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Pulled out a cleat at my slip, now getting pursued for damages - advice please

15K views 95 replies 54 participants last post by  dacap06 
#1 ·
Need some advice on this one. Over the winter, the boat pulled a cleat out of the dock where I pay a slip fee. It turns out the the floating dock that we are tied to belongs to someone other than the marina. So when the floating dock owner called the marina, the marina said to come after me for the money. The boat is exactly where the marina put it the day they put her back in the water, so I feel it should be the marina's call, especially since I'm paying them for the slip.

Damages look like replacing the cleat that snapped off and screwing the facia board back onto the floating dock. It's a 60 foot floating dock, so the fee to haul it out to do the work is going to be substantial. My deductible is huge, and I'm not sure I should be paying this.

So I got a call from the owner, asking for my insurance information. What do you think I should do next?

Regards,
Brad
 
#6 ·
Correct

Post your question in the Ask a Lawyer section of the Avvo.com - Expert Advice When You Need It Most lawyer directory in the state where the marina is located: Ask a Lawyer - Avvo.com
Done. Good idea.

read the fine print of your agreement first? Keep insisting it wasn't secure and you almost lost your boat? look for damage on your boat to make a counter claim. Get ready to find another home for you boat too.
Jus sayin...
I don't believe we have a contract. They did a short haul of my boat and then offered the slip afterward.

Regards,
Brad
 
#4 ·
read the fine print of your agreement first? Keep insisting it wasn't secure and you almost lost your boat? look for damage on your boat to make a counter claim. Get ready to find another home for you boat too.
Jus sayin...
 
#5 ·
Preface-I'm definitely not an attorney. This should be detailed in the moorage agreement you have with the marina. Our contract for moorage spells out various liabilities etc and who is responsible. If you were directed to this slip by the marina, and were tied in such a way that was acceptable to them then it would seem to me if "their" hardware was either insufficiently strong to hold your boat, or the structure of the float wasn't strong enough to hold the through bolts then that should be on them. The cleats need to be appropriately sized for the size and displacement of the boat tied to them. The fact that only one was torn out suggests to me that there was a structural problem (rot, corrosion, etc) at that cleat. Good luck.
 
#7 ·
You have no relationship with the dock owner so I wouldnt speak to them. I would refer them to the marina you have a business relationship with.

I would also make a point that it was employees of the marina that secured your boat in such a way as to allow the dock to be damaged.

After that theres nothiing to do but lawyer up and be ready for court.
 
#10 · (Edited)
...
I would also make a point that it was employees of the marina that secured your boat in such a way as to allow the dock to be damaged.
..
If this is correct, I mean if it was not you but the marina staff that secured your boat I cannot see how you have to pay. If it was you that secured the boat they can say that it was not properly secured and that the forces where not properly distributed.

They provide a service and the means to do it. If the means are not up to provide the service how can this be your fault?

This is a problem between you and the one that provide you with a service: the marina. The problem to know if the marina could rent the space that belonged to someone else is between the marina and the owner of that space.

Regards

Paulo
 
#12 ·
Does your marina have or have they had a relationship of some form that allowed your marina the use of the dock your boat was secured to?
 
#13 ·
I would take the position that (a) your only contract is with the marina, and it is between the marina and the slip owner (who you did not even know was not the marina); and (b) in any case, all you did was tie the boat up to the marina in the normal course, and if the slip was damaged, it is the fault of deficient hardware on the slip and not you or your boat.
 
#14 ·
If you have a choice, move your boat and make no further response to anyone about the incident.

In my opinion, they are at the, "Let's try to get someone else to pay stage," one of the most common stages of American life. If they reach the talk to an attorney stage, I think that this will go away.

If you have no choice about storing your boat or must maintain the relationship with the marina, I suggest that you hire an attorney to talk with them and see if he/she can't make it go away for $200 or less without directly changing your relationships.
 
#16 ·
I wouldn't, slip rental might be cheaper than hauling and repairing the dock.
 
#17 ·
Good luck Bene…I hope justice and common sense prevail.

This raises a hypothetical question in my mind. I am in a marina that, I assume owns all of their docks. If my boat pulled the cleat off the dock and hit the boat in the next slip….who is financially responsible for repairs to the dock, my boat, and my neighbor’s boat? Is there a general rule of thumb or is it a contract by contract situation?
 
#18 ·
if u have proof of payment to them u should only be dealing with the marina. most insurance ive heard/know about will cover ur lawyer fees to an exent. call ur insurance and have your people talk to their people. they (ur insuance) have lawyers in their pocket lol

imho of coarse...
 
#19 ·
Absent any contractual language that makes the boat (owner) responsible for all damage to mooring devices, I'd say that a cleat or its anchoring timbers that give up the ghost while undergoing the loads of a properly-moored (i.e. you didn't lead six lines to one cleat, or try to spring-pivot off it at full throttle) and proper-sized boat for the slip, is due to the mooring bitt being either too weak or improperly maintained.

Therefore it's "wharfinger's" fault, not vessel's.
 
#20 ·
Call your insurance agent. A boat owner is responsible for the damage caused by their boat. The marinas that I have berthed at out here on the West Coast all required proof of $300K liability insurance and that they were listed as “co-insured” on the policy. If the dock timbers were rotten, it was your responsibility to notify the marina management for repair. If you had done this before the incident, then perhaps some of the “blame” could be apportioned to the marina management. Right now, your only recourse it to negotiate a settlement with the owner to share the repair expense. Fight with him, and you will most likely lose the suit and then be stuck with the entire repair bill.
 
#36 ·
Call your insurance agent. A boat owner is responsible for the damage caused by their boat. The marinas that I have berthed at out here on the West Coast all required proof of $300K liability insurance and that they were listed as "co-insured" on the policy. If the dock timbers were rotten, it was your responsibility to notify the marina management for repair. If you had done this before the incident, then perhaps some of the "blame" could be apportioned to the marina management. Right now, your only recourse it to negotiate a settlement with the owner to share the repair expense. Fight with him, and you will most likely lose the suit and then be stuck with the entire repair bill.
That sounds just insane enough to be the legal truth. :eek::rolleyes: I can sure see a Canadian judge coming up with a ruling that "Red Queen" demented.
 
#21 ·
OK, I'm not a lawyer so please bear with me on a couple of thoughts.

First, unless Bene was negligent in how he secured his vessel then my initial thought is that he shoulders no fault here.

The marina knew the size/displacement of Bene's boat. By assigning him this particular parking place, they assume responsibility for ensuring that is it adequately sized to hold his vessel. It was their call to put him there, not Bene's. The marina should carry their own insurance to cover things like this.

If the cleat tore out due to improper maintenance of the dock and/or dock hardware, then the owner is at fault. Look at it another way: Say the mailman comes to my house, and while he is delivering the mail the front door falls off of the hinges. You think the USPS is going to buy me a new door? I'm betting not... The dock owner and the marina need to work it out between themselves.

Of course, this is assuming that common sense is at play here.

Bene, I hope you don't wind up having to get lawyered up for this one. I'm in full agreement that you should be dealing only with the marina.
 
#22 ·
George in your scenario the marina bears no responsibility for their docks or equipment. I can't see that being the case -- even if their slip agreement is written that way. I'm not a lawyer but I do know that a contract can't supercede the law. Put another way, if you fell through the dock would it be your fault for not swimming underneath to check its condition?

I'd put it right back in the marina's lap. Their equipment failed -- regardless of whether they're subletting that equipment. It's not up to you to determine the cause. Online everybody wants to be a lawyer and overthink these things.

I wouldn't get the insurance company involved unless this guy really wants to push it. Sounds like a fishing expedition. Hopefully you have a good relationship with the marina. That could help.

Best of luck Brad. Dealing with this is the kind of thing that can really ruin your day.
 
#23 ·
liability insurance deductible unlikely

Brad,
I believe you mentioned that you had not contacted your insurance company because your "deductible is huge". Most likely, your deductible only applies to damage to your boat. Liability deductibles are rare on marine insurance. I suggest you talk to your insurance company and let them deal with it.
 
#24 ·
I think we have an apples and oranges comparison. A person falling through an unsafe dock is far different than your property causing damage to someone else’s property. The analogy would be more like: You park your car on a hill. Somehow, it rolls down the hill and hits a parked rental car. Who is responsible, the person who rented the car? The car’s manufacturer who should have foreseen you parking on that hill? I would still work with your insurance company and the owner of the property in order to mitigate your exposure.

This does bring up some interesting questions. Who’s insurance company pays for the damages in a hurricane or tsunami? When the tsunami hit Santa Cruz there were plenty of boats sunk or damaged by being hit by other boats or docks? Any Santa Cruz sailors out there?
 
#25 ·
Would it really require hauling a 60 ft dock out of the water to replace a face board and a cleat?

It certainly can't hurt to get advice from your insurance company.

I tend to agree with those that have saidl; the only contract you had was between you and the marina. If they're a full service yard, they already have labor, and they must have cleats. If the marina leases the docks from dock owner and then rents them to you, it would seem they have an obligation to maintain them. But that couldn't be known without seeing their contractual arrangement. What's in the fine print of your rental agreement?
 
#27 ·
Wait a minute...lemme get this straight.

1. You rent a slip at this marina
2. The marina launched your boat and tied it to the dock that got damaged. But, if I understand your original post, the boat WAS NOT IN YOUR SLIP. Please clarify. The marina parked your boat there on a temporary basis?

If that's the case, I'd tell the dock owner to bugger off. What if the marina owner was launching the boat, but dropped it on someone's Mercedes? Your fault? I don't think so.
 
#28 ·
Not only am I not a lawyer, but I really don't know jack about anything.

Having said that, it's my opinion that nobody has a legal right to your insurance information. If the dock owner is legally entitled to compensation from you, then they need to take that up with you. You can decide whether to submit a claim to your insurance company or not.

I once had a truck that was struck and significantly damaged by another vehicle while my truck was parked. The other driver's insurance company asked me for my insurance information, and told me that I had to file a claim with my insurance company first, to see if they would pay. I did not give them the information, and told them that my insurance had nothing to do with the other driver's liability for the damage to my truck. Likewise, I think it's possible that the dock owner is hoping that they can get some free money from your insurance. I think that here in the U.S., many people think of insurance as a way to get money out of an unfortunate situation without anyone having to take responsibility, and many policy holders go along with this because they feel like they've dodged a bullet if their insurance company pays somebody.

If I were in the position that I think you've described, I would respond once, or perhaps twice, to the dock owner with a polite registered letter explaining that you are not liable for the damages to their dock. After that I would ignore them until contacted by a lawyer. I certainly would not give them my insurance information as that is none of their business.

By the way, it wouldn't hurt to get some advice from an attorney now. Many will offer a free consultation.
 
#29 ·
I wonder if you all should reconsider this attitude: Do you really want to move? If you got the owner & the marina master out to look at the problem, the 3 of you could fix it together ;& come away loking like best friends, No War! You I am afraid got caught up in,a on going Problem, that a cool head could easily sort out . Life short . Offer to take the guy sailing!...Dale
 
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