SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

hf radio modified marine or modified ham

37K views 67 replies 28 participants last post by  hellosailor 
#1 ·
I'm contemplating putting a hf radio on my catamaran. Choices seem to be between a marine SSB or a HF Ham radio. Ham radios can be modified for use on marine frequencies. Marine rigs can be modified for use on Ham frequencies. My problem is which way to go. Two major questions are (1) Can these radios be used to legally transmit outside their FCC approved frequencies (and if not legal, do many people do it anyway); and (2) how practical is it to use a modified marine radio on ham freqs (convenience, etc) and how practical is it to use a modified ham radio on marine freqs? In terms of cost, it seems less expensive to modify a ham radio such as an Icom 418 than to modify a marine radio. Any guidance would be appreciated. TIA, Dan
 
#3 ·
Since this IS my field and I AM an expert on this.. :) I'll state that a "modified ham radio rig" is legal to use in ham bands only.

It it not legal for amateurs or anyone else to modify radios to operate in "out of band" operation.

That does not mean you can't purchase radios that can operate in all bands though. You can.

I have a radio that CAN operate in both marine bands (actually it can pretty much transmit in any band) but it is ONLY operated in Amateur bands as that is what it was designed to do.

There's a little thing called "FCC Type acceptance".

Amateur radio gear is NOT(necessarily) FCC type accepted. Nearly all other equipment is. (Again, some ham radios are type accepted).

What this means is they meet certain specifications to prevent interference to other radio services.

If I'm not mistaken, you can find a few radios from several large manufacturers that will cover, legally, both the amateur bands and the marine frequencies you require.

Personally, I'd do a bit more research on the radio gear.

Lastly - you need to decide what you need to use the radio for. If you are a ham, you need to have an Amateur Radio Operators license. If you are going to use Marine, you need a restricted operators license (no test, just a fee) and a ships radio station license (fee, no test). Ham radio requires you have at minimum a General class license (not a HARD test, but not EASY either).

(For the record I hold a RR license, and I hold an Amateur Extra license. I've held a First Class Radio Telephone Operators license in the past - no longer issued these days, and Second Class and a Third Class. Also for the record I've been involved in using, setting up and training radio systems for nearly forty years now.)
 
#4 ·
Sorry one other thing I need to add here to make this easy....

If you have a radio that is capable of being used on Marine frequencies, it CAN be legally modified to work in HAM bands (if you're a ham radio operator).

Any radio can be legally modified by amateurs to work in the ham bands. But you can't modify a "ham only" to work in OTHER bands (legally).

Make sense?
 
#5 ·
Did a little quick research.

There is a radio that can do both things for you - it's a little expensive, at nearly $2000 bucks. The Icom M802, but it supposedly has other things you might want including some built in stuff for email. I didn't get a chance to read much on that radio, but you might want to look in that direction.

Rick
 
#6 ·
Kudos to Rick. When I read the initial post in this thread my first thought was "Oh no, not again." Rick said about everything I would and very well.

A couple thoughts:

Type acceptance is not universal; it is application specific. So a manufacturer might apply for type-acceptance on a radio for use on amateur frequencies. That doesn't make it acceptable for use in other services.

The Icom M802 is a good radio. It's a great marine SSB and a good ham radio. I'm thrilled with mine. The built-in e-mail stuff isn't particularly useful for most installations - if you want to do e-mail the near-universal setup is an SCS Pactor modem and Airmail on a laptop or other computer. With the 802/SCS/Airmail combination all frequency and mode control is by the laptop and the e-mail functionality built into the radio isn't necessary.

Finally, the type-acceptance requirement and other legal limitations are not Not NOT bureaucracy run amok. There are very good reasons to require radios used in a life-critical service like marine SSB to meet particular standards for frequency stability and signal purity that a fundamentally experimental service like ham radio simply need not meet.

sail fast, dave KO4MI
S/V Auspicious
 
#7 ·
Cool. Thanks for the verification. I did all that "off the top of me head"!

LOL

Yeah, I didn't go into extreme detail on the type acceptance. That's a US and Canadian thing. I'm not sure honestly how other countries do things.

For everyone else, radios built in other countries are indeed, 'type accepted' in the US by FCC standards. And as Dave pointed out, they are done this way to PREVENT interference to services outside the bands they are designed to operate in.

This comes down specifically to prevent harmful interference especially to life-saving services, but also to prevent most kinds of interference.

The problem with modifying a ham radio into another service comes from the fact that amateur gear - when commercially produced may well be within all standards, FOR the Ham Bands, but when you push the envelop, so to speak, you can cause spurious emissions. Those emissions can cause signals in other bands to be over-ridden by your radio signal which could place others in jeopardy.

But for Dan... there's inexpensive, there's cheap and there's frugal.

While it might seem "cheaper" to modify a ham rig (and then use it) on marine frequencies - it won't be IF you get caught doing so. If I remember rightly the rules state something about the fines being up to $10,000 dollars and jail time.

If you're a foreign operator (Say from Canada) you have to have a reciprocal operating license (not difficult to obtain, if you're licensed already in your country).

I honestly don't know if the Coast Guard would check your license or not, but they don't actually have authority to fine you for not having one. The ONLY authority over US frequency allocation and usage is the Federal Communications Commission.

I know that the RCMP will confiscate radios that are "illegally modified" themselves, usually ham gear modified to hold commercial stuff. I don't know if they grab US radios for this, as I have several radios that are capable of holding many frequencies, and my main HT is capable of pretty much transmitting anywhere, not LEGALLY, but it can.

(That radio can, if necessary, broadcast on marine frequencies, but would not be used to do so except in emergencies. In the US ANY ONE and ANY RADIO system can be used to assist in emergencies where safety and preservation of life is a factor)
 
#8 ·
If I remember rightly the rules state something about the fines being up to $10,000 dollars and jail time.
Depends.

Caveat: It's been a long time since I let my Advanced Class license lapse, much less since I studied for it. It's been a long time since I studied for, and passed, my First Class Commercial License class and obtained my Second Class Commercial License, but, IIRC and things haven't changed:

A violation of your FCC license is US$500/day, per violation. N.B.: IIRC: Because of the way the Rules are written and because of your licensing terms, Violating the rules for any class of service is always a violation of any licenses you hold. Violating the terms of any FCC license(s) you hold reflects on all licenses you hold. All can be suspended or (perhaps permanently) revoked.

No license(s)? Well (and this always comes as a surprise to people): Then they can't fine you under the Rules. Pretty neat, eh? Nope, instead they get you for violating the Communications Act. (Well, it's the Telecommunications Act, now, but I'm an old timer.) That one is, or used to be, a penalty of up to US$10,000 and (or?) a year as a guest of Uncle Sam. It's probably a Pretty Safe Bet that getting nailed for violating this Act will preclude your ever obtaining an FCC license for any service.

Jim
 
#17 ·
People get "busted" all the time transmitting illegally on Amateur Radio Bands.

For the record, the FCC won't track you down unless you're causing harmful interference, but the Amateur Bands are the MOST policed bands of ALL.

Why? Because amateur jealously guard their frequencies against intruders (and rightly so) since over the years the bands have shrank over time, having many of them pulled out from under the hams.

In fact, I've participated in several "hunt down the offender" issues over the years and we can, within minutes usually locate someone transmitting on uhf/vhf bands. Takes a bit longer on HF, but it can be done.

I know a guy in town here that has a doppler ranging system and can find you in less than five minutes and pin point your EXACT latitude and longitude in that time.

As for the "getting you under the telecommunications act" - for the 10K that's probably accurate. However, the FCC will still fine you based on your actions if you cause HARMFUL interference (unless you're in an emergency).

About "hearing the difference", I'm not sure about that. I listen to both amateur and marine broadcasts all the time and I can't tell you what kind of rig someone is using without them mentioning it. Certain microphones can change voice and bandwidth characteristics, as can other types of equipment added to the radio.
 
#10 ·
Dan, your best bet to stay 100% legal is to buy a radio like an older Icom 710 or a new 802(?) which is manufactured and approved for both services. It will have drawbacks, but so will anything else.

As long as your radio is legal for use in your home country, it will be legal around the world by reciprocal treaties via the ITU. (Of course, if you are visiting "Red" China you'll need a permit, because bringing in an unlicensed ham radio is quite literally an espionage conviction there.)

Marine HF radios are "channelized" so you can dial up a channel number. Ham radios use tuning dials/pads, because hams don't use numbered channels. A case can be made for having two radios--unless the new Icom gives you both options.

As xort mentions, it is rare for anyone to get busted for offshore use of anything--as long as there are no complaints. INshore...that's something else, since marine radios are much 'cleaner' than ham radios with regard to spurious emissions, and have a more limited audio range--so a good ear can quite literally tell what you are using by the sound of it, and the frequncy spatter.

I'm sure you'll find older threads on this subject here, if not on other web and ham forums.

If you are not technically inclined, and don't want to invest in one of the dual-purposed ICOMs (I don't know if any other vendor makes similar radios), I'd suggest spending money on the marine HF, and then adding a lower cost used ham radio form a reputable source (i.e. one of the stores) to supplement it. That way you are fully legal, fully redundant (if you use two antennas) as well. And there are plenty of HF ham radios, used, at reasonable prices.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Could you explain?

Hi;

I would like to know more about the statement below. I just passed my technicians test, and will hopefully take the general test in a month or so. I don't plan on transmitting only listening with my radio, a ts-480, on the marine bands, but out of country it may be something that is considered. What about the HAM radio makes it emit spurious emissions? Since most mobile ham radios are 100 watt max, I assume you mean that ham rigs that are using amplifiers may transmit further.

One other question - how do weather routers such as Herb broadcast from land legally, as I understand that it is not legal to transmit on marine frequencies from shore? Is there a special license for this?

Chris

As xort mentions, it is rare for anyone to get busted for offshore use of anything--as long as there are no complaints. INshore...that's something else, since marine radios are much 'cleaner' than ham radios with regard to spurious emissions, and have a more limited audio range--so a good ear can quite literally tell what you are using by the sound of it, and the frequncy spatter.
 
#15 ·
Witzgall-
What k1vsk said, mainly. Lots of folks have tin ears and think Am radio is just as good as fm radio is just as good as tapes or cds. Some of us can tell the difference--in the right setting. Add some background noise, like car road noise, and most people can't tell them apart any more.
Same thing with ham /vs/ marine HF radios, there are different specs for the audio and a good ear can tell them apart. And a ham radio may offer options for audio compression or bandwidth that a marine radio wouldn't.
Ham radios are generally "built to a price" because they are sold to hobbyists who don't need to buy them, who will make decisions based on price just like any mass market. Marine radios are required on commercial vessels--so they may also be built to a price, but the buyers are more concerned with performance, and a couple of hundred bucks is a flyspec on the build sheet for a commercial SHIP.

You can use marine radios legally from the shore, there are different licenses available besides the usual "ships station license". There is a variation for portable use (i.e. I have a license that is attached to *me* and not a vessel, so I can take it with me if I'm crewing or using someone else' boat) and another variation for yacht clubs and marinas, who operate a fixed shore station and sometimes a fleet license to cover their dinks, etc. as well.

To find out what is currently available (regs change) you can always explore the FCC's web site, which sometimes is hard to search, or call their licensing division and speak to a human being. And then of course, outside the US all the regs change again.
 
#16 ·
Be aware that to use a Marine SSB radio you need a Ship's Station License and a Restricted Radio Operator's License from the FCC. To use the Marine SSB on ham frequencies, you also need a Ham license.
 
#21 ·
Not meaning to revive the dead, but is there an Amateur Radio that transmits on all bands and receives every frequency?
ALL bands? ALL Freqs? What does this mean? Unless you have equal space (and a few BILLION $$$) as underneath the NSA Ft Meade - I don't think so.

Amateur bands - yes. However usually only one received transmission at a time will come out the audio driver, and only one at a time (3 KHz wide with respect to others) can be transmitted legally with some significant tuning and adjustment required for each freq - whether receive or transmit. BTW - a frequency measurement is infintessimal. (sp?) Good question for most though. Sorry I don't have the time to explain thoroughly.
 
#19 ·
Jeff, anything that is commercially made and sold "as" a ham radio, is retricted to transmission on the amateur bands. A licensed ham is allowed to build or modify anything they please, which brings with it the responsibility to "control" your station and keep it within legal operation as the situation may be.

You'll find many of the ham transceivers can be "opened" to out-of-band use, but due to design considerations "dc to daylight" usually means a radio that is at best only a fair performer somewhere along the way. And then too, there's the matter of budget. Wider range with better performance usually means a bigger more expensive radio, too.
 
#20 ·
...another HAM Extra here. The only question I feel need be asked/answered, aside from all the legal and license stuff, is - are all your crew able to yank that mic off a complicated HAM radio and begin transmitting on CH 16, or will they need to find the manual to find out how to turn it on, how to receive, how to transmit, what power settings, antenna switch, tuner settings, etc.

Do yourself a favor - get a nice (small) HAM rig with a built-in tuner to light up your backstay, and get a nice VHF that stays tuned to big illuminated letters that show CH 16 and WX ALERT. All scenarios considered - this is no doubt your best bet.
 
#25 ·
Basically whole thing is a minefield-whats legal in US can be illegal here in UK;in international waters theoretically you are bound by the regulations of the country you are registered in.In theUS you can buy a restricted marine HF operators licence-in the UK you have to sit an exam-total cost about $500.
Icom SSBs US legal $1200 upwards-here in UK to comply with European leglislation abot $1500 minimum.
So over here Ham licence is far more appealing and you can pick up a good Ham radio for about $500.
If you want to spend your time chatting to Oil Tanker captains then get a marine HF radio;if you want to talk to other small boat sailers get a Ham Radio modified so in an emergency quite legally all be it with an illegal modification you can get help.
 
#26 ·
I'd hardly call it a minefield. Most of us are citizens of just one country (although some can play the dual or triple nationality game) and that gives us only one legal avenue for radio licensing. Ditto for the title/flag on the boat.

And then you operate under that one set of restrictions, which INCLUDE reciprocity agreements with other nations. And you follow those terms when operating in another sovereign's waters. When there's no reciprocity, you still follow that other sovereign's laws. For radios, pollution, contraband, and everything else.

No big deal, you just need to do your homework ahead of time.
 
#27 ·
Well perhaps not a minefield BUT-
If you take the marine HF option here in the UK you licence the boat as a marine station-totally free and takes a few minutes online and open to any one from anywhere so long as you have a UK address-believe its the same in the US?-what you get is a call sign unique to your vessel.
To use the radio to transmit you then either need an internationally recognised long range operators certificate;or to be supervised by someone with one;or an internationally recognised full ham licence with permission of the vessels captain.
These regulations or any breach of them are applied by whichever country your vessels radio station is registered in.
As far as I am aware you can transmit on any internationally agreed channels so that includes marine and ham.
If you have a marine hf radio however new ones tend to be preprogrammed push button affairs set up for marine channels. You have to modify them to transmit on Ham channels-no problem other than if you happen to be a boat from Europe there are several Ham chanels popular with US sailors that are unlicenced over here so technically if you mod the radio to access these if heading across to the US /west Indies you are committing an offence under European leglislation.
Likewise several of the Marine Icoms popularly used in the US do not have DSC fitted-again illegal in Europe.BUT your radio details are not taken as part of licencing info.If you are a US boat operating in Europe no problem as leglislation only applies to European vessels.
Which nicely brings me to Ham radios.
It is illegal under international agreed and locally applied leglislation to modify a Ham radio to transmit on all chanels IF you are a land based Ham operator. However if you are operating from a Marine station-on your boat-as far as I can gather with a full Ham licence or Marine long range operators licence or under the supervision of long range operator you can transmit on marine chanels so the offence becomes somewhat vague in my opinion..
Last but not least in the event of a real emergency international agreement allows anyone by any means to summon help without threat of being prosecuted for an offence.
Confusing or what!
As for cost both here and in the US Ham training takes you through 3 stages to full licence and costs very little. Certainly in the UK and I would guess in the US Long Range marine operators certificates tend to be run by nautical colleges and are aimed at training comercial operators.As such over here they can cost around about £1000/$1500
 
#28 ·
"It is illegal under international agreed and locally applied leglislation to modify a Ham radio to transmit on all chanels IF"
IN the US, under ITU and FCC regulation, no.
A ham radio may not be commercially sold unless it meet type acceptance, and does not transmit out of the ham bands, but that regulation applies to manufacturers and dealers, NOT HAM LICENSEES. A ham radio licensee in the US is personally and completely responsible for the legal operation of their radio(s) and allowed to make any and all modifcaitons that they please, including building equipment of ay type from scratch.
If you doubt that, contact our FCC, there's no debate.

As a ham radio operator you are also allowed broad liberty with "emergency operation". And for that reason I have legally modified my ham VHF radio so that it is capable of operating in the marine VHF bands and other frequencies, so that if I have to abandon ship and the normal marine VHF is lost or non-functional, I can legally use the ham radio, on marine band, to place a perfectly legal distress call.
Such operation is in fact encouraged by our regulations, the amateur radio service is allowed to occupy valuable airspace for several reasons and public service / emergency operations is probably at the top of the list these days.

Your rules in the UK probably will vary, but in the US this is legal and proper. By federal regulation, for emergency operation, pretty much anything goes if it will accomplish the goal of saving lives and property. WIthout causing excess mayhem, obviously.
 
#29 ·
The Icom 802 originally came as a Marine SSB/MF/HF set only, and if you wanted the ham frequencies you had to send the set back to a tech to have the Easter egg removed (at a cost) on the production of your Ham licence. This has now changed and the Easter egg has been discontinued. I think mainly as the large number of units being sent back for the modification and the increased use of sailmail using a greater number of frequencies.
 
#30 ·
Some rigs are legal on both marine and ham bands (SGC comes to mind) so getting it modified for ham transmit freqs isn't a problem - legally or operationally.

Many ham rigs can be modified for marine use but you'll need to check to make sure. In some cases it's simply lifting a jumper wire, others require cutting a diode, and some require reprogramming. The important thing is to make sure that the radio your choice can transmit on ham frequencies. Most marine and ham radios are general coverage receivers.

I know of no one who's been visited by the FCC for the expressed purpose of verifying that the SSB is not modified. In most cases, the modified radio will sound the same as the type accepted. Manufacturers like ICOM, Yaesu, or Kenwood produce radios for most frequencies.

I carried a modifed ICOM 751A for a number of years and had no reported problems of audio quality, frequency stability, or other discernible features.
 
#31 ·
Some very interesting and well informed responses and I stand corrected.
This is something quite new to me-long range HF tranceivers.
Short range VHF I am very familiar with.
What really interests me however is what appears to be a misguided believe by many land based ham amateurs that modifying or at least using a modified radio to transmit on Marine Chanels is illegal not only when on land but even when at sea..This issue is often discussed on Ham sites both sides of the Atlantic.
There also appears to be here in the UK an impression created that using radios with such mods is illegal and certainly not acceptable.
Take a look at this UK based site
YachtCom - Marine Radio | Marine SSB MF HF VHF | Radio Licence | Marine Weather Bulletins | SSB email | Coastguards frequencies
I however do suspect that this site is sponsored by Icom.
Moding radios can be quite easy-many of the Yaesu tranceivers for example.
The early FT 757 has a wired in slide switch with later models having jumper leads;FT840s require no more than accessing part of the chanel programming.
However it appears to me that Icom make it difficult? because they would prefer you to use their more expensive dedicated marine tranceivers?
Having said all of this I cannot really imagine the US licencing authority or in my case the UK licencing authority Offcom dropping a member of their inspection team onto a yacht mid atlantic to see if you have the proper documentation!:)
 
#32 ·
Various national authorities have varying regulations about requiring modifications to be difficult, or at least, inconvenient, in some radio service types. So the prudent manufacturer these days does not provide any obvious means of modifying a radio. The mods may be as simple as cutting a wire, removing a diode, or entering a "secret" program code, but they will be unapparent to the casual user, in order to meet regulations.

Since most radio equipment is sold to a global market these days and the same basic equipment must meet "all" regulations, changes in configuration are usually provided for, at some level. But not at an obvious one.

With regard to inspection teams, most governments do not waste time and money inspecting radios in any detail, unless complaints have been filed. Using a radio out of band may cause problems and get complaints filed, it has to be done with eyes open. And then there are countries like China, where simply entering the country with a radio transmitter that has not been licensed by the Chinese government, will get you arrested for espionage.

Knowing the rules can be important.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top