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Sailboat Quality

20K views 51 replies 29 participants last post by  SloopJonB 
#1 ·
I am relatively new to sailing, and have a burning question.....

I am going to be in the used boat market for a while. I realize that there are MANY variables, the care of owners, the after market equipment... but.....

When all these things are considered, on average......

In terms of initial build quality and long term reliability, what are the various brands of boat ranked from highest quality to lowest?

I also have heard that certain decades of certain builders varied over time, denote as needed!
 
#5 ·
This is a good question and has been asked and answered many times in the past. A rehash it always good though.
Your question is probably not the real question however. The real question is probably more like "How do I go about picking a boat for me?" The underlying assumption is that while you are looking you might as well look at boats with known good quality. Which is logical but misses a lot of reality.
Most of us when looking at boats for the first time use our experience in shopping for cars as a rough guide. This does not however work out as well as one would expect.

One reason the car analogy does not work with boats is because the boats you will most likely be looking at will be from 10 to 30 years old.
Boats are much more complicated than cars having multiple electrical and water and power systems.
Boats are much more likely to be modified, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worst.

A simplistic answer to your question is to check the list price of the boats. One would think that if the vendor was able to get 100,000 or more for the same length boat it would be a better boat.
True but not the whole story. Someone like Catalina or Benateau that takes only days to build a boat has much less labor costs than a builder that takes months to build a boat. The production boat is much better built than the numbers would indicate because the cost of molds and factory setup is spread over so many units.

So to answer your real question you have to decide on:
1. Where you are going to sail it and how often.
2. How many people and for how long at a time (day, weekend, weeks, months)
3. Your budget.
4. Your experience
5. Are you a do-it yourselfer with skills and tools if not are you willing to learn and buy the tools
6. If you have specific goals what are they?
7. How much time will you have?

With these answers we can discuss specific boats and their merits.

To give you a specific example if you were to see a Catalina 25 for $4,000 in impeccable condition and a beat up Swan 42 with a blown motor for 200,000 the Swan is the better pedigree boat.
Which boat if either is the boat for you however depends on the answer to the above questions.

For a simple market value ranking just check prices on yachtworld.
 
#6 ·
The real question is probably more like "How do I go about picking a boat for me?"
Well..... for me, it's actually closer to the real question for a couple of reasons....

I sail in fresh water great lakes, so the punishment of the salt sea is not an issue. The #1 reason of a used boats condition seems to be original build quality. You can really see it looking at a ODay, compared to say, a Pearson.

I realize that previous owner care counts for alot. But, in big freshwater lakes, no-one is going crazy outfitting their boat with lots of stuff to go long distance cruising. Most boats are pretty minimal for equipment and this is less of a factor in used boat cost.

This comes down to there being a host of used boats in the 1970-1990 range all around 27-36 feet long (most have stayed in the lakes their whole lives). The three factors that seem to determine the used price are (in no particular order)

1. Age
2. Length
3. Original build quality

There seems to be consistency in #3. You walk in some brands and its all wood finish, and the build quality is obvious. Others, not so much. I'll make the intellectual leap that the quality in those certain brands extends from what I can see to what I can't.

To take a more mundane example:

Walmart
JC Penny
Target
EMS

I bet you can tell which end is the better quality :)
 
#8 ·
I have a Capri 25, that many say is a terrible quality boat (I can see why they might say it mind you, but I dunno any of them are unique to that boat alone)... but, keep in mind, the boat is 30 years old. At 30, I think it's holding up pretty well.

I'll give a +1 to Landgull, get sailing, worry about quality later. Any boat can do well, if it's maintained well.
 
#9 ·
I should add that I am on my 3rd boat... and starting to become more sensitive to the question of quality.

When you are buying 20-30 year old boats, whether the manufacturer spent that extra time and effort to make those chinplates bulletproof starts becoming important :)
 
#18 ·
Great Now we have something specific to argue about.:)

I would argue that in a lake with a 20+ year old boat the original build quality of the chain plates means less than nothing. Chain plates should be replace every 10 years, they are not a 30 year part.

I would rather have the o'day that had a full rig replace 5 years ago than a Pearson with a 30 year old rig.

Other than the fiberglass and the aluminum spars their is probably nothing on a boat that doesn't need if not replacement at least serious inspection and repair after 30 years.

A old boat is like George Washingtons ax. The head has been replaced 5 times the handle replaced 10 times but it's still GW's ax. What difference does the original quality make?

Don't forget I'm talking lake and coastal now. Off-shore other things start to matter like deck to hull connection, stringers, bulkhead tabbing, layup schedule and tankage. Things that make the boat more suitable for off-shore use and would typically be too expensive to refit although it has been done.
 
#10 ·
Probably the better question is "what is the best quality boat at a certain size and age at a particular price". Even there you will get tremendous variation based on the care and maintenance that the boat has had.

We recently bought a boat and looked at all of these things, and especially resale value. If a boat that is a certain age is still selling at or above it's original sales price (on average) you may be looking at a good value.

Take your time and look at boats in your price range....ask other boat owners, research boat listings and go to owners websites to find out how the actual owners feel about their boats. You will hear much variety but you will find people who upgrade to the same brand....time after time. That says a lot.

Because boats are so different....for different needs....you can't easily list them like cars, as another poster said. Think of them more like Horses.

If you need one for trail riding and you are looking at race horses....no mater how much of a value he is and how much you pay for him, you won't be very happy when you try him out on the trail. Also even a free horse costs the same to feed and stable as most of the others. You will spend less if you are willing to put in more work, but it will be a while before you are riding comfortably. And most important ....getting rid of a bad one is tough....everyone will be looking him in the mouth!
 
#11 ·
I can't answer your question but I would like to support the validity of such a question. It's true that there are numerous, maybe countless, factors that go into selecting the "right" boat for your needs. But one of those factors is build quality, and you have chosen to ask that specific question here. I hope you get the answers you seek.
 
#12 ·
Hrmmmmm

I am surprised that people are not being more definitive. Yes, I realize that aftermarket stuff, maintenance all go into the price.

But when we walk on a 1985 C&C or Ericson, even my wife can see they were built to higher quality standards than a Hunter or MacGregor!
 
#19 · (Edited)
That is exactly why I'm not being definitive although Caleb gave you a good run down.
The original build quality is obvious to anyone.

The risk is that you fall in love with the pretty C&C that is still pretty but someone sucked all the life out of and will be a money pit for you. You could have bought the not so pretty Hunter that is impeccably maintained you could sail for years with minimal trouble.

If you are already on your third boat you know this already though.:)
We buy with our heart and maintain with our wallet.

We all want a boat we can be proud of. It's a bonus if it floats however.
 
#15 ·
Swann, Hinkley = Rolls Royce
Chance, CS (Canadian Seacraft?), PS (Pacific Sailcraft?) = Jaguar
early Tartan, Cal, Cape Dory, "J" boats, Allied and maybe Bristol = high end Cadillac of their times
--------------------
Beneteau = Lexus
Catalina = Toyota
Hunter = Honda
O'Day = GM

I left out a lot of brands, didn't I.

I don't think you will find 'bulletproof' chain plates in many of these mfr's older boats except perhaps Swan or Hinckley. Chain plates, no matter how well designed and implemented suffer from repetitive stress fatigue and need replacing before the rig comes down.

Bulletproof and unsinkable are both unlikely adjectives to combine with the noun: "boat". Remember the 'Titanic'?

All boats (even new ones) need periodic maintenance. Older boats just need more.
 
#17 ·
If you're into reading I recommend "Heart of Glass" by Daniel Spurr. It's the history of fiberglass boat manufacturers and gives insight into their boats and the their trade-offs in building them. I agree with what's been said about the "quality" of a boar being mostly about what your expectations are. The older the boat is the more how it's been maintained comes into play. From time to time Good Old Boat does comparison articles of older boats.
 
#20 ·
I would argue that in a lake with a 20+ year old boat the original build quality of the chain plates means less than nothing. Chain plates should be replace every 10 years, they are not a 30 year part.
I disagree. On my boat the chainplates are built to last, and it is a good thing because it would be a major job! This is one example of the initial build quality of the boat. Some of the more lightly rigged boats out there may need to replace their chainplates, but on boats like mine they were done right on the initial build and 33 years later there is absolutely no concern about failure!
 
#21 · (Edited)
What boats NEED to replace their chainplates every 10 years ?

SchockT's experience with his Santana30 not having a hint of chainplate issues after 33 years seems to be the more typical situation.


BTW - one of our Harbor daysailer owners also has a 50ft Swan circa 30 years old. His chainplates did need to be replaced due to corrosion.

The Schock Harbor 30 has a carbon fiber-epoxy-G10 stringer/ring frame that the SS-316 chainplates connect to. The thickened laminate extends 24" either side of the stringer to better distribute loads from keel-shrouds. It is a very very stiff system. The stringer and thickened laminate runs high enough up that the chainplates are never going to get wet. It turns out the Navy leadership 44s have a similar design approach.
 
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#25 ·
What boats NEED to replace their chainplates every 10 years ?

SchockT's experience with his Santana30 not having a hint of chainplate issues after 33 years seems to be the more typical situation.
Santana 30/30 Email list archive: re: rig tuning

All parts on all boats are subject to damage and wear after years of service.
I didn't say that they needed to be replaced but that they needed to looked after and inspected. Even then they are suspect.
We just had a sailnet fellow dougsabagg that lost his gulfstar 50 due to chain plate failure. He had inspected only one side of the boat and they looked good.

Unless you pull them you will not see the damage as the damage is typically just below the deck.

My point is that original build quality can actually be counter productive.
The Hunter may have had to be refit at 20 years because of lower quality parts so whey you buy it at 25 years you get a deal.
The premium boat may be all original at 30 years. Guess who gets to refit it?
Nothing lasts forever.
 
#22 ·
Er... let's not get distracted on chainplates!

All things considered equal... initial build quality does make a difference. Some manufacturers overbuild, some cut corners to cut costs.
 
#23 ·
Yes, but the car analogy is a good one. There is no point in worrying about the Ferraris and the Rolls Royces if you are on a Ford budget! Best to zero in on boats in your price range and then examine the build quality differences between them. Sometimes it is not even the build quality that makes one better than the other but their choice of hardware and rigging.
 
#26 ·
vtsailguy-- I'm in your neck of the woods. I don't have an answer for your question, but when we were looking I had my budget and looked at just about every boat (at least the online listing) that fell within my budget parameters and size requirements. I didn't want to transport here, so that narrowed down my list to what was selling local. Typically, when I found a boat that would appeal to me, I'd then go online and research the heck out of it, learn what issues to look for, etc.

Ended up buying through Bruce Hill Yacht Sales and they made it a very smooth, easy transaction. We closed on August 4, launched the boat that same day, and have been sailing as much as possible since.
 
#38 ·
Ended up buying through Bruce Hill Yacht Sales and they made it a very smooth, easy transaction. We closed on August 4, launched the boat that same day, and have been sailing as much as possible since.
I got my first boat through BH

What you get and where are you moored?
 
#28 ·
there are many great boats. how is the sailor who is going to be handling the boat??? is he or she as great as the boat???
folks can argue boat marques for hours if not days.
when you find the boat that is right for YOU, you will suffer the same lust you suffer in spouse hunting. but ye wont be able to survive without that boat..... then ye know is correct boat for you--even if everyone else in life poo poos your choice. is yours, not ours, and only you have to deal with the result of your searching.

both of my boats were built in 1970s--and each is great for the kind of boat each is. each has a different reason for being built. i am cruising a heavycruiser--i am selling a daysailing/weekender 35.
 
#29 ·
Lots of variables to consider as others have pointed out. Suggest you find a boat that you like/meets your needs. Then go to yachtworld.com and plug into the advanced search length, age, hull material, etc. of the boat you like. Sort that search result by price and you'll have idea of the market's idea of quality ranking for that particular year, anyway. One caveat to be careful of, though. Some boats are built much more heavily than others. For example, Island Packet purposely builds heavy boats. A similar sized Catalina, Beneteau, or Hunter will displace much less, and will be correspondingly less expensive to build. Pound for pound, the Island Packets will cost generally the same as light displacement boats of a similar size and similar production quality.
 
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#30 ·
WHEN the boat was made has a huge effect on quality. Early Catalinas (1970's - early 1980s) were definitely in the "Yugo" grade of quality compared to boats built in the last twenty years or so. Then again, that was more or less the standard of boar manufacturing of the era. Lots of from that time period, and before, were made using methods that would be deemed totally unacceptable today (e.g., gate valves on thru-hulls, mild steel used in structural supports, et cetera).
 
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#31 ·
(e.g., gate valves on thru-hulls, mild steel used in structural supports, et cetera).
I know about the gate valves and the plywood in the sump that causes the Catalina smile but where is the mild steel and which models?
 
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