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HMS Bounty in trouble...

278K views 2K replies 105 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 ·
The HMS Bounty is a tall ship that was built in Nova Scotia in 1961 for the MGM movie "Mutiny on the Bounty", starring Marlon Brando...she appears to be in trouble from Hurricane Sandy.

From ABC News:
2:55 AM EDT: Coast Guard spokesman David Weydert tells ABC News, "The Coast Guard received notification that the sailing vessel HMS Bounty was in distress. We responded by sending out a C-130 aircraft and we're currently monitoring the situation."

And the ships website confirms she is in harms way:
TallShipBounty.org

I sure hope this story has a happy ending.
 
#522 ·
A lot of this depends on the sea state in that area off of Hatterass. Not only the shoals, but the Gulf Stream wind direction relative to it may have forced his hand as to direction he could sail. It was interesting to read about the righting moment and angle of heel which the boat could not recover from with relation to the angle of the sails and thie settings. Managing these ships and I am no expert at all so I post that disclaimer is somehwat different from sailing our sloops, Ketches.

Close hauled isnt a term they apparently can use.

I dont know enough to comment on this and am willing to admit it and dont hink it wise to speculate. which angle he should have attacked this storm because I dont know how to sail this type of ship, I dont know the specific conditions he was encountering other than lots of wind and large seas ( I dont know the sea state) and the other factors which would casuse him to sail a particular course ( water in the boat etc.)

As the facts come out it will present more and more of a picture as to the actual events which happened from the Bountys perspective. This will be helpful and maybe an educational moment for us and others when this is found out.

This does not abbrogate his responsibility for leaving knowing there was the oncomming storm.



Dave
 
#527 ·
A lot of this depends on the sea state in that area off of Hatterass. Not only the shoals, but the Gulf Stream wind direction relative to it may have forced his hand as to direction he could sail. It was interesting to read about the righting moment and angle of heel which the boat could not recover from with relation to the angle of the sails and thie settings. Managing these ships and I am no expert at all so I post that disclaimer is somehwat different from sailing our sloops, Ketches.

Close hauled isnt a term they apparently can use.

I dont know enough to comment on this and am willing to admit it and dont hink it wise to speculate. which angle he should have attacked this storm because I dont know how to sail this type of ship, I dont know the specific conditions he was encountering other than lots of wind and large seas ( I dont know the sea state) and the other factors which would casuse him to sail a particular course ( water in the boat etc.)

As the facts come out it will present more and more of a picture as to the actual events which happened from the Bountys perspective. This will be helpful and maybe an educational moment for us and others when this is found out.

This does not abbrogate his responsibility for leaving knowing there was the oncomming storm.

Dave
From what I have read, the square riggers are only able to point up about 20 degrees, not 20 degrees off the wind, 20 degrees off a beam reach. They also make a tremendous amount of leeway. This would drastically limit his options for setting a course under sail only.
 
#525 ·
One of the crew members said that they have little control. This was a sailboat with auxiliary engines and I don't think they were sailing.
How do you know they weren't sailing?

I guess that when things got really bad they had no choice except to do what the sea allowed them to do and they took the easiest course regarding the sea.P
Assumption based without facts are dangerous
 
#529 ·
I was going to ask if anyone had wind and sea data from the Bounty's last day and then realized, whether they were sailing or motoring won't change my opinion. The fatal flaw was made when they set to sea and put the crew and Coast Guard at undue risk of accomplishing their mission. Even if it is proven that a freak failure happened to the ship, that must be a consideration as well, unless you have no intention of calling on others to risk their lives to save yours.
 
#534 ·
I was going to ask if anyone had wind and sea data from the Bounty's last day ....
From Post #25:

They abandoned ship 90 miles southeast of Hatteras. The NDBC buoy in the vicinity (34.561 N 72.631 W) was reporting 30.5' waves and NNE winds gusting at 64 knots.
Also, the CG Pilots reported that seas were in excess of 30' when they were extracting the crew from their life-boat making extraction very difficult.

Putting to sea was a very foolish move. Having gotten to where they were, they would have been forced to sail west with the storm southeast of them and then turn southwesterly into the "Navigable Quadrant" but, finally southeast once the storm passed them as they could only scud before the winds which would have become westerly once the storm was well north of them. That would have placed the seas on their beam and it would have been rolling its guts out. The hull would have torqued up and I'm sure that would have sprung one or more seams. Fortunately only one innocent was lost. The Captain, basically, wrote her and his own death warrant.
 
#535 ·
I knew the wind speed and wave heights. It was direction I as getting curious about. NNE wind makes sense. I do wonder wave direction and suspect on their beam. Imagine that ride? 60 kts on your stern and 30 ft waves on your beam. Wow.

But, you're right, these make no difference. It was foolish, period.
 
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#539 ·
I found this on sailing anarchy , identified as the last known picture of The Bounty before she was abandoned. From FB
I can't vouch, but no one challenged it. Looks bad. To my untrained eye it looks like the wave is off to starboard and I would NOT want to be at the wheel.
If she was heading south with the storm to port, one would think the waves were coming from port as well.
 
#537 ·
Some interesting information:

Rear Admiral Steven Ratti, commander of the Coast Guard's 5th District, ordered the formal investigation on Thursday after the Coast Guard suspended its search for the Bounty's missing captain, 63-year-old Robin Walbridge....

"This has been classified as a major marine casualty due to the loss of life and the gross tonnage of the vessel," Coast Guard spokesman Lieutenant Michael Patterson said....

"This was an unprecedented storm," he said. "What were their sailing intentions? Was their intent to ride it out in what they thought was the safest place to be? Professional mariners know how to take avoidance measures," he added....

Coast Guard officials have debriefed the 14 surviving members of the crew, who were taken to the Coast Guard's Elizabeth City Air Station and turned over to the Red Cross. "We were able to get those initial narratives first-hand from the survivors rescued," he said.

The investigation could take months and involve hearings, which will likely be open to the public, Patterson said.

Coast Guard to investigate sinking of HMS Bounty replica | Reuters
 
#538 ·
This was an unprecedented storm," he said. "What were their sailing intentions? Was their intent to ride it out in what they thought was the safest place to be? Professional mariners know how to take avoidance measures," he added....[/url]
Uh oh, someone from the Bounty defense team better move to have him disqualified on the grounds of possessing an excess of common sense...:rolleyes:
 
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#553 ·
Again , I am no expert, but is 19 knots even feasible considering the hull and rudder design not to mention conditions? These ships are designed for 5-10 knots, and I cannot imagine what high speed would be like......on giant waves.

This is beyond my knowledge but seems questionable.
No, it is not feasible, anyone who thinks a pig like the BOUNTY could have averaged a speed of 19 knots over a period of 3 hours in that position is dreaming... There simply has to be something skewed about those reported positions/times...

The great Donald Mackay's clipper ship LIGHTNING held the record for the longest day's run, 436 miles for an average of 18 knots...



To suggest that the BOUNTY, with a hodgepodge crew of 16, could have exceeded such an average even for a portion of a day, is absurd...

Just my opinion, of course... (grin)
 
#548 · (Edited)
The last big red marker is the location the ship was last seen by the Coast Guard later after the rescue.
the last small red dot appears to be a point of difficulty... for its then they the course change is radical. And that mark is 90 nms se of CH where the other mark is 120 nms.

I think it shows they tried to head across the Gulf Stream and were hit on the eastern edge of it.





They got themselves between the hurricane and the Gulf Stream...
 
#549 ·
That's interesting. I've been trying to find weatherfax wind/wave charts for those days but have had no luck. It looks like they made it well into the navigable quadrant of the storm when something drastic happened. Wish I had saved those wfax charts from those days. Apparently there is no archive.
 
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#550 ·
http://www.cruiselawnews.com/uploads/image/Bounty.png

So, after the fact that it would, in hindsight, have been wiser to stay in port, the HMS Bounty did make it well around to the back side of the storm successfully when she had some sort of catastrophic trouble. Unfortunately, with the hull being lost, it may never be clear why she took on water and sunk. Going 19 knots and hitting a shipping container/ dead head? Hitting a whale? Losing a plank? Loosened seams and engine/pump failure?
 
#551 · (Edited)
Going 19 knots and hitting a shipping container/ dead head? Hitting a whale? Losing a plank? Loosened seams and engine/pump failure?
Hmmm hitting the Gulf Stream 40 knots wind against current wouldn't do it, you think?

Guess where this photo is taken. Notice the wave is breaking onto, from above, a full size ship. Not a 130 foot Wooden sailboat. Remember 3 were washed overboard in one wave. Only one got to the liferaft. Must have been a good wave.
 

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#552 ·
The picture you posted has little to do with the sea conditions that were actually pictured in the Bounty sinking. That's exactly what I am getting at. That picture looks like something from a North Sea storm and I can't see the slightest significance in posting it. What's the point? The pictures of the Bounty adrift or the pictures looking down from the chopper just don't show those kinds of conditions. Not only that but where they ran into trouble was well southwest and away from the center of the storm. They were in TS force winds. The reported wind was 40 knots or so, due east, not NE, indicating it was not opposing the GS and heaping up the seas. Getting into a lifeboat is difficult to impossible for many folks in calm conditions, something not publicized enough. Getting from a sinking ship up into a liferaft in moderate seas is not easy, especially with a thermal suit on. From what I've been able to learn, IMO, it will be determined that she went down primarily because the pumps stopped working and she flooded, not because she was overwhelmed by high seas and breaking waves. And again, she should not have been there to begin with.
 
#557 · (Edited)
Actually the conditions were described by the rescue team and by members of the crew:

Quote:
"We determined a safe time when we knew the ship would still be stable and we could get everyone on deck and change our focus from saving the ship to saving every life," said..first mate... Svendsen,...

But the ship's leadership lost all control once a giant wave broadsided the ship, knocking some of the crew -- already in their survival suits -- into the roiling sea....

But three days into the voyage, the crew found themselves in the middle of the ferocious storm, with heaving waves three stories high.

"The weather was so bad and we had so little control," said Douglas Faunt.

"It took every ounce of my strength to focus through to survive," said first mate Svendsen.

Winds were tearing at the crew at 70 mph, and by the fourth day the ship, which .. had been taking on water for 24 hours.

HMS Bounty Survivors: Crew of Ship Sunk During Hurricane Sandy Speak of Lost Shipmates - ABC News

Quote:
WITN-TV reporter Alize Proisy, who was at the Air Station were the survivors were brought in, reported that Coast Guard rescue swimmer Randy Haba helped remove crewmembers from a lifeboat and also helped save one crew member floating alone in the water.

Haba told WITN that that wind-driven ocean at the scene was some of the biggest seas he has ever been in.
1 dead, captain missing after 14 saved as Bounty sinks

Yes, you are right in saying that " it will be determined that she went down primarily because the pumps stopped working and she flooded" but probably the sea conditions had to do with the ingress of water that probably shorted the generators that powered the pumps:

Quote:
On Sunday evening, the Bounty's crew sent word that there was an electrical problem on board. Walbridge said the situation was under control and could wait until morning. The Coast Guard was notified and stayed in contact with the ship through the night.

But by early Monday, the Bounty was taking on water and its engines had failed.

HMS Bounty: 'We will bring our captain home' :: WRAL.com

Quote:
We received a distress call for Bounty at 1830 Sunday evening October 28th that the Ship lost power and the pumps were unable to keep up with the dewatering.
1 dead, captain missing after 14 saved as Bounty sinks

I think that there is a strong possibility that what happen and that sealed the fate of the ship was something very similar to what happened in 1998 under the command of the same Captain. This time he run out of luck.

Quote:
"The HMS Bounty, which has helped keep tourism afloat in St. Petersburg for more than 20 years, almost sank this weekend near Charleston, S.C., after three of its bilge pumps failed....

the ship began to take water around 9:30 p.m. Saturday, said Coast Guard Lt.j.g. Simone Brisco....

Investigators say the ship began taking on water after it ran into a storm and caulking between the planks was loosened.

"It was not a phenomenal storm," said Lt. Jeff Carter, a senior investigating officer with the Coast Guard. But the weather was rough enough to bang it around, he said. After the caulking loosened, water began to seep inside.

The main dewatering pump, which operates on diesel fuel and had evidence of wear, failed first, Carter said.
The two backup pumps, which operate on electricity, failed after the wires got wet."

Southpinellas: 'Bounty' nearly sinks while headed to St. Petersburg

Regards

Paulo
 
#555 ·
Rear Admiral Steven Ratti, commander of the Coast Guard's 5th District, ordered the formal investigation on Thursday after the Coast Guard suspended its search for the Bounty's missing captain, 63-year-old Robin Walbridge....

"This has been classified as a major marine casualty due to the loss of life and the gross tonnage of the vessel," Coast Guard spokesman Lieutenant Michael Patterson said....

"This was an unprecedented storm," he said. "What were their sailing intentions? Was their intent to ride it out in what they thought was the safest place to be? Professional mariners know how to take avoidance measures," he added....

Coast Guard officials have debriefed the 14 surviving members of the crew, who were taken to the Coast Guard's Elizabeth City Air Station and turned over to the Red Cross. "We were able to get those initial narratives first-hand from the survivors rescued," he said.

The investigation could take months and involve hearings, which will likely be open to the public, Patterson said.
Imagine that.
 
#556 ·
I heard from a reported professional member of gcaptain who we know is not really a professional member, but you can always lie about you qualifications on the internet that the Bounty was trying to sail to Portugal with contraband.

Unless yoiu have a verifiable name with verifiable crdentials it is just speculation as usual. The point that it is posted on gCaptain doesnt ensure that the posters are anymore than internet posters,

The inquiry will utilize professional testimony as well as expert witness. Who wants to bet me that NONE of the gCaptain internet bloggers will be called as professional witnesses.
 
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#558 ·
Hmm... I am sorry about that. Right you are. The title says " Riding out the Storm Day2 "

Then there is this one labeled " Riding Out the Storm Day3"
150 miles East of Cape Hatteras- SalParadise
Ha a member of the the Bounty Prosceution team trying to pass off evidence that is not true. Imagine that. Well at least he had a picture instead of just trying to quote a gCaptain phantoms expert wintness

Just remeber " if it does not fit.........you MUST aquit."
 
#560 ·
19 knots in a wooden box made of logs....full of water....desisels which barely move the ship...30 ft waves...no 19 ft waves..... heading south....no heading east...do you know how ridiculous this speculation sounds. Why do it

Lets hear what the EYEWITNESSES say. The photo of the scene which was the CG rescue doent look like 30 ft waves.

We already have damned him for sailing away from port....now are we to critique his sailing angle.

I think there will be multiple causations. MULTIPLE
 
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#565 · (Edited)
Obviously the shorter measurement is for paying marinas.... And the larger for bragging at the bar!

General characteristics
Tonnage: 409 GT
181 NT
Length: 180 ft (54.9 m) sparred
120 ft (37 m) on deck
Beam: 31.6 ft (9.6 m)
Height: 111 ft (33.8 m)
Draft: 13 ft (4.0 m)
Depth: 21.3 ft (6.5 m)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_(1960_ship)

Tonnage is up to... From 260 to 409 gt. does that mean anything?
 
#569 ·
Quote:

Coast Guard Vice Adm. Robert Parker, Operational Commander for the Atlantic Area, told ABC's "Good Morning America" that at the time of the distress call the ship was taking on two feet of water an hour.

source: Body recovered after 14 crewmembers rescued from sunken HMS Bounty | Fox News

I found out also a better description of the sea conditions at the time of the rescue:

quote:

...The scariest moment during the rescue occurred when a 30-foot wave crashed on top of one of the lifeboats with people still inside...."There were times I thought I was going to do body surfing and slide down the face of a 25-foot wave," Todd said. "There were other times I had my head down, where I felt my feet get lifted over the top my head."

Source:
Body recovered after 14 crewmembers rescued from sunken HMS Bounty | Fox News

Regards

Paulo
 
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