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HMS Bounty in trouble...

278K views 2K replies 105 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 ·
The HMS Bounty is a tall ship that was built in Nova Scotia in 1961 for the MGM movie "Mutiny on the Bounty", starring Marlon Brando...she appears to be in trouble from Hurricane Sandy.

From ABC News:
2:55 AM EDT: Coast Guard spokesman David Weydert tells ABC News, "The Coast Guard received notification that the sailing vessel HMS Bounty was in distress. We responded by sending out a C-130 aircraft and we're currently monitoring the situation."

And the ships website confirms she is in harms way:
TallShipBounty.org

I sure hope this story has a happy ending.
 
#37 ·
Thinking about it, had the captain run East to dodge the hurricane he would have had fewer options all the way around. If the storm had hooked north then east, he'd have had to run to the Azores for a safe harbor. I don't know how fast the Bounty could go, but if the captain thought that was the best option let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he thought of it and then chose not to for good reason.

Going South to the west of the storm gives him the option of ports, but in his case the storm caught him with nothing but NC shoals on the lee. Can't turn north due to the northerly headwind. Can't turn east because storm intensity increases in that direction. Nowhere to go at that point because the storm is sitting where he needs to go for deep water. He has to go South and ride the northerly wind looking for a place to hide or wait for the storm to pass.

Sounds like the captain did what he could and the vessel just couldn't get him there.
 
#38 ·
Since we can't interview the captain, maybe ever, we only have speculation. But one thing has been nagging me: The decision to head out to sea to save the boat (if that was the reason to leave port) meant someone considered the boat more valuable than human life. I can understand military vessels, which are constantly being maintained and have a well-trained, professional crew aboard. History shows the odds are substantially in their favor. But anything else, I just don't get.

Again and again we see people making decisions that put the lives of others in danger. There was another option, stay in port and hope for the best. No loss of human life, guaranteed. Now two are probably gone.
 
#42 · (Edited)
If this ship was in a state of ill repair, it was he captain's responsibility to refuse to risk the lives of others in such a vessel...period. Hope the next pilot that flies the 737 you're aboard refuses to fly it if he knows something is unsafe. If this thing was a rot-bucket, bringing trusting kids aboard was unconscionable.
 
#43 · (Edited)
That's a very good point. If the crew were indeed kids then there's really no possible way to defend going to sea. From the reports I've read, it has not been mentioned that the crew were kids. I have read that this ship is often used for that, but my understanding is that this ship was just pulled from drydock for repairs. I was under the impression that a professional crew was bringing her to St. Pete


If this were professional crew, they could have refused to sail unless they were in agreement they had a sound plan. Professional crew aren't conscripts.

If these were kids, then I have to wonder why the parents allowed them to go. That's a very different scenario.
 
#51 ·
That's a very good point. If the crew were indeed kids then there's really no possible way to defend going to sea. From the reports I've read, it has not been mentioned that the crew were kids. I have read that this ship is often used for that, but my understanding is that this ship was just pulled from drydock for repairs. I was under the impression that a professional crew was bringing her to St. Pete

If this were professional crew, they could have refused to sail unless they were in agreement they had a sound plan. Professional crew aren't conscripts.

If these were kids, then I have to wonder why the parents allowed them to go. That's a very different scenario.
Thought I read either in news blurbs or in this thread that some students were aboard. I certainly HOPE there were none.
 
#44 ·
A couple of other things to consider.

This boat was built as a movie prop. It is likely that the investors didn't build the boat to the same standards as a real sea-going ship...the original, even though is was built in another day, was likely more seaworthy. It was built in 1962 of wood, which also means that if it didn't get regular, expensive, and intensive upkeep, it was likely not all that seaworthy at this time vs. when it was newer.

If this boat was in CT/NY on Thursday, the storm was already on it's way. Given the storm size, which has been highly advertised, there was no way that the boat wasn't going to experience storm conditions, and possible hurricane conditions.

The boat had a lot of freeboard, and it is possible that while they may have intended to stay offshore of Cape Hatteras, the winds of the approaching hurricane would have been from east initially and they may have been gradually loosing ground from intended track due to excessive leeway, especially if engines weren't sufficiently powerful.

When you are in bad storms, because of way the waves and wind are attacking the vessel, it is often that you have to pick a course and speed other than intended to try to minimize the boat and crew from the pounding of the storm. Such change from intended course would be all the more important once the boat began to give evidence of taking on water.

90 miles off Cape Hatteras isn't that far off shore. Cape Hatteras isn't known as the Graveyard of the Atlantic for nothing.
 
#46 ·
Speaking to BBC Radio 4's PM programme, Lt Kevin Sullivan, command centre chief for the North Carolina coastguard, said the crew were able to keep the ship afloat for most of the night before deciding to abandon ship in the early hours of the morning.

"Our understanding is that as [the crew] were preparing to get into the life rafts the boat suddenly capsized on them," he said. "They had to swim clear of the boat and try to get in the life rafts from there."

He said it appeared two crew members had not made it into the life rafts. The 14 who did were later picked up by coastguard helicopters and suffered only minor injures.


Here you can see a movie:

BBC News - HMS Bounty abandoned amid Hurricane Sandy

Apparently it is not the first time that they take the ship to really bad weather. This was taken in 2010:

 
#47 ·
I saw a Coast Guard rescue video that was said to be one of those rescued. The person in the basket was wearing a survival suit. Reports are the two missing were also wearing survival suits.

Is it normal for a vessel to carry survival suits for all the crew? I don't know that was the case but, three for three?

Hats off to the pararescuers. Seeing the survivor hoisted up in the basket with the pararescuer still in the water, then seeing him disappear in the waves...:eek: I hope the people they rescued appreciate them risking their lives to save them.
 
#48 · (Edited)
According to the workboat.com website the boat was just relaunched at Boothbay Harbor Shipyard 10/18/12 (posted 10/22/12) after some routine maintenance. There is a video of the launch and some video of the Bounty at sea in some heavy weather. Seems like they got pretty far south quick. They have been talking about Sandy for quite awhile. Something does not make sense.

HMS Bounty launched at Boothbay Harbor Shipyard - WorkBoat.com
 
#52 ·
According to the workboat.com website the boat was just relaunched at Boothbay Harbor Shipyard 10/22/12 after some routine maintenance. There is a video of the launch and some video of the Bounty at sea in some heavy weather. Seems like they got pretty far south quick. They have been talking about Sandy for quite awhile. Something does not make sense.

HMS Bounty launched at Boothbay Harbor Shipyard - WorkBoat.com
Looks like in the video from an earlier sail they were heeling over to 45 degrees or so. Do these ships rely on form stability more than a keeled sailboat? Just wondering if they would have been getting worried with heeling over that much.
 
#56 · (Edited)
The original square-riggers were either workboats like whalers or men-o-war. They were loaded to the gills with ballast. They had extra chain, rope, cannon, powder, shot, sails, huge supplies of water, food, and supplies, all stuffed as low as possible and balanced carefully to trim the ship so it would sail well. They had to carry supplies for every contingency since they were likely to be out for many months at a time. Unloaded, they are pretty obviously top-heavy. A couple of 2000# diesels is some weight but nothing compared to a fully loaded, fully manned 17th century square-rigger. These boats also made tons of leeway. Going up on a lee shore was a common occurrence. With no keel to speak of, captains had to give land masses much more room than boats of today. This boat may not have had much control over how far they were from shore.
 
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#58 ·
1 recovered 1 still missing.... Claudene was the one quoted by her mother in the early report from CBC that she had phoned home "just in case something happened"

PORTSMOUTH, Va. - The Coast Guard recovered the body of a woman and continues to search for a man missing in the Atlantic Ocean approximately 90 miles southeast of Hatteras, N.C., Monday.

Recovered was:

•Claudene Christian, 42
Missing is:

•Robin Walbridge, 63
A crew aboard an MH-60 Jayhawk helicopter from Coast Guard Air Station Elizabeth City, N.C., located Christian who was unresponsive, hoisted her into the helicopter and took her to Albemarle Hospital in Elizabeth City.

UPDATE: Coast Guard rescues 14, recovers 1, continues search for 1 from HMS Bounty
 
#62 ·
This gets weirder and weirder. The link I posted to the story about Claudene Christian being a direct descendant of the mate of the original Bounty is no longer working. Instead, the Halifax Chronicle Herald reports:
UPDATED 9:09 p.m.

"Bounty crew member Claudene Christian is in critical condition in an Elizabeth City, N.C., hospital after being found by the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday evening.

An earlier report said Christian, 42, had died.

"She was unresponsive when we located her," coast guard Petty Officer 1st Class Brandon Hill said in an interview around 7:15 p.m. Atlantic time.

Hill said he did not have details as to whether Christian was wearing a survival suit or a life-jacket, adding it was too soon to know all the details.

A helicopter crew searching the waters located Christian, but were still scouring the seas for Robin Walbridge, the captain of the HMS Bounty, which sank earlier Monday."

This must be awful for her family...reported dead then not. I know we are all praying for her recovery...
 
#66 ·
Update, she didn't make it.

Bounty crew member dies, hospital official confirms | The Chronicle Herald

This gets weirder and weirder. The link I posted to the story about Claudene Christian being a direct descendant of the mate of the original Bounty is no longer working. Instead, the Halifax Chronicle Herald reports:
UPDATED 9:09 p.m.

"Bounty crew member Claudene Christian is in critical condition in an Elizabeth City, N.C., hospital after being found by the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday evening.

An earlier report said Christian, 42, had died.

"She was unresponsive when we located her," coast guard Petty Officer 1st Class Brandon Hill said in an interview around 7:15 p.m. Atlantic time.

Hill said he did not have details as to whether Christian was wearing a survival suit or a life-jacket, adding it was too soon to know all the details.

A helicopter crew searching the waters located Christian, but were still scouring the seas for Robin Walbridge, the captain of the HMS Bounty, which sank earlier Monday."

This must be awful for her family...reported dead then not. I know we are all praying for her recovery...
 
#67 ·
The last I had seen earlier was that Ms. Christian had been found in a survival suit but was unresponsive... I took that to mean to wait and there would be further information since that water is going to be cold and sometimes surprising recoveries occur. I'm praying for the best.
 
#68 ·
Yes, there is a saying in Emergency Medicine, "Nobody is dead until they are WARM and dead." It's likely they resuscitated her and managed to get her heart working for a while before resuscitation efforts were terminated.

I mention this because one of us might be at the scene of a cold water drowning where help is not immediately available (ie on our boats). If the drowned person is found, continue trying to get definitive help (get them to a hospital) and if the actually are pulse-less, keep them as cold as possible. People have been resuscitated hours after drowning in cold water.

Another update: There were no children aboard. From the Chronicle link above:
Simonin said the crew members are from all over the U.S. and range in age from 20 to 64. They are trained, experienced and paid sailors, she said. Most of the crew members were in Nova Scotia when the ship visited during this summer's tall ships festival, she added.

MedSailor
 
#69 ·
I just read on AOL, that the CPT Robin Wallbridge is missing, one dead (42 YO, C. Christian), appears that everyone else has been saved.

I read that they lost their diesels and taking on water. I understand, when they lost the diesels they were doomed.

I ask this and very green to sailing.... would it have been better to put into port when the force of the hurricane was known ? I'm guessing that his crew was not that experienced from a guess standpoint. If that was the case, (fair/ poor crew exp.) I would have been very concerned... with (continued) sailing into very bad weather. I did read ..that a boat can have a better chance at sea then at port to survive a bad storm. I did not get that point at all; wondered if this is (better chance to survive storm) is referenced to large ships like the H.M.S Bounty and the like ? ! ?

I'm Not 2nd guessing anyone, just asking a question to gain useful information (green sailor) for my use in the future.
 
#70 ·
I just read on AOL, that the CPT Robin Wallbridge is missing, one dead (42 YO, C. Christian), appears that everyone else has been saved.

I read that they lost their diesels and taking on water. I understand, when they lost the diesels they were doomed.

I ask this and very green to sailing.... would it have been better to put into port when the force of the hurricane was known ? ...

I'm Not 2nd guessing anyone, just asking a question to gain useful information (green sailor) for my use in the future.
Go back to page 1 of this thread and read along. Most of your questions have already been questioned...
 
#71 ·
Very sad. From the read of the Capt's last email in the post #66 news link, he was attempting to squeeze between the storm and land and make a run for it. That synches with the boat's track. He was not trying to get East of the storm and I've seen an article that fully understood the conditions of the impending hurricane on the day it departed CT.

It will be a learning experience to understand why they made such a decision. Was their schedule demanding? Were they building complacency from past heavy weather? And what caused the boat to take on water. Was it battered by heavy seas or did old faulty timber just fail? We may never know. With at least one fatality, the legal exposure to the organization and it's officers may be severe and keep details off the radar.

My deepest sympathy to the families of the lost crew.
 
#73 ·
Some more information about stability on tall ship safety that show how crazy were those heeling degrees on this movie:



In fact I was right in assuming 60º has a desperate angle, in fact it is even less for most tall ships (between 50 and 60º) and that corresponds to the downloading angle, that in modern sailing boats is normally near or over AVS (non return point). On this big animals water starts to enter the ship much sooner compromising stability.

There were made some serious studies about tall ships stability and the conclusions were that the heeling sailing safe heel angle is as little as 24º of heel and over 30º is really dangerous and can lead quickly to a downloading condition.





As I have said before the knowledge to sail one of these ships is a very particular one and a sailor used to modern boats, even a professional one will not understand the risks and procedures to take on bad weather with one of these boats.

Yes , they can take bad weather and the conditions that were described that lead to the sinking of the Bounty does not seem that severe (there was cases of tall ships surviving 75k winds) but that implies a very sound boat with a professional knowledgeable crew adapting proper very limited storm strategies.

It is worth to point out that most of those tall ships are steel boats made and designed in the last years of the XIX century, first years of the XX century and are not boats designed according with XVIII centuries designs.

To aggravate the situation it seems that on this boat only the Captain had knowledge of this type of boat. The crew was paid but almost all recruited t recently on Nova Scotia and I doubt they were specialized sailors.

So guys, take care in what tall ship you put your kids sailing: Bigger on this case does not mean necessarily safer.

Regards

Paulo
 
#74 ·
As a volunteer crew member on different boats, I make it a point to learn on each trip. My last trip in September was aboard s/v Windward. It's captain made the decision to turn around, and find a safe place to anchor. Though the boat could have weathered the storm, we found shelter. What a great lesson learned.
 
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