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Interesting Sailboats

3M views 7K replies 205 participants last post by  tdw 
#1 · (Edited)
Sirius 32, Sirius 35

THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out). Recent designs out of production are also admissible.

Modern boat designs and modern one off, if interesting.

Classical boats and traditional boats.

Small cruisers (less than 35ft)

Seezunge 27ft: PG1-PT9

Hanse 325: PG19-PT185;

Presto 30 : 33-326; 33-327; 34-331; 34-333; 55-543; 55-544;

Tess Yachts: 37-366; 38-373;

Tess 28 Magnum: 37-369; 38-371;

Delphia 28: 38-373;

Vancouver 27/28 : 42-412; 72-717;

Cruisers between 35ft and 49ft


Catalina 355 : 31-306;

RM sailboats: PG5-PT41; 5-42

RM1050: PG5-PT46; 5-47; 5-48;

RM 1060: PG8-PT77; 8-78; 8-79; 8-80; 9-81; 30-295; 40-400; 79-786;

RM 1200: PG9-PT84; 9-85; 19-184; 20-191; 20-192; 41-404; 42-414; 42-418; 43-425; 43-426; 69-688;

RM 1350: PG9-PT82; 55-549; 95-943;

Morris Yachts: PG7-PT61

Bavaria 36: PG19-PT188; 19-190; 20-196;

Bavaria 40: PG10-PT95; 28-278; 29-281; 29-282; 29-283; 29-286; 32-316; 36-356; 51-502; 51-507; 52-518; 53-527; 53-532;

Bavaria 40s: 69-685; 78-775;

Bavaria 45: PG10-PT96; 19-190;

Rustler Yachts: PG11-PT104;

Jeanneau 409: PG11-PT103: 11-106; 30-298; 30-299; 36-356; 51-502; 51-504; 51-505; 51-509; 52-513; 52-514; 52-515; 52-516; 53-527; 54-532; 57-564; 57-570; 58-571; 58-580; 59-581; 59-583; 59-585; 62-614; 74-739; 91-906;

Jeanneau 439: 40-396; 40-397; 59-584; 59-585; 96-956;

Hanse Yachts: 16-154; 16-156; 16-158;

Hanse 400: 81-804;

Bluewater cruising yachts: 21-206

Beneteau Oceanis 37 : 31-306; 31-308; 31-309; 32-314; 55-541;

XC 38: 36-356; 96-954;

Diva 38: 39-386;

Diva 35: 40-391;

Dufour 405: 62-614;

Defline 43: 63-622

Walkabout 43: 93-923; 93-925; 93-927;

Small performance cruisers (less than 35ft)


Performance 32ft test: 29-87;

Sun Fast 3200: PG4-PT33; 4-34; 4-36; 30-293;

Elan 210: 70-691; 70-696; 78-779; 79-781;

Elan 310: PC7-PT64; 7-69; 8-71; 36-356; 41-408;

Quest 33: PG7-PT62

Olea 32: 25-243; 25-245;

First 27.7: 38-373; 38-380; 39-382;

First 30: 30-295; 39-356; 41-408; 55-545; 55-546;

Comet 26: 34-340; 35-345; 35-350; 36-353;

Pacer 30: 36-357;

Django 7.7: 40-399;

Vivace/Evosion 34: 45-442; 45-446; 45-445; 45-446; 45-447; 45-448; 45-449; 45-450; 46-458; 46-460;

Finn Flyer 34: 46-451; 46-453; 60-593;

Salona 34: 46-457;

Heol 7.4: 63-621; 63-622;

Azuree 33: 87-867; 91-902; 91-904;

JPK 10.10: 88-877 ; 88-880; 89-883;

Performance cruisers (between 35ft and 49ft)

Pogo 10.50: PG2-PT20; 3-27; 3-28; 3-30; 4-35; 5-50; 6-51; 6-52; 6-60; 11-101; 11-107; 11-110; 43-425; 44-440; 87-861; 87-867;

Pogo 12.50: PG13-PT125; 20-198; 20-199; 22-214; 27-264; 27-265; 27-269; 32-317; 32-319; 43-425; 43-426; 43-428; 44-432; 44-437; 44-439; 55-546; 55-547; 82-812; 84-831; 87-870;

Este 40: 89-890; 90-893; 90-899;

A35: PG5-PT42; 5-44; 66-660;

A40RC: 92-914;

Hammerhead 35: 64-645

Opium 39: PG5-PT42; 9-85; 9-89; 13-125; 22-220; 22-221; 43-426; 55-547; 86-857;

Aerodyne 35: PG7-PT62

Elan 350: PG7-PT64; 13-24; 13-126; 13-127; 13-128; 14-132; 18-178; 26-255; 36-356; 40-398; 41-405; 57-564; 59-589; 60-591; 72-711; 73-724; 74-738;

Elan 380: 23-223; 25-249; 26-256; 40-398; 59-589; 97-962;

Elan 410: 32-316; 79-784;

JPK 110: PG9-PT85; 10-91

Olea 44: PG10-PT100; 27-268;

Olea Yachts: 25-247;

Dufour 40e: Pg13-Pt125; 32-316; 55-547; 56-558; 56-559; 57-561; 57-562; 57-563; 59-586; 59-588,

Salona 37: 36-359; 41-406;

Salona 41: PG15-PT141; 15-145; 32-316; 36-356; 40-398; 54-538; 57-569; 78-778; 80-796; 80-798; 97-965;

Salona 42: PG15-PT145; 36-359; 40-398; 93-929; 94-932;

Cigale 16: PG15-PT148; 16-152; 17-161; 55-549; 63-625;

Cigale 14: PG17-PT163; 55-549;

Santa Cruz 43: PG17-PT169

Sydney Yachts: PG18-PT171; 18-175;

Sydney GTS 37: 43-423;

Sydney GTS 43: PG18-PT173;

Winner 12.20: PG20-193;

First 40: 31-304; 32-313; 32-316; 35-344; 36-354; 55-546; 55-547;

First 35: 36-356

Dehler 41: 30-296;

Dehler 44: 79-785;

Dehler 45: 36-356; 79-785;

Luffe 40.04: 30-300; 31-301; 31-303;

XP 38: 56-533; 56-544; 56-555; 67-622;

XP 44: 33-325;

Pacer 430: 36-357;

Pacer 376: 36-357; 66-652; 69-683;

Faurby 424: 36-360; 37-361; 37-363; 37-365;

Comfortina 39: 40-395;

J 133: 43-426; 63-620

J 111: 100-993;

Maxi 11: 99-982;

Arcona yachts: 46-456;

Arcona 410: 47-467; 47-468; 47-469; 48-471;

Arcona 430: 48-472;

Arcona 460: 50-495

Finngulf yachts: 46-456;

Varianta 44: 60-594; 60-595; 60-596; 60-597; 60-598; 64-639;

Imagine 53: 63-628;

Zou 40.2: 63-620

Ker 39: 68-676;

Finn-Flyer 42: 77-762;

Azuree 40: 85-842;

Loft 40: 85-848; 85-852;

Vivace 35: 90-895;

Sailing boats over 49ft

Zeydon 60 : PG 12-119;

JP 54: PG18-PT172;

Salona 60: 70-695;

Stadships: PG20-PT193; 20-195;

Pogo 50: 32-318; 32-319;

X-50: 54-537;

Murtic 52: 54-537;

Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats

Sirius 32: PG1-PT1

Sirius 35: PG1-PT1; 1-10; 2-18; 50-491; 50-492; 60-559; 60-599;

Sirius 31: PG1-PT5; 2-17; 36-356;

Regina 35: 48-478;

Regina 40: PG11-PT104; 49-481; 49-483;

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Luffe 43DS: PG12-PT111; 12-115; 50-494;

Noordkaper 40: PG14-pt139;

Noordkaper yachts: PG16-PT155

Nordship 36: 30-297; 49-482;

Nordship 38: 49-482; 49-490;

Paulo's pilot house I: 38-376; 39-381; 39-383; 39-384;

Paulo's pilot house II: 69-682

Lyman & Morse 45: 38-379;

CR 38DS: 48-477; 48-478;

CR 40DS: 48-476; 48-478; 48-479; 50-494; 50-496; 50-497; 50-498;

Arcona 40DS: 50-494;

Racers

Figaro 2:pG4-PT36; 4-37; 5-42; 6-52; 6-53; 6-55; 6-56

VOR 70: PG16-PT160; 17-187

Farr 400: 67-661

Soto 40: 96-952;

Lifting keel/centerboarder

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Allures 45: PG10-PT93; 100-996;

Allures yachts: 25-248;

OVNI 425: 23-228;

OVNI 395 : 68-679; 69-690;

J 108: 67-661

Atlantic 43: 68-67

Boreal 44: 97-970; 98-974;

Multihulls till 34ft

Several Trimarans: 28-273;

Multihulls with 34ft and over

Dragonfly yachts: 26-257;

Dragonfly 35: 26-258; 27-261; 27-262;

Dragonfly 1200: 56-551;

Corsair 37: 28-276;

Farrier 39: 28-277;

Challenge 37: 28-278

Hammerhead 34: 29-385;

Hammerhead 54: 29-288; 30-292;

Trimax 10.80: 29-285;

Sig 45: 54-534; 54-539; 54-540;

Gunboat: 56-551

Fusion: 56-551;

Outremer: 56-551;

Tournier: 56-511;

Classical and Traditional boats

Jclass boats: 54-537;

Tofinou 12: 71-703;

Folck boat: 73-727;

Puffin Yachts: PG14-PT135; 14-138; 16-155;

Bestwind 50: PG12-PT116; 14-123;

Bestevaer 53: PG12-PT116;

Bestevaer yachts: PG16-PT155

Cape George 36: 41-410; 42-412;

Marieholm 33 : 42-412;

This list is not actualized. Please use the advanced search engine of the thread with the name of the model and builder. It works, most of the time.

(actualized till PG100) and it will be no more because that gives a lot of work (500 pages now).

Instead I am actualizing the titles and with the right title the thread search engine (not the one on the top of the page bit the one much below that says search thread) on its advanced option works quite well.

Hello,

Melrna posts on Miami Boat show and the comments of Smackdady about the interest of that thread lead me to think that perhaps I could share more information about sailboats I know and find interesting.

I am interested in boat design (interior and sailing performance) and I go each year at least to one of the main European Boat shows and that means basically Dusseldorf, Paris or Hamburg. On these shows you have the opportunity not only to visit the boats of the main and medium size builders but you have also the opportunity to visit the boats of small and sometime family shipyards.

Normally they build very good sailboats and sometimes they have been doing that for decades. The boats are hugely appreciated by their faithful customers but because they don't advertise their boats and there are very few on the used boat market, they pass unnoticed by the majority of the sail community.

The visit to these boats is a very rewarding experience because they are made with passion by true boat lovers and because when you talk to the guy that is on the boat, you are not talking with a dealer, that many times doesn't know much about boats, but with the builder, or the designer.

Even if you are not a buyer they will have real pleasure in talking with someone that really appreciates and understands their work. Those guys really believe in what they are doing and they do it the best way they can, no matter the cost. In a word, they are in love with what they are doing.
Of course, these boats have to be expensive.

This thread will be mainly about these boats, as a way of letting you know about these gems. Let's see if you are interested. I will not post much. If you want to know more you have just to participate and make questions.

The first one it will be the "Sirius". I have had the pleasure to visit several times their boats and to talk with the builders (father and son).

These boats have the best interiors you can find, or at least that I have seen. Not only the quality, but the design and ergonomy are fantastic. You really won't believe you are in a 32ft boat. Just incredible and amazing; Have a look at it:

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin | 32 DS for 2 forecabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | 32 DS 4-berth comfort owner´s cabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Workshop | 32 DS for 2 workshop

Now that the son is in charge they have modernized the outside look of the new boats, they look fantastic not only inside but also outside. The boats sail well and they have clients as far as Japan.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Versions of decks house | You have the choice

Another interesting point is the way they develop new boats. They work with the clients to collect suggestions on the shape and design of the boats. A truly interesting affair, between passionate clients and passionate builders.

Sirius-Werft Plön | 35 DS | Philosophy

Take a good look at their interesting site and if you find the boat interesting, please let me know, I can add some information.

Sirius-Werft Plön | english | Welcome at website of Sirius-Werft Plön

Regards

Paulo
 
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#5,765 ·
The Contest 42 CS looked sharp in the breezy Ft. Lauderdale - Key West race
Took her a while to come thru the fleet in the light going during first half of race but with 25+ knts and 80-90 APW she got her sea legs running
World Premiere boat that was black/gray/gold in color
The black sails with gold design looked a bit odd when reefed and the jib half rolled up
Nice guys showing the boat off at the dock
Carbon rig
Even though last place in IRC and 6 hours behind the Cookson 50 and Carkeek 40 she arrived in style and a lot dryer with the large raised bridgework and a lot more protection behind the dual wheels
 
#5,771 ·
I have no doubt that one of the reason why the Contest 42 won was because it sailed exceptionally well for that type of boat. It takes some balls to take that boat on a true race:D The boat is on the same class of Halberg Rassy and company.;)

The Gunfleet 58 was also a strong contender. I don't like the boat "style" but I has very impressed with its performance on the last ARC. A good cruiser no doubt, personal taste aside.

Regards

Paulo
 
#5,769 · (Edited)
yeah, interesting if true...
still - there is something not kosher with the traveler being screwed to the transom - how is that supposed to work on deep reaches?
the two winches on either side directly in front of the helm is also something not very practical, especially in this configuration where the inner winch is rendered useless because the linefeed is blocked by either the helm or the other winch...

and have a look at the interior - do you see any available space for a fridge?

i know these are just rough renders but it looks weird...

some images of the soler 35FC which is build at the moment:
http://morozov-yachts.com/news.php?view=392
 
#5,789 · (Edited)
Morozov

yeah, interesting if true...
still - there is something not kosher with the traveler being screwed to the transom - how is that supposed to work on deep reaches?
the two winches on either side directly in front of the helm is also something not very practical, especially in this configuration where the inner winch is rendered useless because the linefeed is blocked by either the helm or the other winch...

and have a look at the interior - do you see any available space for a fridge?

i know these are just rough renders but it looks weird...

some images of the soler 35FC which is build at the moment:
Morozov Yachts: Soler-35 Fast Cruiser Hull No.1
That in fact is not a new brand but a kind of auto promotion based on a design series by Morozov, a Russian NA. He had been posting many designs on internet but his designs were not turned in reality many times. His more known and significant work (made real) has nothing new, a motorsailor, kind of "Fisher" style and Atoa, a high latitude sailboat,



not bad but pretty banal (underbody and hull) that took ages to sell and was announced for ages on the internet and magazines. I see also a huge motor yacht (that I didn't new off) and that seems nice.

Morozov Yachts custom yachts for unlimited cruising

Regarding the new Soler series, they are based on 40 class boats but with some oddities and some design that I really don't think it fits, like a 40class boat with a cat cabin that increases windage a lot. Those high cabins are needed on cats but not on monohulls and I don't understand why he uses them on those designs. Even for what he purposed he did not need to have a sopreminent cabin, look for instance for the RM line.

The only one that is actually being made is the 35 and regarding that one I find the hull design too fat on the middle section and as I said, the overall design ugly and out of proportion.

Morozov Yachts: SOLER-35 FC Fast Cruiser

Morozov Yachts: Soler-35 Fast Cruiser Hull No.1

Some of the other Morozov designs, some much more interesting than the Soler series appear now under the name of Teixido & Harrold (including the Soler) but his name never appears there????. I had saw some of those designs posted years ago under the name of Morozov. Take a looK:

teixido_/) harrold yacht design and engineering

Bottom point: some really nice designs (not the Soler:D) but no racing experience nor testing on those hulls so I would reserve my opinion about its effectiveness. Nice drawings means not necessarily efficient hulls but I would say that Morozov deserved a better chance to prove his ideas. Not so easy in Russia:rolleyes:

Regards

Paulo
 
#5,775 ·
Re: SQ 25

Finally, pics of the new SQ25.
Messe: boot-Premieren, Teil III: SQ 25 - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
47k € incl. vat, sailaway, no engine.
So, in price it is not too far from the Elan 210, though I don't think the Elan price includes VAT and definitely not sailaway - e.g., no sails or electronics. But similar boats, in many respects. I would say the SQ25 is more oriented towards cruising - the enclosed marine heads, the wood deck inlays, etc. - than the Elan. And, of course, the SQ25 is a larger boat. Side by side I think I would choose the Elan 210, but I would guess my wife would prefer the SQ25. Looking forward to seeing a sail test by Toby from YW. :)
 
#5,774 ·
European boat of the year 2014 - Beneteau Oceanis 38

More important than to know that the boat was choosen is to know why it was chosen and regarding that I find that the opinion of the different testers is very relevant. Here they are with a "free" translation:

The British from Yachting World:

"By far the most radical and innovative in their group, both in appearance as in their concept, the Beneteau Oceanis 38 designed by Pascal Conq fom Groupe Finot… it has a moderate and easy to handle sail plan a surprisingly lively performance for a boat of this type. The twin rudder give a solid, secure feeling, while the cockpit design allows it to be easily sailed by a small crew. Available as Daysailer , weekenders or cruiser, the Oceanis 38 can be later adapted and upgraded by equippement modules. this multi-tasking interior is a strong and fresh approach of the shipyard, which has often set innovative trends in boat building.

The Dutch from Waterkampioen :

"A great performance from the French shipyard: It has developed a boat that fits to several purposes and that will provide fun. The cockpit and the large swim platform make the yacht very adequate for bathing and living in beautiful spots at anchor. The equipment with their various options that can be adapted from day-sailing to cruising is very special and the most amazing is that all of the combinations work really well. Finally, the Oceanis sails also really well.

The Swiss from Marina.ch :

Beneteau proved that it makes sense to make new design developments even in difficult times. The new Oceanis is more than merely a decorative cosmetic regarding older models. Especially the modular equipment is something new on the market being the the two most compelling versions the Weekender and the Cruiser. Also convincing the bright atmosphere below deck, the layout of the cockpit and the sailing performance.

The Italians from Fare Vela:

As the most innovative boat in the competition, the new Oceanis is a concept that can bring a revolution to the world of touring boats. You can buy a basic version and then change over the years the equipment, adding it or replacing it by omne more adapted to your sailing program and this is the most interesting aspect ….The exterior is not so appealing, yet modern and well thought out but she sails impressively, especially against the wind. Only the price is a bit high, especially if one takes into account the entire building quality…..as always Beneteau is a leader in innovation.

The Austrians from Yacht Revue :

Oceanis 38 , the most innovative boat in this size, it offers a tremendous diversity and plenty of space everywhere. Nice atmosphere inside, a comfortable cockpit, a special layout for cruising with functional Targa bar and impressive sailing performance at a wind speed of more than 20 knots.

The Swedes from Segling :

The concept with three versions - Daysailer, weekender and full cruising boat - is an innovative and interesting idea and the equipment solutions by Nauta Design will amaze you with its simple modernity. The sail performance has proved to be good enough to even face challenging conditions.

The French from Voile and Voiliers:

Oceanis has created with her new loft concept a very special interior. The more interesting thing is not so much the possibility of converting the boat after the purchase but the feeling of a huge open space. The 38 is also easy to sail, roomy, and the hull has plenty of stability and that gives a feeling of security when the wind picks up. Definitely not a race boat, but a boat to have a great time on the water.

The Spanish from Nautica & Yates :

Instead of making a boat on the line with the other cruising boats in the Oceanis line, one in direct competition with the models of its subsidiary Jeanneau the French shipyard enters unexplored territory: Sailing fun, lounge atmosphere at the anchorage, a cockpit that provides lots of socializing and a big swimming platform. The design is attractive, and so far as we could test: it works.

The Deutch from Yacht.de:

Beneteau has opened a new chapter in terms layout and design, in fact, the market leaders provided an interior that looks so huge and bright that you feel you are on a much, much larger boat, it is perfect.. .. Applause for the presentation and color scheme, which gives the interior a special ambience. Probably we will have similar concepts from other shipyards . The sail performance under sail with less than ten knots of wind was not exceptional, even with code 0, typical of wide, heavy touring boats, but the Oceanis showed that it can cope, fully controlled, with harsh conditions (and the twin rudder contributes to that control). Well done! "



 
#5,777 ·
Re: European boat of the year 2014 - Beneteau Oceanis 38

More important than to know that the boat was choosen is to know why it was chosen...
I think I know why the boat was chosen. It is obvious from the second video of the two Paulo posted. And Beneteau marketing is very clever, in this respect. The reason someone will buy this boat is because, as the video makes clear, if you own a new Beneteau Oceanis 38 you are going to have a lot of great sex with a beautiful woman/man, in totally exotic places and in complete comfort. And it will all be totally effortless.

By the end of the video, I was ready to buy one. However, the sailaway price needs to include Justine Mettraux. :D
 
#5,776 · (Edited)
Dehler 38 viewed by the Jury:

The British from Yachting World:
To develop the next generation of modern performance cruiser, Dehler has ignored the current trend to hard chines, double rudders and retractable bowsprit….. The design is unquestionably a Yudel / Vrolijks design. And while it is certainly meant for cruising sailors, he will often be found with equipment and deck layout for ORC and IRC regatta races. Notwithstanding the regatta potential the Dehler is at the same time easy to sail solo or with a short crew use.. All this and the possible rig and keel variations make the Dehler 38 very polyvalent on this competitive class and size.

The Dutch from Waterkampioen :
Dehler is finally back!!. A very nice sailboat very well-designed features, maybe a little dark inside, but with surprisingly good solutions, as we were used to Dehler from the seventies and eighties .... very nice to look at and also a good family boat, the 38 is not specific sailboat, but a very clever combination of good ideas -... a true performance cruiser "

The Swiss from Marina.ch :
The first Dehler, enteirely built in Greifswald, is in a truly positive surprise: Dehler is still Dehler in terms of design, but also on the sailing characteristics. The design is striking and the slender hull does not have pronounced the missing chines.. . ..The Dehler 38 is a great cruiser that will not disappoint also on the race course.

The Norwegians from Seilas:
Dehler was on the target with many right decisions and created a performance boat that will serve many purposes. The Dehler 38 is a great family boat, but also a fast performance cruiser that without being revolutionary or innovative or revolutionary, its nice and sails well.

The Italians from Fare Vela:
If you are looking for an attractive, well-designed and well-performing fast boat for a small family and one at a good price, then the new German boat might be right one. The design is modern and good: the deck layout is consistent and well-adjusted, the interior shows a modern style with some new ideas … Obviously you cannot expect perfect results or material of the highest quality for the contained price, but everything looks stylish and neat.
In what regards sailing the Dehler 38 is a good all-rounder, with a power that can bring joy even in club regattas. But even if you have sporty cruising on the target you should order the complete performance package with both deep keel and Regatta rig. Either way, the Dehler can be regarded as a timeless performance cruiser, a good successor to the Dehler 36…

The Austrians from Yacht Revue :
The Dehler 38 could be the definition of performance cruiser concept: Good looks from the inside out, perfectly functional deck layout, fast sailing in all conditions and a very attractive price.

The French from Voile and Voiliers:
The Dehler 38…. is a fast cruiser with no weak points. Very nice and aggressive look, clever and current layout below deck as well as good performance on the water.

The Spanish from Nautica & Yates :
The Dehler has all you could expect from a a 38-foot performance cruiser or cruiser / racer : We were impressed by its speed and ease of sailing. The handling and maneuverability are well thought out for regatta courses, but cockpit and deck still provide comfort when cruising. Design and building are of high quality while the price is reasonable.

The Deutch from Yacht.de:
While many shipyards were working in this segment of lighter, stiffer, even faster boats while neglecting the comfort, Dehler takes a different approach with their new 38. It is just as nimble as comfortable. This may not be revolutionary, but it gives it a broad appeal and works in practice really very well. The owner can choose between more power thanks to several rig, keel and lightweight options, or equip the boat more to cruising. All this for a price that is hard to beat. A great comeback for a brand that has passed through many hands and finally seems to have the original Dehler DNA. "

Well, not very exciting as a performance cruiser but highly valued as a fast cruiser for the family. The Italians point out very rightly what I had been sayng about this boat: that for this one to be a performance cruiser it has to be outfitted with a huge number of very expensive extras, from epoxy hull to taller rig, deeper keel and so on...and then is not "cheap" anymore but much more expensive. This in the lower end version it is more a sports family cruiser than a performance cruiser and not one suited for racing.

It seems that everybody was in accordance in choosing this boat but I did not posted some Jury opinions that were....humm not very clear, for instance the Danish member mumbled about this boat being slower than the much smaller XP 33 (also in competition) and the Swede jury that the best it says about the boat was : "a yacht that is exceptionally free of annoying errors. " :D

Not very exciting for a performance cruiser but (on its standard version) certainly one of the best family cruisers on the market and a fast and beautiful one.

It seems to me that the categories should be more clear and more numerous: Family cruisers seems alright for me as well as performance cruisers but it is needed another one for cruiser-racers, like the Xp33 or the MAT 10.10, faster boats pointed more for racing at high levell then cruising but that can be also used as a a very fast cruising boat. A truly polyvalent boat.

Sure a performance cruiser is also a polyvalent boat but here we are talking about club racing and more or less extensive cruising potential, not about top racing.

Don't take me wrong, I love the Dehler 38 and now that I am becoming old, It might very well suit me as a cruising boat but it seems unfair to me that a boat like this one could be compared for example with a Sydney 37. How can you judge and compare boats that are aiming to so different objectives and market public, one primarily aimed for cruising and some club racing and the other aimed for top racing and some non extensive cruising?



 
#5,783 ·
More on M.A.T - the 6.5

By one of those odd coincidences, I have had occasion to race on one of the M.A.T Mini 6.50's:

M.A.T. Sailing Yachts - M.A.T. 6.5

More specifically, I have sailed on several occasions on the former CAN 415, when it was based in British Columbia, including the Swiftsure Race in 2006. What's rather funny is that I knew it was built in Turkey but didn't realize it was built at M.A.T until today. Great boat, albeit with rudder issues that took a long time to sort out - indeed, not sure they were ever sorted.

Boat also did the Around-Vancouver-Island Race, I think in 2004 or 2005. The owner at that time had the goal of doing the Transat, but sponsorship money never came together as planned. Pity, as he is a good sailor, with Open 50 experience, as well.
 
#5,784 · (Edited)
Solo and short crewed racing

By one of those odd coincidences, I have had occasion to race on one of the M.A.T Mini 6.50's:

M.A.T. Sailing Yachts - M.A.T. 6.5

More specifically, I have sailed on several occasions on the former CAN 415, when it was based in British Columbia, including the Swiftsure Race in 2006. What's rather funny is that I knew it was built in Turkey but didn't realize it was built at M.A.T until today. Great boat, albeit with rudder issues that took a long time to sort out - indeed, not sure they were ever sorted.

Boat also did the Around-Vancouver-Island Race, I think in 2004 or 2005. The owner at that time had the goal of doing the Transat, but sponsorship money never came together as planned. Pity, as he is a good sailor, with Open 50 experience, as well.
That is really sad since the costs of solo racing on a mini is really small and the return big....I mean for the ones that follow the races and I guess the Americans don't.

Maybe that is changing but I guess it will take time in the US. In Great Britain, even with all conservatism regarding sailing they are changing fast and solo and short crew are becoming much more popular. The Vendee Globe is very big now also in GB and they are desperate to win it. Just look at this movie:



and it is not only in what regards open class boats and the Figaro class but also on IRC. As we all know the last Fastnet was won on compensated by a duo crew but maybe you have not noticed the number of duo crews. Have a look:

Sailing Results

and I bet that this year that percentage will increase again as has been increasing with each year.

Regards

Paulo
 
#5,791 ·
European boat of the year: Saphire 27

I had already have posted about this boat and was impressed with its speed, concept and with what the testers said about it...but it seemed that it was only me since the boat did not raised many comments, maybe because it is not a boat designed on the line of Open boats.

It is a Claudio Maletto design, Claudio is a specialist in ORCI so this boat should do very well in compensated, even IRC, probably much better than the Seascape 27.

Because it is built by Delphia and sold by the Internet they have managed to keep the price really down for the quality.

It seems that this was not only the boat where they had more fun sailing as well as the one everybody was in agreement regarding this to be the best boat in its class.

Take a look:

The British from Yachting World:

It is designed for the racing-oriented part of the market, but it also offers the possibility of day sailing or weekend cruising and it proved to be much easier to sail, even with a small than what its sporty looks at first sight suggests.
The design of Claudio Maletto is typical of a modern fast racer… she goes so close to the wind as a witch. Their clever operating concept for pods and blocks, the smooth operation of the large sail plan allows, is another example of good design. Details like these cost money and yet their price appears, taking into consideration the carbon rig and other points, very attractive.

The Dutch from Waterkampioen :

A powerfull sailboat with a modern appearance. The concept behind it is very charming and the rather weak interior finish is partially forgiven by the T-keel and carbon mast that makes it a sports boat, but one easy to sail. And you can tow it behind the car to, to a regatta …

The Norwegians from Seilas:

This is not a typical family cruiser, but will definitely attract adrenaline junkies. Today's kids like it extreme, and if you want to make a good GoPro video from sailing vacation, this is the right boat. It is not only fun when planing downwind, it also points surprisingly close to the wind.

The Swiss from Marina.ch :

Michael Tobler, a Swiss businessman and racing sailor wanted to create a boat with a different program, a boat that would be as good for racing as to sail with the family and worked the program with the Italian NA, Claudio Maletto. Delphia, the Poland shipyard, built the boat. The result is a compelling mix of great sailing fun and family-friendly ease of use.

The Italians from Fare Vela:

It is a sporty agile eight-meter boat : on the water, easy to handle, even when the wind picks up a boat on which you have not to be an expert to have fun with the big gennaker. With it on the boat starts to plan from 11 to 12 knots. It's a flexible concept, with the standard version you can participate in races, and if you add some extras, the boat can be turned in a small cruiser with four bunks, galley and toilet. The Saphire is well equipped with a carbon mast, T-Kiel and powerful sail plan. Because the boat has not a backstay it can have a big square-top mainsail. The hull follows a shallow U-frame with pronounced chimes that come from the bow to the transom. It is very easy to handle, at sea and on land. You do not need a crane to launch the boat into the water, and on top of that a well-organized system puts the mast in place.

The Austrians from Yacht Revue :

The perfect compromise between a racer and a Daysailer Cruiser. Main Features: Easy and quick to sail in all conditions, good layout, interesting rig with a powerful mainsail, one-design concept and habitable cabin.


The Danish from BadNyt:

Nice little boat with impressive performance even if is handled carelessly. Below deck no real expansion concept and the seating for the helmsman is uncomfortable. It's great fun to sail this boat mainly due to its easiness, good stability and strong, inspired by catamarans, rig concept. This boat has the potential to be a one class for specific events such as the German Bundesliga or at the Danish Sport Boat League.

The Swedes from Segling :

Buy the Swiss sapphire 27 online, and you'll get it on a trailer delivered to your home. That's the brand new sales concept, but it is also the boat that will put a smile on your face when you sail with it! Regardless of whether you are alone or the whole family , there is fun for all. Vacuum injection process and an electric drive also mean less pollution…

The French from Voile and Voiliers:

A clear victory of the Saphire that it is not so special in itself, but does exactly what it's made to do: a really fast little boat that gives a lot of pleasure to the crew. The hull likes sailing in a light wind and excels with the right breeze. The boat is also easy to trailer and to rig. And you have enough space inside in the boat, although it is rather narrow and that is needed because plenty will want to come as crew. Regatta fun, guaranteed!

The Deutch from Yacht.de:

To win this trophy with the first model it is something that very few builders had managed in the history of European Yacht of the Year and that's why this victory tells a lot about the Saphires 27: A stunning, light, strong boat that will give plenty of fun on inland lakes or along the coast. It was not surprising that the Saphire sails exceptionally well in light wind, better than most of the larger Performance Cruisers, but she was also very balanced and controlled in gusty 5-6 Beaufort. On the whole: A great boat!



 
#5,793 ·
Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

I had already have posted about this boat and was impressed with its speed, concept and with what the testers said about it...but it seemed that it was only me since the boat did not raised many comments, maybe because it is not a boat designed on the line of Open boats.

It is a Claudio Maletto design, Claudio is a specialist in ORCI so this boat should do very well in compensated, even IRC, probably much better than the Seascape 27.

Because it is built by Delphia and sold by the Internet they have managed to keep the price really down for the quality.

It seems that this was not only the boat where they had more fun sailing as well as the one everybody was in agreement regarding this to be the best boat in its class.

Take a look:

The British from Yachting World:

It is designed for the racing-oriented part of the market, but it also offers the possibility of day sailing or weekend cruising and it proved to be much easier to sail, even with a small than what its sporty looks at first sight suggests.
The design of Claudio Maletto is typical of a modern fast racer… she goes so close to the wind as a witch. Their clever operating concept for pods and blocks, the smooth operation of the large sail plan allows, is another example of good design. Details like these cost money and yet their price appears, taking into consideration the carbon rig and other points, very attractive.

The Dutch from Waterkampioen :

A powerfull sailboat with a modern appearance. The concept behind it is very charming and the rather weak interior finish is partially forgiven by the T-keel and carbon mast that makes it a sports boat, but one easy to sail. And you can tow it behind the car to, to a regatta …

The Norwegians from Seilas:

This is not a typical family cruiser, but will definitely attract adrenaline junkies. Today's kids like it extreme, and if you want to make a good GoPro video from sailing vacation, this is the right boat. It is not only fun when planing downwind, it also points surprisingly close to the wind.

The Swiss from Marina.ch :

Michael Tobler, a Swiss businessman and racing sailor wanted to create a boat with a different program, a boat that would be as good for racing as to sail with the family and worked the program with the Italian NA, Claudio Maletto. Delphia, the Poland shipyard, built the boat. The result is a compelling mix of great sailing fun and family-friendly ease of use.

The Italians from Fare Vela:

It is a sporty agile eight-meter boat : on the water, easy to handle, even when the wind picks up a boat on which you have not to be an expert to have fun with the big gennaker. With it on the boat starts to plan from 11 to 12 knots. It's a flexible concept, with the standard version you can participate in races, and if you add some extras, the boat can be turned in a small cruiser with four bunks, galley and toilet. The Saphire is well equipped with a carbon mast, T-Kiel and powerful sail plan. Because the boat has not a backstay it can have a big square-top mainsail. The hull follows a shallow U-frame with pronounced chimes that come from the bow to the transom. It is very easy to handle, at sea and on land. You do not need a crane to launch the boat into the water, and on top of that a well-organized system puts the mast in place.

The Austrians from Yacht Revue :

The perfect compromise between a racer and a Daysailer Cruiser. Main Features: Easy and quick to sail in all conditions, good layout, interesting rig with a powerful mainsail, one-design concept and habitable cabin.


The Danish from BadNyt:

Nice little boat with impressive performance even if is handled carelessly. Below deck no real expansion concept and the seating for the helmsman is uncomfortable. It's great fun to sail this boat mainly due to its easiness, good stability and strong, inspired by catamarans, rig concept. This boat has the potential to be a one class for specific events such as the German Bundesliga or at the Danish Sport Boat League.

The Swedes from Segling :

Buy the Swiss sapphire 27 online, and you'll get it on a trailer delivered to your home. That's the brand new sales concept, but it is also the boat that will put a smile on your face when you sail with it! Regardless of whether you are alone or the whole family , there is fun for all. Vacuum injection process and an electric drive also mean less pollution…

The French from Voile and Voiliers:

A clear victory of the Saphire that it is not so special in itself, but does exactly what it's made to do: a really fast little boat that gives a lot of pleasure to the crew. The hull likes sailing in a light wind and excels with the right breeze. The boat is also easy to trailer and to rig. And you have enough space inside in the boat, although it is rather narrow and that is needed because plenty will want to come as crew. Regatta fun, guaranteed!

The Deutch from Yacht.de:

To win this trophy with the first model it is something that very few builders had managed in the history of European Yacht of the Year and that's why this victory tells a lot about the Saphires 27: A stunning, light, strong boat that will give plenty of fun on inland lakes or along the coast. It was not surprising that the Saphire sails exceptionally well in light wind, better than most of the larger Performance Cruisers, but she was also very balanced and controlled in gusty 5-6 Beaufort. On the whole: A great boat!
I clicked through the "Design Your Saphire 27" process and came up with a sail away price of about $118,000 USD before shipping to the U.S. East Coast. Add another $3,000 for that, plus U.S. import duties, and the boat will set you back something like $125,000 or so. That would include trailer, sails, electrical, sail / boat covers, marine head / partial bulkhead, and instruments (but no motor). Instinctively that seems like a lot of money to me, though still quite a bit less than a J/88. Pricing the Seascape 27 is harder, since they don't make that information readily available, but as soon as the first boat arrives in the U.S. I hope to find out more. I suspect the two boats are comparably priced.

It's definitely an intriguing boat, but I would choose the Seascape 27 for what I think would be its stronger offshore capabilities. Even though the reviewers feel the Saphire 27 is a very strong boat, I have a high degree of confidence in Sam Manuard. :D
 
#5,792 · (Edited)
Design - Inverted bows

I have been talking about inverted bows on another thread but it is here that it makes sense to discuss them.

I will post some of the stuff I had posted elsewhere. They seem to me the next boat revolution after beam being brought back, resulting in large transoms even in not necessarily beamy boats.

No, they are not a fashion, they have a purpose and that's diminishing wave drag through a better wave penetration. Modern inverted bows were designed to meet strong sea conditions (with significant sized waves) and to be more efficient on those conditions. The inverted bow shape reduces pitch and speed loss in waves diminish slamming and bow impact, reducing stress in that area reducing the probability of damage in extreme weather..

An inverted bow does not result necessarily in a lower buoyancy at the bow. That depends of the bow design and it is possible to have a bigger buoyancy with a wave piercing bow than with a conventional one. The design would have to be a far more complex one but I believe that in the future we will see bows wit a rounded submersed shape, coming backwards and becoming thinner almost till the top where you have to add some kind of wingless to deflect and prevent the water to came rushing backwards. that will have also the advantage to create some lift.

Here, a motorboat with that type of deflectors I was imagining (it seems somebody has already invented it:D):





That way we can add the advantages of a rounded bow in what regards superior hull form stability and bigger buoyancy, specially needed with big transom boats going close upwind without, the disadvantages of a substantially increase wave drag (upwind) in difficult conditions.

Regarding offshore sailboats the inverted bows were first used on the new generation of racing multihulls namely the trimarans that were designed to beat the absolute solo circumnavigation record. You cannot do that with a sailboat that is not seaworthy since they will cross the worse seas on the planet. I am talking about Thomas Coville and Francis Joyon boats and they have done that successfully, at least Joyon. Coville is at the sea trying to beat Joyon circumnavigation record:





Since then all new built ocean racer trimarans were built with inverted bows:

Here the Prince de Bretagne:



Here Vibac Paprec:



Or here, Banque Populaire:



Many offshore cruising cats use already inverted bows:











and racing offshore monohulls start to use them too:







I bet that in less than two years a substantial number of offshore performance cruisers will be using them too, for a good reason: If well designed they are not a liability in what regards seaworthiness and improve performance. For now they are still very few. This is one of the first performance cruisers with an inverted bow, the beautiful and fast Neo 400:



 
#5,798 ·
Reversed bows.



The Hydroptere comes from the past (1994) and it is a design that has been continually upgraded. Both amas (lateral floaters) have already inverted bows and as all new contemporary racing trimarans, the development project previews also an inverted bow on the main hull as well as a rigid wing. As you know the project has run out of funding on the last years and that is what explains the delay in upgrading the boat.

Some pictures, the first one comparing the existent with the project from some years ago and the last one with the last development:







I hope they found the money to go ahead with the new boat that should be miles ahead from the older one. In fact the new boat makes the previous version look quite old;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#5,796 ·
Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

I also clicked on options, and arrived at $108k, which I believe is too much for this boat. One thing, when Yacht initially tested the boat, they complained of poor finish quality and too much pressure on the rudder. In the video of the winners, on a different hull, again the comment comes up about finish quality with the comment that those bugs will be ironed out in the future. :confused:
I would wait for the future before clicking the "buy now" button.;)
I was really surprised, that the Django didn't get the nod.
 
#5,799 ·
Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

I also clicked on options, and arrived at $108k, which I believe is too much for this boat. One thing, when Yacht initially tested the boat, they complained of poor finish quality and too much pressure on the rudder. In the video of the winners, on a different hull, again the comment comes up about finish quality with the comment that those bugs will be ironed out in the future. :confused:
I would wait for the future before clicking the "buy now" button.;)
I was really surprised, that the Django didn't get the nod.
The Django 6.70 was a remake of a previous boat (new hull) and a boat more limited on the program and sailing potential. The Saphire 27 just blew their minds with the performance in light wind. Look at the video of the boat testing and you will see the boat outsailing everything, including the bigger performance cruisers. The poor finish regards the interior and it is not particular to this boat but common on boats pointing more towards absolute performance.



This type of boats, narrow with a very high B/D ratio are more expensive to build than beamier boats with a lesser B/D ratio. The efforts on the hull due to the ballast are bigger and the hull has to be stronger. The boat also includes a carbon mast top rigging and good sails and all that is very expensive.

I believe the testers new what they were talking about when they made those remarks about the boat having a good price. There is nothing more expensive than top performance;)

Multitalent Saphire 27 im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin
 
#5,797 ·
Oceanis 38

Regarding the Bene 38, i doubt it will enjoy record sales here in the US. From my conversations with brokers, the 38 is not receiving the warm welcome as they had hoped, but the sales for the Oceanis 37 platinum version are doing very well. The high freeboard, and angular, blocky appearance is most likely too "Euro" (yes, Paulo, EURO, not modern or contemporary!!! :p ) for the US. Also, sailperformance is not an improvement over the O37.
The versatility down below, is what most likely swayed the judges.
I really liked the Winner 9.00 in that category. Would be nice to get the testing notes from the judges for all boats, winner or not.
 
#5,800 · (Edited)
Re: Oceanis 38

Regarding the Bene 38, i doubt it will enjoy record sales here in the US. From my conversations with brokers, the 38 is not receiving the warm welcome as they had hoped, but the sales for the Oceanis 37 platinum version are doing very well. The high freeboard, and angular, blocky appearance is most likely too "Euro" (yes, Paulo, EURO, not modern or contemporary!!! :p ) for the US. Also, sailperformance is not an improvement over the O37.
The versatility down below, is what most likely swayed the judges.
I really liked the Winner 9.00 in that category. Would be nice to get the testing notes from the judges for all boats, winner or not.
Yes, very contemporary, I would say revolutionary for a mass production boat (as the testers pointed out) and yes I did not expect that the boat would sell well in the US: Too conservative sailors:p

But that is good, they can sell the old Oceanis 37 in the states while they will sell the 38 on the rest of the world:D. I believe the boat is going to be a sucess and US sales are not very representative in total sales numbers.





Anyway the Americans need time: When it went out the Oceanis 37 was very modern, a big hit on Europe but not on the States where it took 5 years to get acceptance. I believe the same will happen with the 38.

Regards

Paulo
 
#5,801 · (Edited)
Paulo:
I find your comment that a wave piercing type bow can have more volume forward for a given LOA (I assume) very interesting. Could you please demonstrate that in some definitive manner. Because, I've been thinking about that since you posted the comment and I just can't see how it works without going to some silly distorted shape.

What do you have in mind? And you can skip the vague generalities and stereotyping.
 
#5,803 ·
Bob maybe I did not have been clear and its good that you ask since it helps clarification. I did not mean that regarding LWL but regarding Hull length that is normally measure at the deck (well it seems not anymore:)). What happens his that when an inverted bow is used on a modern boat, hull length at the deck level is not reduced but the bow, instead of coming down almost vertically or very slightly backwards, extends itself forward at water level. that results in an increased volume.

 
#5,805 · (Edited)
Here the most used dimensions regarding lenght are Hull Length, LOA and LWL.

The Hull length is not necessarily the LOD since many times the transom is bigger than the deck. What I mean is that when you use an inverted bow the Hull lenght that normally is measured from the beginning of the bow on the deck (where the stay is fixed) will not be measured from there anymore but from the forward tip of the bow, even if for design purposes, regarding the deck, rig and boat interior what counts is LOD or the interior space in the case of a very inclined bow.

For a given purpose you will not be designing a smaller boat on the deck and interior space when using an inverted bow instead of a vertical or slightly inclined one, so in fact you will get more buoyancy using an inverted one.

This was what I meant to say. Of course if you maintain hull length you will have not only less buoyancy on the bow but also a smaller boat not only on LOD but also in interior volume and space and what makes sense when talking about a similar sized boat is interior space not LOA.

Better with a design. Here we have the same boat that has originally an inverted bow:



If a more traditional bow was used the bow buoyancy would be smaller for the same LOA:



Regards

Paulo
 
#5,807 · (Edited)
Paulo:
That cryptic illustration proves nothing. I wouild have to see how much deck each example had forward and some sections thru the area.

If you drop the "weave piercing (which I doubt) bow and just use a straight stem i.e. plumb stem, you can flare the deck out more and gain a lot of volume.

No, for a given LOA, as measured in the standard method, you DO NOT get more volume forward with a wave piercing bow. You get less and that is the whole point of the shape.

I've been drawing reverse bows for years.
 
#5,808 · (Edited)
Paulo:
That cryptic illustration proves nothing.....

No, for a given LOA, as measured in the standard method, you DO NOT get more volume forward with a wave piercing bow. You get less and that is the whole point of the shape.
...
It seems pretty clear to me. At red you have the extra volume that is added with the inverted bow.

PCP;1339993 said:
Here we have the same boat that has originally an inverted bow:



If a more traditional bow was used the bow buoyancy would be smaller for the same LOA:

It seems we do not have the same opinion about this:).

Regards

Paulo
 
#5,813 · (Edited)
Yes of course but that is not what I am saying. If you look at the two drawings and what I said:



"If a more traditional bow was used the bow buoyancy would be smaller for the same LOA":

[/quote]

You will see that we are not talking about the same thing. I am talking about the same LOA and LOD and you are talking about hull length.

In fact I think that your boat with the conventional interior even with the same hull length has in fact a superior interior volume (we can see that on the plan, on the forward part), in one word is bigger and I have said that previously:

"For a given purpose you will not be designing a smaller boat on the deck and interior space when using an inverted bow instead of a vertical or slightly inclined one, so in fact you will get more buoyancy using an inverted one.

This was what I meant to say. Of course if you maintain hull length you will have not only less buoyancy on the bow but also a smaller boat not only on LOD but also in interior volume and space and what makes sense when talking about a similar sized boat is interior space not LOA."


Maybe after all we are not disagreeing;)

One of the biggest advantages that I saw in an inverted bow is the possibility of keeping on the waterline a more rounded profile (like they are doing now on the Open boats) but having a shape on the superior sections that will offer less drag to waves, dissipating better the energy. Of course it will be complex because it is also needed to provide a shape (on the top) that will took away the spray from the deck. The more rounded shape at waterline will increase in much the buoyancy and volume (a bit like on the bath tube bow) but an inverted shape can provide a better wave penetration than on the bathtube bow. Interesting stuff in my opinion. I believe we are going to see on the next years some funny looking bows on race boats and performance cruisers:D

Regards

Paulo
 
#5,815 ·
Flying Tiger

Nice boats:):

Flying Tiger Boats

The difference is that while this is an American Company making boats in China, Fareast is a Chinese company making high quality boats, the first one.

By the way, have a look here:

Langfahrt: Einblicke in eine Blauwasseryacht - Panorama | YACHT.DE

Lots of pictures with nice comments.

The Aluminium boat you designed and was made in Holland is today a famous boat in Germany due to the new owners that are very popular cruisers.

 
#5,816 ·
Thanks a lot Paulo!
I don't speak German so I have no idea what the article says. My son speaks German and I'll see him on Sunday. I'll see if he can translate. That's a great photo. I truly appreciate you calling this to my attention. I have communicated with the owners but I know nothing about them. Maybe one day I'll be known in Germany. I really am a huge Wagner fan.
 
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