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Full or fin keel?

191K views 846 replies 107 participants last post by  mstern 
#1 ·
Can somebody pro/con a full vs. fin keel for a newbie (will learn to sail on said boat) and taking it thru the Caribbean? All I can seem to come up with so far is fin keel is better to the wind, and a full keel will protect your rudder.
 
#255 · (Edited)
While cleaning my office today to avoid starting taxes, I happened to read the back cover of an old "Practical Sailor" magazine, Sept. 2011.

Because I've been thinking about fin keels and bulbs, which sound very good, I was immediately struck by the following quote:

". . . I'm considering going to all-chain (rode). Also, because my boat is pretty light with a fin keel and bulb, the rode wraps around the bulb when the current is stronger than the wind, requiring diving to free the mess. This is manageable in July, not so fun in October."
 
#257 ·
This is a good example of why a more "high tech" design is not necessarily the best tool for the job so to speak.

What about how the boat is built? There is a lot to be said for the old overbuilt boats that will take all kinds of abuse.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against technology and scientific research resulting in a better boat, its just that in a lot of these cases what looks good on paper may not be the best in reality.

In Paulos video example of the open 70 being knocked down by the large wave and returning to the upright position rapidly, the trade off is a very fragile boat. In the first leg 3 of the 6? boats retired before the half way point and 2 of those never made it into the Atlantic....
 
#256 ·
Either way to look at a comparison, but it wt vs wt, or length vs length, You will probably get a figure/act to work in you favor. I'm sure I could take my boat compare it to a full keel of the same 28' deck length, it would weight in some 3-4K lbs more, the comfort ratio would be higher due to the higher wt. Just as generally speaking, a longer boat of the same disp is usually better at a comfort ratio than a smaller boat.

The issue skygazer is talking about, occurs on bulb keels, but not other non bulb keels, be them fins, full, centerboard or bilge keeps. The issue is the bulb! On the otherhand, I doubt a bulb with all chain rode is going to have the same issues as a line rode anchor system either. Again, comparing two things that are not the same, in which, either way you look at it, you can get or not get the answer you are looking for.

Anchor sizing seems to be another hot topic, as is mast head vs fractional rigs, altho not as hot as the keel or anchor. Sail cloths seems to also kick up a small storm to a degree too.

At the end of the day, does the boat suit your needs, and how you sail. With options I have today, I would not want a full keel in the salish sea where I sail, as I would never get to sail many days of the year, unless it had a BIG rig on it. When it is under 5-7 knots, one needs a mid 20-1 SA/disp to make the thing move! Not to mention, the thing turns like an aircraft carrier, so for the how I sail, a fin is better than full. If I went offshore, I would still take a fin, altho maybe a bit longer, still a deeper one. Saw a Hunter with a shoal draft the other day in some uper teen winds. he was going nowhere fast, was not pointing as high as the T-bird or US30 that went flying by him! Along with him going sideways more! Then again, race crews are usually better setup than a cruiser. Even after the sails came down, he was not moving with the motor agains everything too fast.

Marty
 
#260 · (Edited)
The anchor rode issue also occurs on fin keels that have a trailing edge that rakes back making it possible for the keel to hook on it.

Yes a full keel with heavy displacement will by it's nature have a better "comfort ratio" , but the whole point of this thread is to discuss the comparative points of fin and full keel. As far as I am concerned for an ocean cruiser the better motion and tracking abilities are extremely important attributes at sea.
 
#264 ·
That is not very different than Phillipe Poupon boat. That is what the French call a centerboarder and it is their most common choice in what regards a voyage boat (aluminum centerboarder). However Poupon boat centerboard is a lot more deep and I believe will give the boat a better tracking upwind.

http://www.fleuraustrale.fr/plan-du-bateau.html
Fleur Australe - Fleur Australe FR





That is also the type of boat Jimmy Cornnel recommends as a voyage boat (and that's some recommendation).

I have already referred the very good dynamic stability of those boats that in bad weather pull the centerboard up (for not tripping on the keel) and can dissipate the energy of a breaking wave moving sideways or rotating on a vertical axis.

Regards

Paulo
 
#269 · (Edited)
Less extreme than what?:)

The Cigale is an aluminum bluewater long distance voyage boat clearly designed taking advantage from the knowledge learned with Open solo boats. It was a precursor and its first "edition" is more than 25 years old. The fact that the boat is still very modern shows the huge success of that design regarding its use and sailor's satisfaction with the performance as a voyage boat and the sailors that have them are not properly marina sailors:D

The boat is designed to be forgiving, easily sailed solo, to be fast to be strong, to have a large autonomy and to provide a great interior for living aboard. Regarding the aluminium centerboarders it has the disadvantage of having a considerable draft and not be able to go to any place neither to look for shelter more nearer the shore but has the advantage of speed and sailing pleasure.

In the end it is like voyaging on a Porsche cayenne or in a Panamera. Take your pick;)

There is a member that has one and he could not be more satisfied. Of course, I would prefer the Panamera but I can understand that for most the Cayenne is a more adapted solution.



 
#272 · (Edited)
Regarding the cruising Pogo it is a much bigger boat. We will see when they finish the first Pogo 50. That one has a much better interior, doors and all:D

Regarding boat sailing characteristics they are not much different, they have the same kind of hull even if the Pogo has a bit more beam, but the weight is not much different considering that the Cigale 16 is 2 ft bigger.

The Pogo 50 weights 8900kg and the cigale 16 10750kg. The Pogo has more sail but not much: 150m2 for 141m2.

All in all you are right, the Pogo is faster and more close to an open boat...but not much;)

The Cigale has the advantage of the stronger aluminium hull but the Pogo has an huge advantage in what regards the cruising grounds and capacity to get shelter near the coast. Its draft with the keel up is only 1.5m. With the keel down the tracking upwind should be great with a 3.5m draft keel.

Saying that I would also prefer the Cigale, but that is just because I am getting old:D But hei, give me a Pogo 50 and I will be happy too;).

Regards

Paulo
 
#275 ·
Makes me think that those "dreaded bendytoys" can't be so bad at all...
Of curse I would not want to loose the keel. (If it was there to begin with)
But it is kind of reassuring to know, that others have done it without sinking their boat...
Maybe it was just luck, or some kind of production error..
But.....
Seriously...
Boats, that can handle this kind of abuse...
Should be able to cross some big oceans...



For those of you that are a little allergic to German, press mute...
(No.. I am not from Germany..) ;)
But..
I am one of those willing to loose some comfort, to gain some speed..
 
#276 ·
Yesterday I finally got around to reading this post (guess I was wondering how you could talk about this subject for more than 200 posts, now I know :))

Anyway here is my two cents worth. For five years I owned a full length keel Roberts 45 Classic. Below is the design.

Photobucket

Two year ago I sold he Roberts and brought a fin keeled UFO 34, as per below:

Photobucket

I have compared the two yachts extensively in a wide range of wind and sea conditions, including tacking angles, upwind / downwind / reaching performance, effect of waves, etc using the same navigation software / GPS setup.

As would be expected, the UFO 34 certainly had better upwind performance. However the truth is the UFO 34 has better sailing performance in ALL conditions, be it upwind, downwind reaching whatever. I've yet to find conditions where the UFO 34 does not perform better than the Roberts 45.

Some people will probably suggest that this is an unfair comparison comparing a heavy cruising ketch with a medium cruiser / racer. However you also need to remember that the Roberts 45 is more than 10ft longer than the UFO 34 and the larger yacht still loses in a sailing competition. (note 45ft excluded the bowsprit and davits, overall length was closer to 55ft.)

I would also agree with others that point out that the keel type is one of a number of factors that go into sailing ability. However most full length keel boats also tend to be heavy boats with similar charateristics to the Roberts.

Like others have said, there is a reason why Hallberg Rassy, Malo and other builders have progressed from full length to fin keels, as the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Ilenart
 
#280 ·
Okay, got it!

The actual speed numbers would be interesting. BUT, probably also like my comparison to some smaller and about the same disp earlier, it may not be as drastic, but still better due to typically a lot more SA/disp ratio on typical fin keels vs full keels.

Marty
 
#282 ·
Thats a whopping 1 knot faster than my 28' on deck boat usually does. I can motor at 6 using a smallish amount of fuel, hull speed is 6.6 knots. I've had it up to 11 surfing down a wave in some upper 30 to low 40 knot winds with a main and 110 up. That was a hoot. Downwind it is not uncommon in low to mid 20 knot winds to be in the 7-9 knot range.

A local with a Jeanneau SO49iP has had his doing 15-20 with his then 105lb 14 yr old daughter at the helm using an AS up with 20' seas heading to Oz. it was simple driving from what I under stand.

Not sure frankly one really needs a full keel per say, as making sure that ones boat is strong enough scantly wise to handle what one will put it thru. Where as right not, IMHO the VOR 70 bunch, have probably pushed the lightly built scantlings if you will for the rig/hulls etc a bit much, hence why so many have broken things. Where as if you take the same design, build it a bit heavier and stronger, it will not go as fast, but would take some of the beating at a slightly less speed better. now whether or not a couple cruising would want to be going 20+ knots in ALL conditions.......that leaves something to be disCUSSed, as most would probably be happy if they could easily sail in the mid to upper teen range with a 70 boat by them selves. Heck, I'd be happy with a 40-50' boat doing that here and there!

marty
 
#287 ·
Well men if you wish to know what a newbee is getting from this thread is that Full or Fin is a matter of choice. The Full might seem to be a little more steady or need less trim under way for a longer time period. It has less draft. The Fin may go better in very light wind and turn just a little faster. Both are as safe and capable as the crew on board. 30 pages or so and this is what I take so far. I do not know what happend to the newbee that started this thread but I am still here sail on ! Thanks for the insight! regards LOU
 
#288 · (Edited)
If you join to that between a well designed fin keel and a well deign full keel, the fin keel will point better, it will go much faster downwind (it can go over hull sped quite easily), it will be considerably less expensive (new, of course) and that the full keel will be less prone to suffer damage in a hard grounding, you have got it;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#291 ·
I am a bit shy to make my first post, though reading this and many other threads for some time, I would like your consideration. Now I am planning a voyage from Hawaii to Japan (my home), and I will purchase a boat in Hon. or NA West Coast, of 34' or under, due to budget.

My question concerns heavy weather. It has been mentioned that fin keels do not heave to. Comments? Also mentioned was that this could be ameliorated with a drogue (like Jordan series)? For the solo or short-handed skipper, in a smaller boat, would the ability of the boat to heave to be a) crucial, b) important, or c) solved by other means?

Of course I would love some recommendations of a used boat suitable to the task for < $25K prior to outfitting. There are not so many choices, right? But would you advise me to ignore any/all fin keels in whatever combination? There is a real appeal in making a speedy passage -- in fact I am wanting to deliver the boat (to myself) in Japan, where it will enjoy its future life, with coastal and offshore work. I am not a circumnavigator, or live-aboard person.

As for sailing experience, offshore experience is limited. I crew on a 37' Jeanneau Sun Odyssey sailing in the Japan Sea, in Southern Kyushu. I do like the idea of weathering battened down in my cabin, reading a book, if it comes to that (or just hanging on).

Last, just to mention, some sort of fin+skeg rudder combination appeals to me (particularly for later coastal use), but I would not want to be foolish. Would you? If you can't heave to with a smaller fin keeled boat, can it be recommended for my (or trans-Pacific offshore) use? :confused:
 
#312 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am a bit shy to make my first post, though reading this and many other threads for some time, I would like your consideration. Now I am planning a voyage from Hawaii to Japan (my home), and I will purchase a boat in Hon. or NA West Coast, of 34' or under, due to budget.
I would try to stay away from buying a boat in Hawaii if you can (unless you find the perfect boat in perfect condition). Not too many good deals in Hawaii (not many boats for sale) and if your boat needs work, it is very expensive. Even doing the work yourself you are looking at $70 per day dry storage while you work (there are not any options as no marinas have a place to put your boat while you work on it).
 
#292 ·
Hi DA, welcome to Sailnet. As your post is fairly general in future you may wish to start your own thread.

On heaving to, fin keels can be more difficult to setup compared to long keel yachts, however it really depends on the vessel. Some people suggest using a sea anchor to assist yachts that do not heave too easily. The Book "Storm Tactics" by Lin & Larry Pardey gives a good description of the options and process. I would suggest this issue is somewhere beween "important" / to "solve by other means", ie a Jorden series drogue is an alternative.

However based on your post, I would suggest that obtaining further experience is probably more desirable, ie crew on someone else's yacht first. This is a lot cheaper and there are always yachts looking for crew. I'm about to fly to the South Pacific to spend six weeks crewing on a yacht. During these trips you can work out for yourself what sort of yacht appeals to you.

Good luck, Ilenart
 
#293 ·
Thank you Ilenart, for the welcome. I am a bit mystified by your seeming "shrug"? My post is quite on the topic under purview, which has to do with the merits of fin vs. full keels, or am I mistaken. That you have responded in part "somewhere between "important"..." would seem to confirm this. Obviously I do not have your experience. I asked a pertinent question because I am seeking expertise. By the way I am also a reader. I have read in the last month various books concerning the 1979 Fastnet tragedy, and have Coles' "Heavy Weather Sailing" by the crook of my arm. I presented a real-world situation, which I am facing. I doubt I will be able to acquire further experience than I am already involved in. But do please move on, everyone, if my newbie post is passé.
 
#294 ·
Alice,

Depending upon cost, the SO37 that you are currently sailing on HAS crossed many an ocean. In fact one year it had more of these models doing the ARC than any other model. Granted the atlantic can at times be less of an issue than the pacific.....but that is another issue all together.

There is usually 3-6+ for sale on the west coast of the NA from Scal up into the BC area at any one times. Other models that might work from Jeanneau are the SO 34.2, 36.2, 37.x and larger models that are with int he last 15 yrs or so. The sunshine 36/38 has also crossed many an ocean too.

Reality is, many of the more recent boats can and do cross oceans. A fellow on here took an Ericson from the LA or SF area to Australia. I know of a person with a J37c that went from Seattle where I am down to Mexico a couple of yr ago, still down that way.

At the end of the day, get as much sailing experience on the so37 you are sailing in as many wind conditions as you can, including the day you really do not want to go out, ie too windy in you mind, as you may get caught out in the ocean in worst conditions.

Good luck on choice
Marty
 
#296 · (Edited)
Does everyone agree with Lou452 (post 287) : “Well men if you wish to know what a newbee is getting from this thread is that Full or Fin is a matter of choice. The Full might seem to be a little more steady or need less trim under way for a longer time period. It has less draft. The Fin may go better in very light wind and turn just a little faster. Both are as safe and capable as the crew on board.”

“Both are as safe and capable …” Agreed or not? I am wondering the same thing as the OP, regarding fin vs. full keel. I am concerned in particular with potential heavy weather trans-oceanic (Pacific) sailing, regarding keels.

It was suggested earlier that boats of equal displacement should be compared, rather than boats of equal length; it was also suggested that “the biggest difference between fin and full keel boats is that fin keel boats are much lighter, that is the point...to compare boats of the same size and different weights is a more accurate comparison… a typical weight fin of the same size as a typical weight full is about half.” (post 254)

Pragmatically, I would compare by cost (which would include adapting/outfitting an older boat for the stated purpose). What type of boat should I spend my money on, commit to, for my intended purpose (Marty, I’m not focused on a Jeaneau - thanks for your information though). At a given price range there are various keel options available. My length limit of roughly 34’ feet relates to cost/performance, among other factors, including potential physical requirements. I don’t suppose there is a clear answer, but I do wonder about heavy weather sailing in “smaller” boats (representing the largest number of solo/hhort-handed circumnavigators, it seems).
 
#297 ·
Assuming good build quality and equipment I agree that "Both are as safe and capable as the crew on board."

In light airs the fin should be able to sail well with light sails - the heavy full keel boat not so much. The heavier the boat the larger the sails and the heavier the gear on deck as well, as the loads are higher.

There are a great many fin keel boats out there crossing oceans- probably a lot more than full keel boats - at this time. I am not advocating an extreme fin - but a moderate one.

My comment about comparing equal weight boats makes sense if you are building new mostly as boats price by the pound more or less. I would much sooner have a 40' fin keel boat than a 30' full keel boat that weighs the same.
 
#298 ·
As it was said by Marty and Ilenart is not so much about the boat but about your skills. As It was said by everybody first you should get a lot of experience before doing a voyage like that. While you get that experience you will sail different kinds of boats, their cost and can have an idea of what kind of boat you prefer or can afford.

I also don’t understand why you talk about a 34ft related to budget. First you have to have a budget and then find the boat that fits your budget.

As others have said you should open a thread about your specific problem, related with your budget, best places to learn sailing and so on.

As it was said repeatedly on this thread, seaworthiness has not to do with a boat having a fin or full keel, however if your budget is really small you can be restricted to buying a really old boat and the chances are that one would be a full keel.

Open a thread about that, lots of guys have experience about old inexpensive boats that with some work and money can be made seaworthy again.

Regards

Paulo
 
#299 ·
The main purpose of the fin keeled cruising boat, sometimes called a "racer/cruiser" is to emulate the high performance of the racing boats. As with everything in boats there a comprimises...as you approach the performance of a racer, more work is nessesary to handle the boat and the more uncomfortable the boat becomes in nasty weather. The "classic bluewater boat" is a heavy displacement full keel, they are easy to handle, comfortable in nasty weather, though are not super high performance. As with the fin as you approach the extremes of the design both the advantages as well as the disadvantages increase. In the case of my boat it is not a big fat ocean cruiser that can't get out of it's own way in a calm, she is fast in all winds and easy motion in nasty....but likes to heel alot and has a narrow beam with a tight cabin...I am happy with her.
 
#310 · (Edited)
The main purpose of the fin keeled cruising boat, sometimes called a "racer/cruiser" is to emulate the high performance of the racing boats.......
You can only be jocking. Halberg Hassy, Oyster, Malo, Najad, Hinckley, Morris, all well know cruiser-racers trying to emulate racing boats!!!!:D

My God, that is really too much Wolf:rolleyes:;)

As I have said, most of them were once full keelers, or medium keelers. They are now fin kellers to sail better not to race or to emulate racers. They are all bluewater cruisers and that's what they were built to do: Bluewater cruising, not to race or even cruiser-racing.

I think everybody can agree with that, I mean cruiser-racers?!!!!:rolleyes:

... The "classic bluewater boat" is a heavy displacement full keel....
Finally something I can agree with you. Yes in what regards Classic boats you are right.

However modern bluewater boats are fin keelers and that is a fact. Why the hell there is not a market for modern full keel bluewater boats if they are better than fin keel boats for bluewater work? Do you really believe that all the boat designers all the sailors that buy those bluewater boats are wrong and you are right? All of them?

Nothing wrong in liking to sail or own classic or traditional boats (I love both) but from there to pretending that the advantages of a better designed sailboat ended 75 years ago goes a big distance;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#300 ·
wolfenzee

I am glad you have found a boat that you are happy with.

I think your boat is a classic ocean cruiser of 75 years ago, narrow, and not spacious.

I think boats like the one shown below are considered by many to be a more fitting "classic" ocean cruiser that has the comfort attributes of the past, more room, more speed, and easy handling. Not extreme in design and not mired in the past.
 

Attachments

#301 ·
My boat was designed to be a no frills/utilitarian single handed ocean cruiser. The rig was tweeked, winches added and I have totally redesigned the interior to be more efficient and pleasing to the eye. The secound owner (who has skippered 100'+ schooners)
had rhis boat for 15 years and called her "A good sea boat".
 
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