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Flare-guns and other alternatives (excluding guns) as weapons

33K views 59 replies 31 participants last post by  beachbm61 
#1 ·
I recall some time ago (2 yrs maybe) there was a thread on some sailing forum (on Cruiser, SSCA, or this one ... my first guess is on this one) but I don't recall which one. It was a lengthy discussion on weapon options other than guns, which included as I recall how to use flare guns, camelflouging shot gun shells for this purpose, etc

In light of the latest tragedy in Thailand, and one who currently lives in NZ so am well aware of Peter Blake being dead likely because he carried a gun (pls no debate on that), this latest tragedy reminded me of that old thread.

I'm interested in learning more about the Flare Gun option, or for that matter other options cruisers have used (other than guns and a machete). If anyone knows of the thread I am referring to, I would appreciate being able to access it. I'm also intersted in learning about other alternatives cruisers have had on board (again other than guns).

Again, and at the risk of repeating myself, I'm NOT AT ALL interested in starting another "guns-no guns" debate.

Thanks in advance.
 
#2 · (Edited)
There is as you may be aware a healthy guns vs no guns debate going on in the 'to be armed when cruising' thread anyway....

To start anew another thread looking at good alternatives is a great idea.

I have already presented some options over there( Ones I have heard of and researched, I have no first hand experience on this) , so apologies for some repeat posting but I figure that there will be some who may wish not to go through that thread and all it's sordid controversy and heated discussion.


1) As has been suggested Buddy boating. Avoid VHF chatter however that may give away location and activity. Potential 'Pirates' may be monitoring. Keep on the HF.

2) Toy Guns. Plastic AK47's from Toys R Us look pretty convincing from a distance. The apporaching slightly hesitant would-be pirate may be fooled enough to not take the risk.

3)Piracy at night is common. Keep good watches, dim Nav lights and avoid any unidentified vessels in suspect areas. Have a very bright spotlight handy, directed in the eyes of an approaching vessel it can make boarding or aiming very difficult. Followed by a shot from the flare gun it might have some results.

4)Piracy or theft at anchor is probably most common. Remember that even a modest yacht to alot of people in this world screams of oppulence. Keep cash and jewellery out of sight when visiting villages, place noisy pans, or marbles etc on deck as your early warning system of your vessel being boarded. Tapes of barking dogs have been used by cruisers as well.

5)Loud alarms/sirens??

I guess the best thing to do is to have a plan of some kind. Piracy is very uncommon. Attacks are often by poor fisherman, not modern day Blackbeard types, so deterrants can be very effective. The professional Pirate is generally not interested in your average cruising yacht, Larger cargo vessels are their focus.
 
#3 ·
#6 ·
This is an excerpt from the "Ursus International Website"

Bear bangers are readily available in Canada but harder to find in the US, is a "Pen-Type" bear banger launcher. As the name suggests, this item looks like a pen, and even has a convenient clip allowing it to be attached to a pocket, or pack sternum or shoulder strap. The body of the "pen" contains a spring and a firing-pin attached to a sliding trigger mechanism. With the trigger pulled back and slipped into the safety lock position, a "banger" cartridge can be screwed into the threaded end of the "pen". The unit is then carried in this way until it is either discharged or unloaded. The unit is fired by thumbing the "trigger" slider out of the safety lock position to the end of the opening it protrudes from, and then releasing it. The firing-pin strikes a .22 calibre blank round in the base of the cartridge, which propels the "banger" roughly 30 metres (35 yards), at which point it explodes.
The bangers compare in loudness to the report of a firecracker shell fired from a 12-gauge shotgun, and they should not be underestimated because of the appearance of the firing unit! They are potentially very dangerous, and have the capacity to damage hearing and to cause burns if used improperly. There is a second trigger lock position that allows the banger launcher to be carried "cocked", but it is advisable that it should only be carried in this way when it is likely to be fired at any moment. If the unit has been cocked in this way, the trigger should be carefully released and guided back to the safety lock position as soon as possible. Never carry the launcher in the cocked position!
The banger launcher should only be carried and used by people confident that they understand its capabilities and limitations. It should be used to scare off a threatening bear, and it is also suitable to be used with other threatening wildlife. However, it is of paramount importance to bear in mind that to drive an animal off, a banger device should be fired in front of an animal, i.e. between it an a hiker, and that misjudgment, resulting in the banger landing behind the animal, will drive it towards the firer! Any user, therefore, should know how to control the range of the bangers. This is achieved through recognising that holding the launcher at a 45 degree angle gives maximum trajectory, or range, and that steeper or lesser angles reduce range. By firing at a steeper angle, the banger will effectively be "lobbed" up, coming down closer to the firer than it would if fired at 45 degrees. Similarly, if fired at a lesser angle, the banger will hit the ground closer to the firer than if fired at 45 degrees. The risk in this is that hitting the ground could possibly cause the banger to break up and not explode, whereas "lobbed", it will either go off in the air or after hitting the ground at falling, rather than propelled, speed.
The best advice is to test the launcher before use, even if doing so uses several cartridges. A user must understand the importance of preventing a banger from going off behind a bear, as that will push it towards the firer. In addition bangers should not be fired directly at bears (or other animals), because of their potential to cause injury; ideally, they should be placed in front of and slightly to the side of the animal. Bear banger launchers are available in many outdoor stores in Western Canada, costing between $14-16. Cartridges cost the same, for a box of 6. Some launchers are sold with a combination of banger and flare cartridges, giving the unit the dual purpose of being able to function as a distress flare launcher. However, this combination pack only provides 2 actual banger cartridges. If you buy this package, be sure to buy a separate box of bear banger cartridges as well, to allow you to practice with the launcher.
 
#7 ·
I recall some time ago (2 yrs maybe) there was a thread on some sailing forum (on Cruiser, SSCA, or this one ... my first guess is on this one) but I don't recall which one. It was a lengthy discussion on weapon options other than guns, which included as I recall how to use flare guns, camelflouging shot gun shells for this purpose, etc

In light of the latest tragedy in Thailand, and one who currently lives in NZ so am well aware of Peter Blake being dead likely because he carried a gun (pls no debate on that), this latest tragedy reminded me of that old thread.

I'm interested in learning more about the Flare Gun option, or for that matter other options cruisers have used (other than guns and a machete). If anyone knows of the thread I am referring to, I would appreciate being able to access it. I'm also intersted in learning about other alternatives cruisers have had on board (again other than guns).

Again, and at the risk of repeating myself, I'm NOT AT ALL interested in starting another "guns-no guns" debate.

Thanks in advance.
The thread was on Sailnet. I am afraid that it too slipped into a gun debate. Such is the life of forums.

I say just take a flare gun, 12ga and 25 mm. Some country's will not even allow you to take those so carry a shark bat too. In all honestly, I think the incidences of actually needing a weapon are so very few and far between that it is not something I would be overly concerned (if you cruise in reasonable areas).

Brian
 
#10 · (Edited)
A SHARKBAT ?

One thing I wish to make perfectly clear is that a Wombat is of absolutely no use as an offensive weapon. (Unless loaded with chilli beans the night before. Then they can be very offensive indeed.)

What in heavens name is a Shark Bat ?
 
#13 ·
I think everyone's opinion here is quite sound and I doubt that I would confront anyone. I would just let them take what they needed and hopefully they will just go away. I can always replace what they took, but my life can't be replaced but I would want a backup system as an option.



I don't think it's dangerous and it is quite simple. (but it could be...this is definately not an endorsement, I've never used one myself) I took the liberty of borrowing my buddies to show you and anyone else that's interested. It works just like a flare gun, you screw on the flare or banger and to fire it you need to pull back on the fireing pin. As you can see in the photos, it's about the size of a pen and it's made of aluminum and probably a steel firing pin. Even if it's kept as a backup system in the ditch bag (it also fires flares) which are $18.00CAD for 6 flares, that's a lot cheeper than 12gauge flares which are about $100CAD for 12. It wouldn't replace a flare gun but I think it's great for taking in the bush or jungle. I think a bigger threat is a charging animal.

In any case, Blue Sovereign was wondering about other flare gun options so I thought this would be helpful.





Here it is taken appart (it's quite a simple mechanism)

 
#9 ·
The problem with any type of pseudo defence is that once you have scare the bejeezus out of them, nothing stops them from coming around again and spraying your boat with gunfire from a distance.

I think I've suggested this somewhere before, can't remember.

If an obviously belligerent vessel comes alongside and a parachute flare is fired into it's accommodation, the resultant fire will keep them busy for a while. A second may be too much to stop and the vessel will burn to the waterline. Whichever you manage to achieve, they will be reluctant to come back because your flare has range enough to be dangerous from a distance. Of course a Molotov Cocktail tends to attracts the receiver's attention as well.

The next problem is at what point do you decide that the occupants of an approaching boat mean you harm? Some of the "naval" vessels we have seen as well as many a well-intentioned fisherman look like a bunch of cut-throats. And by the time they're on board, unless you're Jacky Chan, you're toast.
 
#11 ·
I don't usually carry weapons on the boat, but if you carry some diving gear seems like it would be reasonable for you to also have a Bang Stick. Available in calibers from .22 to .357 and shotgun shell sizes. Because it is a point blank weapon (as they get close enough to identify as sharks or gators) they are effective even when firing a blank. Firing them out of the water voids the warranty of course.
Bang Stick - Mahalo
 
#12 ·
btw......re the latest incident in Thailand have a read of this from Noonsite.

That there could be a possible resurgence of piracy in Thailand , which has been pretty safe in recent years, is a major worry but this does appear to be a one off.

quote "This we believe may be a one-off in special circumstances where the three Myanmar culprits escaped from a Thai fishing boat where they were been treated as slaves. How what they claimed was a raid to get food went so terribly wrong we will never know. They were all in their teens, the youngest being 15. Perhaps a return to the Caribbean tactic of locking yourself in at night when in remote anchorages should be considered."

Full transcript on Noonsite.

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/val/R2009-03-26-1/view
 
#14 ·
I know alot of people are wondering what to do in a port, especially if you have decided to carry weapons but now have turned them in to customs. Are you safe at night?

These are only a few suggestions but, you know the biggest knife around is a machete. Lost of countries, you'll see 6 year olds walking down the street with one and nobody bats an eye. It's pretty long and if the other guy doesn't come aboard with a gun, at least you have a chance even before they get too close to do you harm.

Also if you happen to be a light sleeper the other alternative is a sling shot. A good one, that raps around the forearm. Load it with a good size pellets and it can make your opponent want to be someplace else. This actually worked for me one night, tied up to a crowded dock, when I was asleep in the v-berth and woke to the sound of my dinghy line tied to the bow being slipped. The guy had trouble starting the motor, and I yelled and screamed - you know, no one even popped out to see what was going on. But my trusty slingshot got him a couple of times, and that did the trick.

The other thing about going ashore, that is a nice confidence builder is this thing I constructed, really to ward off the dogs while I was going for my morning jog. I took the end of a stay that I had changed, cut off about a foot of the end and put it inside a heavy rope. It was sort of good for knot skills, because I put in a handle, and put the stay on the other end. It was like a weighted sap. The nice thing about it to, was the dogs were smart enough to know that I were swinging something really bad, and not one of them bothered me again, I didn't have to make contact or anything, it was nice not to have to worry after a couple of too close calls.

But for warding off pirates at sea, I don't have any good alternatives for you.

Linda
 
#18 ·
girls, if you actually own a flare gun, then you should also own expired flares after three years or less. And you really need to practice using the flare gun, if for no other reason that to see how puny and ineffective any non-SOLAS flare is.

So don't ask what flares can do, take an expired one, fire it up into the sky to see how it works. It will usually work even if it is ten years expired. Now take one and fire it at something you want to "kill". Don't be surprised if it bounces off and doesn't impress anyone.

There must be video already up on utube.
 
#19 ·
HS - can you make video?

We Canucks have no opportunity to fire expired flares. it is illegal.
 
#22 ·
If you can find an antique flare gun made of all metal these do not blow up when you fire a 12g round like the newer cheap plastic ones do.

I am not speaking from experience because I have never done this, but it does work.

It is however illegal, so do not get caught and if the need arises to use it would be wise to dispose of any evidence.
 
#25 ·
Minne-
In the US there is generallyno prohibition against firing flares, however, there will be many state and municipal regulations regarding "fireworks" and "firearms" that might come into play. Nevertheless, there's usually an opportunity to fire flares for testing, i.e., you go to the local fire department or cg station and tell them you want to test some pyros and they'll either walk you outside or tell you how. I've seen a number of cg stations that also keep a small metal dumpster with a slot in the side marked "epired pyrotechnics" for public disposal. (I'm sure they pay to ship them off as hazmat, sure. (G))

Jack-
"We Canucks have no opportunity to fire expired flares. it is illegal."
Well, that's why you folks were granted independence versus we threw old George and his minions out. A little revolution every couple of hundred years is a good thing.
I don't know your provincial or municipal regs, I know Canada has some strict regulatiosn concerning "firearms" in general, but again I'd suggest asking your CG or FD, and let them know you want to see how the pyros actually work. Here, the USCG and others routinely fire them off during demonstrations, i.e. the Safety At Sea seminars.
The first time I fired some off (during an inland fourth of july evening, when pyros of all sorts are incredibly common and ignored, legal or not, as long as you don't burn anything down) my reaction was gee, the fireworks you buy at the roadside stand are brighter and shoot higher. And cost less too.
The Olin 12g flare gun rounds are a cruel joke, best used to amuse any kids in the life raft. The dedicated hand-helds a tad better (unless I'm getting those mixed up again) but still nothing to write home about. There's been a lot of discussion elsewhere about using a "rescue laser" pointer, and sweeping the laser beam across whoever you want to attract. But after you've seen the typical Olins in action, you quickly realize their only purpose is to meet regulations or decorate inshore waters.
If you can't swim home, you want SOLAS pyros. And those are too damned expensive to waste on burglars.
Machete: 10c in China, $20 in US, same product in both places. As long as you stow it in the galley, they'll usually accept it as "not a weapon".
 
#26 ·
HS, he was arrested by local police, so it may have been local ordinance. However, there were ironically home fireworks being shot off the shore, which inspired him to pop an expired flare into the air. The folks shooting the fireworks were not arrested as far as I could tell.

I think the marine police saw the flare, responded and then arrested him when there was no actual emergency. I will have to ask what the actual charge was.
 
#27 ·
Discharging a firearm without the presence of doughnuts?

Seriously though...if he shot it from a flare pistol, and someone reported seeing a "gun", that's all it would take. A firearms violation versus a fireworks launch. Flareguns are often tolerated, but technically fall under firearms regulations.

In some places, especially Miami and Detroit, there are major problems with folks shooting real guns on the 4th and a good real zero tolerance policy. Dummies don't understand, the bullets always COME DOWN and hit something, often someone. So when the cops hear "gun"...can't blame 'em.
 
#28 ·
Shooting a red emergency flare in the USA without prior permission or in an emergency is illegal. The white ones are for practice. “Flare gun” is a misnomer, the correct terminology is “flare launcher”. The USCG, ATF and homeland Security do not consider them to be a “fire arm” (but they do have plenty of rules and restrictions regarding pyrotechnic devices). Every so often our club does a “flare day” where we practice launching flares and smoke off one of our docks. We get USGC permission first (we are located across from one of their major bases). The SOLAS flares are the best, bar none. I have had 100% success with ones that were over 25 years old. The problem is the rule requires replacement if they are over 40 months old. If you have the chance, go to either a Safety at Sea seminar or organize your own flare day. It will be an eye opener. The USCG approved aerial flares are really only good for night time use and the hand held flares sputter and throw off so much slag that you really need to wear a sailing glove. I shudder to think what they would do to a rubber life raft. The 12ga USCG flares are particularly anemic and I went to the 20mm size to get better brightness and hang time.
 
#30 ·
George-
"Shooting a red emergency flare in the USA without prior permission or in an emergency is illegal." Not that I doubt you, but if it is illegal on a federal level, perhaps there's a citation from the USC or CFR you can give us to back that up?

"The USCG, ATF and homeland Security do not consider them [flare guns] to be a "fire arm"" Yeah, but we're not talking about them, we're talking about local, county, and state PDs, and they'll tell you "tell that to the judge" while you're being arrested. In many states a "firearm" is in fact defined in the state laws and usually it is defined alng the lines of "any device which fires, propels, or launches a projectile by any means of stored power, including springs, explosive charges, compressed air or gas..." and yes, you just try carrying one in front of a cop in DC or NYC. It's a GUN in both places, although at least in NYC if you are not displaying it, but transporting it to or from a boat, they'll ignore it. Be seen with it in your hand in a parking lot--and you can tell it to the judge.

And if you think Homeland Security's TSA section is going to allow you to carry it, even unloaded, onto the cabin of a commercial airliner...don't think so. I'd sure like to be there when you try it.
 
#31 ·
I’ve been to enough seminars, training classes and demonstrations to know that firing a red flare in a non emergency situation is illegal. Call me naïve, but when a CG official tells me something, I tend to believe him. If someone wants to find the paragraph and sentence, knock yourself out. I do know that when it comes to California, the state adopted the federal regulations regarding boating. That way local police can do enforcement. I feel sorry for you guys who have local laws that classify your flare launcher as a “gun”. Must be a PITA to have to get finger printed, background checked and wait 30 days before West Marine will sell you a launcher. As for using one in the commission of a crime – well that too, is beyond my scope of experience. But I tell you one thing, I wouldn’t pull even a squirt gun on an Oakland Ca cop. Heck, I wouldn’t even reach into my pocket to pull out a stick of gum. As to TSA, I have done my fair share of traveling with inflatable vests and flares. And like their regulations say, flares are forbidden in the cabin of the aircraft.
 
#32 · (Edited)
"Must be a PITA to have to get finger printed, background checked and wait 30 days before West Marine will sell you a launcher."
No PITA, that's where the authorities are very frank about saying they will and do turn a blind eye as long as the flare gun is kept to a "boating" context. Is that itself illegal? Sure. But that's the official policy, ignore the conflict of the laws when and if the context says "pyro" rather than "handgun".
That's not unusual, you can openly carry a screwdriver and hammer--but they become illegal burglary tools or weapons when used or carried during the commission of the right crimes.
" As to TSA, I have done my fair share of traveling with inflatable vests and flares. And like their regulations say, flares are forbidden in the cabin of the aircraft. " Then you should know, the FAA and TSA officially say the vest can come in the cabin. But as matter of policy, the TSA inspector at the airport sometimes will not allow it. Don't try to bring one through LGA or SeaTac, they tend to be the among pickiest.
And you're not reading what I'm writing: I didn't say the FLARES were prohibited, I said you wouldn't be allowed to carry an unloaded, i.e. empty, flare LAUNCHER into the cabin. Not the flares, just the launcher. It's back to being a "GUN" and if you try to carry it through LaGuardia, you'll be detained or arrested.
"Tell it to the judge."

As to the USCG knowing whether there are magical federal regulations prohibiting the firing of a red pyro? No, their expertise is in marine regulations, not federal law in general. USCG regulations often apply to vessel owners and operators--but not landlubbers standing ashore. If red pyros were generally illegal, the millions of red roman candles sold LEGALLY by licensed pyro businesses every year wouldn't happen. Think about it. Those stores are heavily regulated in the states where they do legally exist. If they can't cite a regulation--they just might be misinformed. Or, you may be confusing the context. Like "flares" versus "empty flare gun". Two totally different things.
 
#33 ·
I thought that we were talking about the marine emergency flares? Shooting the red ones in a non emergency or without prior approval is forbidden. All I know about aerial fireworks is that they too, are forbidden to the general public in California. If we can keep to marine pyrotechnical devices, then I can contribute. Roman candles and such is not my area of expertise (although I used to hold a Class A Explosives License back in my mining days). To be specific, Marine Emergency Flares and their launchers are forbidden in the cabin of the aircraft, but are allowed to be carried in checked baggage. The reason for the ATF regulation that the launchers must be painted orange or a combination of orange and white is to distinguish them from a “real” hand gun. Good to know about Sea Tac and LaGuardia TSA not being up on their own regulations concerning inflatable life vests. You can add the clowns at LAX International terminal to your list. I have had no problem with my vest as carry-on at SFO, San Jose, Honolulu, San Diego, Cabo, PV, St. George, Madrid, and Las Palmas. Flares go in checked baggage and I do carry a copy of the TSA regs when I travel just in case.
 
#34 ·
Good to know about Sea Tac and LaGuardia TSA not being up on their own regulations concerning inflatable life vests. You can add the clowns at LAX International terminal to your list. I have had no problem with my vest as carry-on at SFO, San Jose, Honolulu, San Diego, Cabo, PV, St. George, Madrid, and Las Palmas.
As an aside, I carry a copy of the airline web page indicating that I can carry an inflatable with an extra cartridge. Just make sure that you declare you are carrying it. Mine goes into checked luggage.
 
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