[JohnDrake]

Really great discussion. Another reason to come here more often.

Jeff, that was a terrific explanation, thank you. Very worthwhile and instructive. I can see now how a plumb bow boat can have reserve bouyancy.

That and Jon''s point lead me to conclude that the overall design of the boat also contributes to her bouyancy and dry ride. I would agree that in either case bow flare is important in giving either boat greater reserve bouyancy and be able to produce a drier ride. Also, as Jon points out, balancing the boat is cruicial.

I keep my boat well balanced and do not carry as much weight in the two bow lockers as the one Jon was on (do you recall the name?...we are a small community). I don''t find much pounding or get water in my cockpit. I do love the ride on this boat (another thread perhaps). I have heard from a couple who cruise a Passport 37 (you probably know them, very nice people) and report that they are sailing somewhat bow down due to carrying a tremendoud amount of ground tackle forward. Still, they love the ride they get with that boat and its performance.

I can certainly see the value in plumb bow boats now. Although...I have seen a few models that do not seem to have much flare forward and look to be wet. Clearly, I need to sail more of these boats...any offer? Will to trade stints at the helm.

Not to detract from the true IOR boat discussion (and apologize if this is a hijack), your points regarding that design are well taken. I think it useful to discuss "IOR Era" boat designs that were influenced by the IOR rule, but departed from it....as these boats tend (IMHO) to be the majority of well sized boats being sold at reasonable prices. Perhaps another useful discussion in this thread is the difference and contrast between true IOR rule boats and those that were competitive under the rule but departed from it.

All the above said, it still appears to me that boats with overhangs at least still have a very good amount of reserve bouyancy forward...I am not sure which design would have more...to me at least I am not certain we can state which has more. I can see the point about the plumb bow boat with adequate flare meeting the wave and being carried up. But...the same would be true of a boat with moderate overhangs and adequate flare (like my Hood and your Farr 11.6). As I think about the bow of these boats meeting a wave, I still see the overhang touching the wave face and providing life and or bouyancy as the bow entry at the static waterline approaches and then rides the wave face up on its bouyancy. I still see a very good if not high amount of reserve bouyancy in this design.

As for pounding when meeting the wave, I am convinced by your model of a finer entry cutting through and thus reducing the counter force of the elastic collision. That does make sense.

But still on the question of reserve bouyancy, I guess I still want to throw into the mix the fact that again, modern deep sea vessals such as warships have overhangs...I see this perhaps producing some pounding (having been there) but also greating reserve bouyancy on those boats and helping with a drier ride. Add to this that AC boats have overhangs and the overhang design of the bow of Alinghi was said to contribute to her speed.

Nice to chat with all of you.

My best

John
s/v Invictus
Hood 38