Can somebody pro/con a full vs. fin keel for a newbie (will learn to sail on said boat) and taking it thru the Caribbean? All I can seem to come up with so far is fin keel is better to the wind, and a full keel will protect your rudder.
Regarding this:Robert Perry's, "Yacht Design According to Perry" (2008, pp. 118-122) has a short chapter, titled "Full Keels" which complements the descriptions above. .. a position which supports an evolution away from the full/modified-full keel toward at minimum, a hybrid keel, properly and creatively designed and engineered (a provocative topic in itself).
Here are some extracts:
"…given the amount of volume in a full keel, all else being equal, a full-keel boat will be less stable through the normal sailing range, 0 to 30 degrees of heel, than a fin-keel boat. Picture the midsections of a full-keel boat and a fin-keel boat with both boats heeled 20 degrees. The immersed portion of the fin-keel midsection is almost entirely to leeward of the centerline, where it contributes to righting moment via buoyancy. The windward portion of the hull is mostly out of the water, where it, too, contributes to righting moment via gravity. The immersed portion of the full-keel midsection, on the other hand, is still perhaps 40 percent to windward of the centerline, where it contributes to further heeling… technically expressed, the volume of a full keel reduces the righting arm (the distance from the VCG to the transverse center of buoyancy). Thus, not surprisingly, I get a lot of calls from owners of older full-keel boats complaining about lack of stability."
"The stiffest boats are those with deep, high-aspect fin keels with some type of bulb at the tip. It's all about getting the VCG low… On the other hand, it's important to remember that bulbs in themselves are not hydrodynamically desirable. A clean fin has far less drag… A relatively thin, high-aspect fin will have less frontal area than most other keels, which can reduce drag and add up to a downward wind speed advantage, but the thinness comes at a price. [It] poses a structural challenge due to the short chord where the fin attaches to the hull. A short fin makes it difficult or impossible to spread the fin loads over a big section of the hull. You wouldn't want to bounce a fin like that off a reef for a day or two, nor would you want to sit the boat's entire weight upon it when you haul out. Short-chord, high-aspect fins are unsuitable for most cruising boats, which hold durability as a primary desirable feature."
"Remember, more stability means a boat that will stand up to its sail better and present a more efficient keel shape to the water. People like stiff boats… It's often argued that a full- or modified full-keel boat has better directional stability, which is often referred to as "tracking ability." My experience is just the opposite. I have found that the further I can separate the keel form the rudder, the better a boat tracks… I'm a believer in the 'feathers on the end of an arrow' theory. In other words, keep the rudder as far aft as possible."
The one that know me know that I am a firm believer that each sailor should have a boat adapted to his sailing tastes and not otherwise. The big choice in the boat market, specially on the European one is a clear sign that choice exists. Boatbuilders that make boats that no one wants go bankrupt and out of the market. It is as simple as that.....
I think the unfortunate trend in modern yacht design is that the buying public seems easily beguiled into thinking that the design principles of a Volvo 60, manned by a bunch of professional athletes standing watch on watch and probably terrified nearly every second (but loving it, I am sure) is somehow the right thing for the average guy and his mate, or vice versa, who want to go to sea.
I kind of don't think it is and will offer two observations to support this:
1. Most of these wide beamed, high aspect ratio fin-keeled (with spade rudders) and similar tall thin rigs spend their time as patios.
2. When you do see them sailing they usually do so with an enormous amount of twist in the sail rig -- Harken even advertises windward sheeting mains'l travellers to promote this -- so as to lessen the "twitchiness" of the high aspect rig referred to earlier. With a twisted foil, there is always at least some part of it working properly -- but never all of it. If they could figure out how to make twisty fin keels and twisty spade rudders we'd see fewer "crash jibes," "death broaches" and all the other terms recently invented to describe the behaviour of these things.
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To make things clear that boat option is not the one I favor to myself, not because it is too radical in what regards sailing but because it has an interior "too clean" for me and because on the type of sailing I do I make a lot of upwind sailing that is not the strong point of that boat. But if I was circumnavigating, following the trade winds you can bet that it would be that the type of boat I would chose…and I am not implying that would be the right choice for you or any other that prefer slower heavy boats with a different sea motion.…..
Last week we sailed the boat over to Nieuwpoort, which was a cold but nice and very valuable experience. I will be happy to discuss this in more detail later, but the bottom line is: the boat dislikes pointing or sailing dead downwind, keeping up the speed is the issue and then the VMG is always very correct. It is quite a different way of sailing compared to more traditional designs.
I mentioned before the statement of an experienced class 40 sailor: it's just like a big 470 dinghy. I've been sailing a 470 for almost 30 years and could not agree more. "Sail the boat under the mast" and first try to build up the apparent wind. Then you get exhilarating sailing everywhere between a close and a broad reach.….
The initial (form) stability is as spectacular as the 4m50 wide (and honestly quite disgraceful) beam. Even with myself and my two basketball centre players of sons on the same side, the boat hardly moves.
Under sail, more than 20° of heel only slows the boat down. But before you get there, you have already enjoyed the enormous power of both the hull (form stability) and the 3m deep, leaded keel (weight stability).
Between l'Aber Wrach (North Brittany) and Cowes we kept all the sail (full main + solent) up in 25 knts on a broad reach. With nice, long, 3m high waves and gusts up to 35 knts the average speed was around 14 knts with some wonderful long and thrilling surfs up to 21 knts, without ever feeling out of control.
So our first experience after 450 NM with the 12.50 is: WYSIWYG.
A big 470 with visually basic, but functional and in fact quite comfortable accommodation for our crew of 6.
Eric
You seem to forget some relevant facts and it is not hard to understand why..
"... but the bottom line is: the boat dislikes pointing or sailing dead downind."
"... it's just like a big 470 dinghy."
"... on a broad reach... without ever feeling out of control." Well, I should hope so, given that on this point of sail most would be taking a nap.
This all just confirms my points that these things are "big dinghys."
This has been a civil discussion and calling me silly doesn't add any value to your point of view and I prefer not comment on about what it says about you.PCP
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You are just being silly with comments like that. What on earth does "sail better" mean?
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I owned a Beneteau 393, a very conventional fin and spade. with a bit of careful tweaking with the sail balance, she would sail upwind without a hand on the wheel.I have sailed on deep fin boats. They are faster, they point higher, but they are not for me. They don't "sail better" for me. They never will. All that helm correction and tweaking? You can keep it.
I'm trying to imagine a catalina 30 out here off the Oregon coast compared to my Westsail 32 and coming to the conclusion that what you say is completely wrong. The person in the Catalina 30 is going to have to have far better sailing skills than the person in the heavier older design. That light fin keel boat will require much more attention to keep out of trouble.Today anyone in a reasonable well fitted out "plastic fantastic" can cross oceans and circumnavigate. why, primarily because the basic technology in the boat is stronger, more resilient, and efficient. Arguably the sailing skill of the owner is less, but the boat makes up for it.
Responds to helm is the same as being sensitive or at least it was what I wanted to say.PCP :
This has been a civil discussion and calling me silly doesn't add any value to your point of view and I prefer not comment on about what it says about you.
Sailing better is sailing better, faster in all points of sail, better tracking ability better pointing ability, same sea motion (for the same type of hull and weight), more light on the helm, more responsive, turning better under engine on forward motion and incomparably better on backward motion, in one word, sailing better.
Then that's fine for you. Maybe in your world, downwind in a big Atlantic swell, day-after-day of it, your boat design is better for you. And you like deep fin keels and you like the idea of them being held on by bolts, and you like the cantilever stresses imposed on a spade rudder. And you clearly like helm sensitivity.
I don't.
No, give me a long keel, give me a keel-hung rudder, and cast the keel into the GRP so I don't have to worry about those keel bolt things. And give me a ship that is slower to respond to sea and helm.
That's for me.
Yea, because it "sails better" for me.
If anyone tells me otherwise, then they are being silly.
Sailing better is not a fantasy but an objective thing. As I have said sea motion and boat behavior depends mostly on hull shape and displacement. Has the designer and builders of the Gozzard had said after trying the boat on both configurations (Full keel and modified fin keel):PCP
I love traditional boats and old boats and it make all sense to preserve those boats and even in some cases to build replicas, but not because they sail better. Just because they represent the best it was made at that time. They all will certainly offer great sailing....but obviously not an overall better sailing than a modern designed boat, otherwise modern boats would only be improvements of those designs and not completely different boats.
You are just being silly with comments like that. What on earth does "sail better" mean?...
As for "Sail better"?... for you, yes, but not for me, no matter when it was built.
An heavy helm does only mean that the boat is not well balanced. Some full keel boats have an heavy helm even with a rightly balanced sails.PCP :
Why on earth would "lighter on the helm" attract anyone on a long haul?
I remember 27 days with a long keel and heavy helm.
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never mentioned a broad reach.That Benetau must be quite a ship to hold a broad reach hands-off.