SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

No Engine Sailing .. thoughts ..

22K views 115 replies 57 participants last post by  rbrasi 
#1 ·
I've got my eye on a nice 30' boat. She is in very good condition, hull/deck..
rig/sails/ground tackle .. but :: she has an old, original Atomic 4 gasoline engine. Been there, done that, not going back . NEVER. Since she is a 4 hour drive from home base, kinda puts me at a big disadvantage. For fun, and some knowledge, I called a local re-power marina. $10,000 .. That was for a small diesel, and to get it in place, and maybe the price would be a little more..
I mulled and sculled .. Then I thought :: $12,000 sure would buy a pretty good zodiac/with outboard .. In fact, a second hand sure dingy with second hand outboard !! Heck, for a couple of thousand I'd find something very sweet. So, I got thinking .. no inboard. Use just the push dingy. A no inboard motor sailor. At least until boat is back at home port. Anyone do anything like this?
Is there some work around, besides the AT4? Is there a little engine that could be placed where the AT4 is now? Something simple? I love the boat, but I am not living with another Atomic 4 engine, no way. Those aren't engines, they are diseases. I hate the ... things. Had three cruising boats with the AT4, big pain in the ass..

No engine? Any thoughts ? Work around s ?
 
#2 ·
Jasper,

Check out "Wind and Tide: An Introduction to Cruising in Pure Sailing Craft" by Jermone FitzGerald ISBN 0-595-21733-8. That entire book is about sailing without an engine, it is definitely done, I don't know by how many. The author doesn't even talk about using a dinghy with a motor, he talks about having oars and/or a sculling oar to move the boat when it must move without sail power. Check it out, it is worth reading, lots of interesting information. Chapter 1 - "Why Choose to Cruise in an Engineless Sailboat ?"

One especially interesting thing in the book is the argument that sailing without an engine actually makes the boat sail better because it doesn't have all that weight in the back of the boat.
 
#5 ·
I'm with Denise on this one - keep looking.

The idea of a motorless existence may have some superficial attraction, but it sure wouldn't be for me. On the basis that, no matter how careful and well prepared you are, there is always that outside chance of ending up in a situation where the motor is going to save you from death or, even worse, a wrecked boat. The rest of the time, a motor just makes simple things like docking that much easier.

With a bit of patience, you should be able to find something you can fall in love with which also has a nice Yanmar, Volvo or Universal diesel to aid propulsion.

Stuart
 
#6 ·
When you can call the shots, using a tender as a "pusher" can work. When was the last time you called all the shots? I can just imagine you wanting to get into a harbor over a bar in a building 4' sea, trying to jump into the dinghy and tow yourself in before it gets too rough or dark or dangerous to make it that day. We had friends who had to heave to for three days outside a port once, because it was too rough to run the channel -- and they had a 50' schooner with an inboard. Sailing is about reducing the chances of drowning when you can. This is one of those chances.
 
#7 ·
I have to agree with MP. The Atomic is the bomb, and a great motor. To have the skills to sail without a motor is great, but there will come a time when you wishede you had one. Even Lynn & Larry have taken a tow........i2f
 
#9 ·
If the question is just to do the delivery, then do a repower, I would say go for it in most instances. If there is an area that you will definitely need an engine because of something like current, then think twice but if it is a relatively easy sail, do the delivery.

There are a few options for getting limited propulsion. One is using an inflatable as a yawl boat. I think that a lot of people would be shocked that all but 3 of the Maine windjammers have no inboard engines and use yawl boats and they are operating commercially. The other option would be to mount an outboard bracket on the stern and use that for the delivery.

For a permanent fix, neither of those two options are ideal unless you are a purist and don't want an engine. I suspect that you would really miss the inboard quickly if you went engineless. There is also the cost of the repower to consider.
 
#10 ·
I just can't let all of this go by without poking a stick at it. :D

Jerome FitzGerald said:
The degree to which engines make power-assist sailing trivial is disguised. Sailing, in good conditions, takes nearly no ability at all. One can log off a thousand miles under the keel with hardly touching a sheet. One could be asleep, or dead even, and the boat would have continued along its way. While this sort of sailing is pleasant, it is certainly not challenging, nor does it teach or demand much of the sailor aboard. No, sailing, and "seamanship" does not so much involve the thousand mile passage in ideal conditions, although it is involved in producing it - "seamanship" involves much more that hundred feet of contrary current off the point that one cannot make way against. It involves getting under sail in good manner and entering a harbor with proficiency after a passage. People like to think of themselves as 80% sailor and 20% motor-sailor - although such a ratio is dangerously close to a "yachtman's gale." They like to think in terms of hours underway, or miles underway, for this ratio. This disguises or belittles the fact that without the engine, had they encountered that hundred feet of contrary current and not been able to deal with it - even after a thousand miles, they would still have failed to make port. Properly, then, their ratio should be expressed as 100% power-assisted sail, as they would have been helpless without the engine. It is important to note that in any activity that is judged by its completion, a 1% failure means 100% failure... Let us be 100% sailors..."
 
#27 · (Edited)
YA ..I read His book...

For me it boils down to the risk of liability of my actions...there are just too many expensive things to bump into out there anymore....I doubt he has insurance nor any tangible wealth to loose if he did ding the wrong guys boat so his way works for him...I would not touch it with a 10' pole.

To each his own.

He is right about one thing..you do have to be in tune with your boat and your surrounding to go engine less...rather that makes you a better sailor or an eccentric is the argument...as most of us when pushed can put our boats where we want them to go....just not when....niether can he.

It has its place no question..but so does an engine in our busy marina's and harbors now-a-days...with others afloat that will not respect you decision to go engine-less causing them to take evasive actions to avoid you.

You choose your path and your liability risk levels and go from there with your choices...its a personal thing for every one of us....I would rather have the A4 headache myself...

Rip it out and hang on an outboard...:)
 
#11 · (Edited by Moderator)
I've owned three boats with an AT4. The F..'n things are junk, pure junk. If it isn't the fuel, its the carb, of the fuel pump, or the wires, or the distributor or the coil .. .. JUNK!
That, off course, is why the small diesel came along. Anyone who has ever had to live with the AT4, and had their vacation ruined, or ended up paying hundreds of dollars because the junk didn't start, or kept going off .. knows this. The problem? There are some darn nice boats for sale that still have the AT$ in them. The owners are hoping, praying, that some unsuspecting moron will come along, and purchase his boat. The sales pitch is always the same "ya can't kill one, they always run, simple like a lawnmower". Then the poor victim buys the boat. After getting everything ready, he tells the marina to drop her in. It is normally within the hour, that the AT$ begins its assigned role in life; drive the new owner into therapy. It does not start. It starts but then quits. Exhaust gas starts coming out of the exhaust pipe .. the plugs are plugged. The wires are no good. It overheats .. And another like has been altered. The AT$ has struck again. Hundreds of dollars later, after the marina has collected enough to offer its employees a pension and free medical coverage; the thing kinda works. Never really working like it should, just working enough to pretend to work, so that the new boat owner heads for open sea, and the lift bridge.. haaahhaha . the lift bridge .. that is where the AT$ always shuts down. The bridge is up, the current running toward the bridge, and the AT$ shuts down, too late for the anchor, and WAMMOOO.. the mast is knocked down the side of the boat gets all smashed .. and once the boat has floated to the other side of the bridge .. ROAR.. the AT$ comes to life.. hahahahah ... Too bad sucker, the AT$ thinks as it purrs.. hahahahha

Not me.. been there .. done that.. can't wait to take the pile of **** engine and dump it into the ocean.. Watching the bubbles.. as it sinks to the bottom to rust away.. a slow death.. that is what it deserves..
 
#12 ·
I used to have a 28' Pearson Triton with no engine. A4 was pulled and aperture was glassed over. I sailed out of Woods Hole MA, which has ridiculous currents and I never had an incident. So yes, with a little prudent seamanship it can be done. Yes, there will be moments when you'll wish you had one. There will also be plenty of times you'll be glad you don't have to mess with the maintenance and expense of having an engine. I found that I enjoyed sailing sans engine much more than I ever missed one.

You need to be honest with yourself about what you want out of a boat. If you're looking for something to use when it's convenient you will certainly need an engine. However, if you're more interested challenge than convenience and don't mind wait out wind and tide when needed (sometimes days) then maybe engineless sailing is for you.

Jerome Fitzgerald does make for an interesting read, I highly recommend it. And no one has mentioned this before but there is a company that makes an electric motor that drops into the A4's old mount and uses the existing shaft and prop. That might be worth a look if you're not interested in motoring far and have a reliable way to charge the batteries.
 
#13 ·
The Atomic4 certainly has a reputation as a problematic engine. And they have blown up a boat or two -- gasoline in large quantities is a scary thing to have on a boat. Tho thousands of people with gasoline-powered sailboats & stinkpots apparently fail to blow up every year....

Thirty footer: how heavy? If it's under 10,000#, you could forget about the tugboat scheme and just use the dinghy outboard to move the main boat. Gotta hang the dink motor on the aft rail anyhow, right? Hang it on a lowering mount. A 9hp outboard will push a 30' medium cruiser 95% of what you need. (The other 5%, you'll need to find a workaround. Even sailors w/ big inboards need workarounds, for the 5% chance their engine croaks. It will happen.) Still gotta store gasoline, but if your plan is docking/mooring use only, then an outboard with a small gasoline supply would serve. Cheaper than most diesel repowers.

It is very hard to get by without an engine today. But people did so for centuries and some still manage. Denise has a good point: if the A4 is a deal killer, find a boat that doesn't have one. Most boats don't. I'm like that with balsa coring: some people continue to champion it, despite the vast number of sailboats with rotten balsa hulls and decks. I went ahead and bought a SJ21 with balsa deck, and yup, it's bad. The defenders of balsa can have it -- my next boat won't. It's on the Deal Killer list.:)
 
#14 · (Edited)
I am simply not a good enough sailor to go without a motor, but I would like to be. I think if you are good enough to go without a motor then having a motor really is a safety feature. But if you can't get along without a motor, it isn't a safety feature, it is a necessity, and that's like having training wheels, you can easily get into situations where a motor failure could cause you a great deal of harm. I'd rather know how to sail without the motor and then have one. I wouldn't call people who sail without motors purists, they're just sailors who have skills I wish I had. :) If I thought I could get along without a motor, I would, not because I'm a purist, but because I didn't take up sailing to motor all around everywhere!
 
#15 ·
Followup - I think motors are mostly for people who have schedules to keep. I could see where a delivery person would need a motor, or someone who charters boats, because they have schedules to keep and not having wind can really cause them a lot of trouble. And I can even see having a motor for people who can only sail on weekends for the same reason, it would really limit your range if you couldn't count on a motor to get you back to port (and thus back to your life on Monday). But for cruisers who are out there and have all the time in the world ? At best I would think of a motor as a safety feature, otherwise what is the purpose ? Maybe if you just had such an active cruising social life that you had to be at every potluck and rally on time, but that's not really my idea of cruising ...
 
#72 · (Edited)
I think this sums it up quite nicely. If you need to go against a current and the conditions don't allow you to overcome the current, then you'll just have to wait for more favorable conditions.
I've had to sail without a motor. You have to have a good weather eye and you need several hours of cushion on your time in case conditions change and becomes a big PIA to return. Wind shifts, dieing winds, all of that becomes a much bigger issue.
Also, most marinas are set up with boats having power in mind. Coming and going under sail requires some room. I think I could get my 26' boat out but some of the guys using the same size passage way with 50' boats could have trouble. It's also dependent on the wind direction. The prevailing winds would push my boat out, I could sheet in and be gone. Those with stern to the wind wouldn't be able to get out as often.

As far as rowing or sculling, you'd have to have a boat where the design had that in mind. My Drascombe is designed where you can row and scull. It requires 10' oars (this on a low freeboard dinghy-I'd hate to see what my hunter would need) so in tight spaces you have to scull. I need more practice but it's not like trying to move a kayak and that's only an 800lb boat. Even the pros look like they work pretty hard to get it to move a little.

Sailing without a motor is possible, and I think all sailors should be able to dock under sail since motors aren't 100% reliable. I think most could, it just wouldn't be pretty.
But sailing without a motor is not nearly as romantic as it sounds.

As far as weight on the transom, I think designers are taking into account that there will be a motor on the transom.

All that said, I wonder what the big tall ships did when they got to port considering motors weren't even around at that time. Did they have rowable tug boats? :laugher
 
#16 ·
Buying a boat with an Atomic 4 is sort of like deciding to start dating a girl with a meth problem, or a drinking problem. You know you are going to have trouble, so why start? I'd suggest you keep looking for a boat with a nice little diesel. Then, you can practice sailing without turning the engine on, but will have it when you need it. The first couple of times you try to dock under sail you can have the engine running in neutral, just in case!

I agree with WindMagic, engines are more important for people with schedules. Without a schedule, and with plenty of food and booze on board, you can just wait for days for the wind to change to make it into home port, who cares how many days? Assuming you are not drifting onto a lee shore or a Navy torpedo firing range. I personally have an engine and like it. Even when I'm living on the boat with no particular place to go and no particular time to get there by, it's nice to just be able to turn on the engine after the wind dies and make it to the next anchorage so I can have a cocktail and a nice night's sleep.

I say stop loving the boat you are looking at, find one with a diesel!
 
#17 ·
I do not share your antipathy towards the A4 engine but we are all entitled to our own opinions.
Beta Marine makes several models of Kubota diesel engines that are 'drop in' A4 replacements. Beta Marine US Ltd. Distributors for Kubota based marine diesel engines and generators for sailboats, yachts and trawler boats.
I will point out that diesel engines have their own set of issues although they are definitely the preferred propulsion choice for a re-power. Diesels can be quite noisy and need maintenance as well.
At least once I had a guest on board our boat while motoring in low/no winds who commented how quiet the A4 engine was compared to his friends diesel powered sail boat.
Good luck whatever you choose to do.
 
#22 ·
but I am not living with another Atomic 4 engine, no way. Those aren't engines, they are diseases. I hate the ... things. Had three cruising boats with the AT4, big pain in the ass..
This means that you tried to use engines even they are not working. Although it is possible to use a sailing boat without an engine, you should be used to do so.
 
#23 ·
I've had both: with and without.

Lived in Finland in the 50's and had a sweet little 24 footer with no engine. Had her for three years and sailed her just about every day in the summer (ice boating in the winter!) We kept her on a mooring right out back of the house. Sailing in the Baltic was easy with no engine and I don't ever recall wishing I had one.

Fast forward 50 years and I'm sailing in Florida now. It's 6 miles and two fixed bridges up the ICW to Gulf access. There is one very narrow section, about half mile long and 100 yards wide and very shallow on either side. I don't like to use the engine but I always warm it up before leaving the dock (diesel's should be warmed before use) and if the wind's on the nose I'm not too proud to motor up the ICW to open water.

I think the local conditions should fingure in to your decision.

As a semi-retired service manager I can tell you (and I have no experience with the A4) timely preventative maintenance would have forewarned or prevented many major problems we've dealt with.

DB
 
#24 · (Edited)
On long Island Sound you will have a motor OR a really good anchor and not have the need to get home on sunday night :)



I am fixing the freshwater cooled A4 in this CAL 29 BUT a 4HP outboard got it home if it turns into to big a deal i can get the Beta for 6K

And the A4 would sill be fine BUT the PO got lazy changing the water pump :) which happens on diesels all the time and just happened on a two year old Beta in my friends boat this summer
 
#26 ·
You all are ruining my mostly pleasant memories of the Atomic and Utility Fours.

These memories go back a while, when gas was more common than diesel, even in the fiberglass hulls. In the average 30-footer (think Cheoy Lee, Morgan, Islander, Seafarer) they were way too much power (idle, 900 rpm, hull speed, 1400) and ran way cold on raw New England salt water. I did some deliveries then, so the engines were mostly new, and worked okay. They instilled in me the practice of *always* sniffing the bilge before lighting off anything electrical, and closing up everything while refueling.

Now I teach sailing in the OPBC, on sport boats with 4-horse outboard, occasionally we'll have one of those "Motor?? We don't need no stinkin' Motor!!" moments, and will sail down the narrow, shadowy canal and into the slip under sail. But for most close-quarters harbor work, and flat-ass calms (lessons run on a schedule), and just-in-case, I'm happy to have the semi-reliable outboard on hand.

I admire those who are true "purists". But I've also given them a tow in a few times too.
 
#29 ·
Well

I have boated and kept boats pretty much everwere on Long Island

Way back in 1981 me and my race dingy had a water front apartment on the patchogue river and lived motor free

When i went to a 18' boat to please the wife in the same place NO motor sort of did not work out that well as the patchogue river is kind of narrow :)

When we moved the 18' boat to South Jamesport you sort of took and ass kicking trying to get home some days without a motor.

Which was a good thing becasue i bought my first J24 and did not get anymore ass kickings

Then we moved the J24 out to greenport/orient point and while the motor was rarely needed there were times you would have had to have packed a lot of food and water as sometimes the wind did not blow for 3 days :(

And now i am in Northport even when the winds blowing you better be ready to sail for 3 hours just to make Long Issland sound when the currents is in full flood and the wind is west :)
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top