down to < 100% and the mizzen, doused main. The rest of the boats in our division retired early except for 1. That 1 required the CG to come save his bacon after the mast went by the board. We ended up blowing one of the seams out of the genny and having the cleat for the furling line ripped out of the coaming.

I do like the sea stories everyone is laying out there in this thread (thanks smacky) but, when I hear of joy rides in 30 kts of wind on a boat with wood spars and old sails and no reports of damage it kinda makes ya go, Hmmmmm.
 
#362 ·
So now it's a big freaking wave thread.

17 Years of sea duty during my 22 in the Navy, deployed or out of port 2/3 of that time.
I've seen some waves and I'm here to tell you the 30 foot jobbers with breaking crests break destroyers and frigates and dent the big boys.
We had a med-evac off the USS Will Rogers in 1982 in 30+ waves, 62kts predicated wind, as the radioman on board the boat I got the weather reports so I'm pretty freaking sure of what it was.
Round bottom submarine meets 30+ breakers - free board is more than a sailboat and ballast was pumped up to max it out. We had breaking waves bow to stern so big our 30 foot up conning tower was wetter than the girls shower room and awash in puke and snot. The dive planes, half way up the tower were banging up and down, flexed by the force of the water hitting them. I was in the tower, doing the radio thing with the helicopter.
After 5 tries to extract and 10 minutes from bingo (no return fuel) the skipper made the decision, took the near lifeless body of our crewmate and tossed him off on the outgoing wave, into the arms of those angels of mercy we call rescue swimmers.
Our conning crew took 3 cuts (28 stitches) lost 2 teeth, and one broken arm bouncing around in the steel and teak bathtub, I got lucky and only bruised up. Throughout the crew we took a few more injuries, but I don't remember them all. We were on the surface 45 minutes total time.

Call your Merda De Boi boys, I have no pictures and can't even tell you where we were on what day. I have my memories, and they suffice.

Big waves and big winds are for idiots and the lucky few who get caught and survive.
 
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