SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

HMS Bounty in trouble...

278K views 2K replies 105 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 ·
The HMS Bounty is a tall ship that was built in Nova Scotia in 1961 for the MGM movie "Mutiny on the Bounty", starring Marlon Brando...she appears to be in trouble from Hurricane Sandy.

From ABC News:
2:55 AM EDT: Coast Guard spokesman David Weydert tells ABC News, "The Coast Guard received notification that the sailing vessel HMS Bounty was in distress. We responded by sending out a C-130 aircraft and we're currently monitoring the situation."

And the ships website confirms she is in harms way:
TallShipBounty.org

I sure hope this story has a happy ending.
 
#706 ·
Paulo,

Well I am a memeber of gCaptain and certainly not a professional. Its a social media site and I would not want to quote from it or pass it off as the " authority or on professional captains anymore tha Sailnet is>

Also your reporting from the social media site is not even handed and there is a much differening opinions on the site as on Sailnet.

NOTE: This does not mean I am defending the captains actions.

For isnstance the follwoing psoted on gCaptain
The Bounty fiasco and an undeserved black eye

"Sail training" and tall ship sailors has certainly gotten a black eye over the past two weeks. Some of the criticisms are well thought out; and, hopefully, some positive things will come out of the Bounty fiasco.

However, this forum has hosted many unwarranted, disparaging comments about the people who crew these "tall ships" I am posting this to, hopefully, put some of the "sail training" discussion back on a charted course.

I had the privilege to meet a lot of really great people in the wrongly named "sail training community". Many of them were retired people who want to the opportunity to give back to the community. Some were fresh out of college. Some were attracted by the living history. Some were looking for an outdoor activity. And, yes, some of them were tree-hugging, granola chomping , want-to be actors, who showed up to volunteer because the renn fair was rained out.

But the common thread is that they are very good people. And they deserve far better treatment than they have received on this forum over the past couple of weeks.

And if you think your better than they are, in part, because you were able to pass a Coast Guard multiple choice test, you might be mistaken. PMC
Professional organizations tend to have more credibility if you choose them to bolster you opinions than passing off a social blog sie as the authority on the sunbject and quoting them.

Another example of as takefive put it
you constantly misquote us and attempt to mislead others about what we are saying
' Its getting old

You do have a lot of other good posts, however I think your time ( as well as mine) may have run its course on this thread.
 
#707 · (Edited)
..

Another example of as takefive put it ' Its getting old

That is very low. When somebody wants to say something like that, it is wrong to use others to hide behind them. I certainly would be very clear in what I was meaning if I was accusing someone of wrongdoing. Takefive is talking about a misquote I have made, not of a poster but from an article, attributing some sentences to the wrong person. That article was confusing, at least for me and when someone noticed that I was wrong I acknowledged and apologized.

Some difference from you that had quoted me wrongly and did not apologized, mumbling something about my posts being confusing.

I am referring to this:



Regards

Paulo
 
#708 · (Edited)
Usually when people quote they do not copy the others moniker or avatar. It confusing and makes it look like I just posted this when it in fact was weeks ago. No one else on here does this ...any special reason?

Is your purpose on here to to help others or do you have a hidden agenda directed at me? You can try and point the finger back at me but before you do I suggest you look at your tone and posts specifically directed at me. I put you on ignore, but found out you were continuing to respond to my posts in a negative and inflamatory manner when they got forwarded to me by my friends on here though PM,s.

I apologize to others if I seem argumentative or seem distracted from my normal posts and I will try and do better. Sorry to waste your time with this nonsense. Lies cannot go unanswered lest they become perceived as the truth.

Dave
 
#711 · (Edited)
Usually when people quote they do not copy the others moniker or avatar. It confusing and makes it look like I just posted this when it in fact was weeks ago. No one else on here does this ...any special reason?

Is your purpose on here to to help others or do you have a hidden agenda directed at me? You can try and point the finger back at me but before you do I suggest you look at your tone and posts specifically directed at me. I put you on ignore, but found out you were continuing to respond to my posts in a negative and inflamatory manner when they got forwarded to me by my friends on here though PM,s.

I apologize to others if I seem argumentative or seem distracted from my normal posts and I will try and do better. Sorry to waste your time with this nonsense. Lies cannot go unanswered lest they become perceived as the truth.

Dave
Dave, has I said before I did not attack you or anybody I am here to enjoy and learn and certainly I have nothing against you or anybody else. It was you that accused me of wrongdoing and for several times, saying that my tone was hysterical and accusing me of misquoting constantly without referring to what you are talking about. On the last post you are accusing me to lie, or to post lies and as usually you don't say to what you are referring to. Of course that should be unacceptable, but who cares? I never attacked you personally and if so, please post what you consider a personal attack.

I have diverged from your opinion as well as others and my tone was never rude but I don't fell that anybody has the right to tell the others when they should stop posting or stop expressing his opinion.

Regarding re-posting your post where you misquote me, that way is the only way to re-post it comprehensibly because as that post has quotes, they would not have appeared if I simply used the quote system and would make it incomprehensible. Regarding people thinking that it is a new post, it is inside my post, I say in what contest I am referring to it and at the end I send regard to you and post my name, so it is clear it is inside my post. Besides that it is clear on the re-post that is the post nº 413 and we are now well over post 700 and that will tell people were the post was made and where to look for it, if they want to check it out.

Regards

Paulo
 
#710 ·
Prior to a flight, we use things like checklists and mandatory weather briefings. They help, but complacency can also cause one to skip through them too quickly.

I think the solution to this one is going to put the Tall Ship community directly in the bullseye. By design, they are intended to conjure up the thought of our forefathers sailing the open ocean in a time without any modern convenience or safety. They didn't have the ability to forecast weather like we can.

Combine the romance of crewing a ship that crossed oceans hundreds of years ago with the realization that they had to tackle severe weather and the thought of adventure can probably overcome the logic of risk management. Compound that with what appears to be a loophole in how these ships and their crew are regulated and that may have been the real perfect storm around Sandy.
 
#713 ·
It will be economically impossible for a Tall Ship to stay in pristine enough condition to pass a serious modern safety inspection. They will have a very difficult time in defining what standard should be acceptable for a ship like Bounty. Further, they could restrict the severity of condition that they undertake a passage, but again, defining it will be difficult.

I think the most likely outcome will be a mandatory minimum crew that have minimum experience applicable to the vessel. Real professionals. They are much more likely to push back than adventuresome passengers lost in the romance of an 18th century tall ship.
 
#715 ·
I think that it will end the possibility of these ships to be classified as unispected passenger vessels (like the Bounty) and that all ships will have a mandatory proper inspection and not one only over safety items aboard.

As I have said, and agreeing with what you say, many of those ships, but not all, are fair or moderate weather ships and not able anymore to sustain with safety heavy weather.

I hope that as a result of those inspection these ships to be reclassified regarding the sea conditions they are authorized to sail. This seems to me the ruling that can prevent better more accidents and that will allow the Tall ships that have conditions to sail unlimited to carry on with their activity.

Regards

Paulo
 
#729 ·
Working construction for almost 40 years I often heard the guys trash talk weekend warriors but I've met some weekend warriors that really impressed me. And I've known MANY construction pros who were an embarrassment to their trade.

FWIW
I'd hire a skilled amature carpenter to build a deck or even an addition, not to manuver a derick crane on top of a sky scraper with city traffic below. To get an AB unlimited licsense you need 1080 day's at sea on a vessel with some tonnage on it. That's a lot of weekends. That's the minimum a watch keeper should have on a ship the size of the Bounty.
The Phantom had some land lubb'n board of director's seal there fate. And A young Captain who did'nt have the ball's to take control of his ship.
 
#724 ·
Here is the thing. We have all be caught by surprise storms and maybe that is the unfortunate thing that happened to Bounty. However, it was long on the radar. Hey I am a woman, not a guy, so maybe that reflects my personal opinion is I would rather have the boat wreck itself in a harbor with the crew safe and sound on land, than risk lives by heading out to sea in a severe storm. Saving a boat is not worth risking peoples' lives. NOt to mention the cost of the rescue and putting at risk Coast Guard lives as well.
 
This post has been deleted
#727 · (Edited)
The realistic thing to put in place is a board of directors that manage the routing and missions of the ship with stability , condition, risk in mind. Roger Long wrote that regarding the Pride of Baltimore that the recommendation was for a policy based on stability curves and other studies which the board should use to task and route the ship. If there is a chance of exceeding the capability of the vessel, it either does not go on the trip, or its route and/or schedule is altered.

Its not the best situation to rely on a mutiny or insubordination of the crew as a safety plan.

If the Bounty had such a policy and directors overseeing its implementation, then without a doubt she would still be afloat.
Sal, many, many, commercial shipping companies already have policies and directors and routing and all the rest of it, but the most idiotic (in hindsight) stuff still happens. Costa Concordia, Rena, Exxon Valdez.. need we go on?

The sea is not something you can tame or control and "stability curves" make absolutely no difference against rogue waves, freak storms, navigational errors, etc. As has been pointed out several times already, you can't mitigate against stupid... and even the most experienced sea-captains have been known to make the wrong decisions from time to time.

..so IMHO if the Bounty had such a policy and directors overseeing its implementation, then, sure as eggs, she would still be right where she is now.
 
#726 ·
But he was "forced" to by crewMarkseaof life.
Good post. NOt sure how a Captain can let his crew force him to leave. A good Captain should have stood his ground. One of the things learned from Rule62. The Captain must do what is right for the safety of those hes in charge of and not succemb to the pressure of the crew. ( even if it is your wife).

Dave
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brewgyver
#731 ·
Well, if the boat licence specified that the boat should not sail over f7 or go out of port with a prevision of winds over f7, the boat would be still afloat-PCP.
This is not necessarily true and I await the full investigative report. We still do not know what sunk the ship. There have been unverified rumors about leaking planks, failed genrators and engines, pumps which failed. All this could have happened in a gale also.

This enough would not prevent a similar fate IMHO and there needs to be a deeper or more thorough means of inspection, vertification and verification of the vessels maintainence amnd structural integrity just as an airplane undergoes before it flies at all. I agree with Minnie in his ststement about the need for certification of the Tall ships/ Tourist ships. I beleive the full inspection will point out and recommend changes to the current method or certification ( or not) of these vessels.

In addition you also have contributed in the assertion indirectly that there needs to be assurance of a more "professional" overall crew other than the Captain aboard the ship. While I dont necessarily agree with the "cult" analolgy, especially the Jim Jones comparison you jumped to, I do think that you pointed to a potential flaw in the staffing of these vessels which convey tourists. Again IMHO there needs to be more than one lisneced ( Captain) individual on board. The running of these ships requires a certain degree of specialization. Even though I have sailed for 4 years, I would have no real clue how to sail a ship like this, her capabiliteis, as well as her critical deficiencies and danger points.

I will continue to point out so no one misconstrues my opinoin, none of this exonnerates or minimizes the Captains decision and leaving the dock in the direction of an impending storm.

Dave
 
#738 ·
We know what the law says.

Does anyone know for sure without a shadow of doubt what inspections if any the Bounty went through or did not go through? The fact they may not have been required is not proof that they didnt.

First hand knowledge or report from a government agency will suffice. I prefer not to make assumptions and hypothesis unless it is a known fact.

Anything other than that is conjecture and unfounded speculation.

Dave
 
#744 ·
....Does anyone know for sure without a shadow of doubt what inspections if any the Bounty went through or did not go through? The fact they may not have been required is not proof that they didnt.

First hand knowledge or report from a government agency will suffice. I prefer not to make assumptions and hypothesis unless it is a known fact.....
There is proof they were inspected. I think it's been posted before.

The Bounty was an "uninspected passenger" vessel, as you can see in the next link, but that apparently doesn't mean its never inspected. From what I've read, the difference is whether she is inspected for the basics or for serious seaworthiness. While I can't find copies of the inspection documents themselves, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can describe what these would have been on an uninspected passenger vessel. That should not require the results of an investigation to clarify.

USCG CGMIX PSIX Vessel Details Page

I think it is also important to point out that complying with regulation never insures safety. You are required to have PFDs aboard, but people routinely drown. Inspected vessel are known to sink as well. It almost always comes back to one's judgement.

To restrict the Tall Ships to serious professional crews when making a passage would undoubtedly restrict their mobility, perhaps prevent it. I've seen armadas of Tall Ships celebrate various holidays, most typically our Independence Day on Jul 4th. It must be our pride, as a new country, in defeating the most powerful Navy in the world at the time.

However, I will never look upon one again, without the thought of the risk it may have taken to arrive and I'm not impressed.
 
#739 ·
I know the Western Union , the ship that laid the phone cable to Cuba was over and over again failing their Coast Guard Inspection, until finally they passed after a huge structural refit, and they are only sailing around the Bay with tourists. It's the Coast Guard who say's yay or nay in the end. Most of the big ocean Tall ships are steel, like the Eagle. The ones I see that are sea worthy are Sweedish or Dutch. It takes a government to fund these things properly.
 
#743 · (Edited)
Yes... actually Cutty Sark is what was known as a "hybrid" (composite construction) - timber on iron frames - and Vasa isn't so much a ship as an exercise in advanced conservation techniques.. but, yes, you're right... and you missed all of the ones we have down here ("famous" being a relative term)..

..but back to the story at hand. ;)
 
#745 ·
Ship builder's should build the strongest and well built ships they can. If they are building a replica of a 19th century wooden tall ship, the should'nt just go for the look but the integrity which which those ships were built. Look at the house's that ship's carpenters built in Key West, they are are still there, I rent a little studio in a house that was built circa 1860 by ship's carpenters. And the ships should be decommisioned when the beam's are rotten and the plank's are old and butter. The Bounty was OLD. my Grandpa was a hell of a football player when he was 20, He wasn't playing in the big leagues at 40, or 50, or 60.....The tug I'm working on this hitch was built in 1960 and it's about to be taken out of service. And yes, there need's to be a governing body that say's no, that old boat has no buisness going to sea with volenteers, payed crew or students. One problem is our Coast Guard is comprised of a bunch of pencil pushing Land Lubbe'rs. Any one that has the sea coursing through there veins would never join the coast Gaurd. My neighborhood pub is a block from the gate of the Key West Coast Guard Station. Ask any of the Coasties sitting in there where they are from. 9 times out of 10 they are from a land locked state. We are pushing for a Merchant Marine Body to Govern the Merchant Marine's because the coast Guard Has there prority's all out of whack. As for meesing with Huricanes, It's just stupid. Somebody Hired the Bounty Captain, I'm betting someone with little or no experience at sea, there fore he could convince them he was capable of making wize decsisions, didn't his wife say's he had been in lot's of huricanes?
 
#746 ·
.....Ask any of the Coasties sitting in there where they are from. 9 times out of 10 they are from a land locked state........
Haven't met a pilot born in the sky yet. I don't think this is a serious disqualifier. I understand the frustration with bureaucracy. I'm willing to wager a round at Sloppy Joes that the FAA is more bureaucratic, almost all of which have never flown an aircraft at all. Still, there are some very capable USCG officers.

.....didn't his wife say's he had been in lot's of huricanes?
I think she did. I know the Captain himself is on tape saying so, as well as one of the rescued crew members. I believe it was the first mate.
 
#747 ·
To restrict the Tall Ships to serious professional crews when making a passage would undoubtedly restrict their mobility, perhaps prevent it. I've seen armadas of Tall Ships celebrate various holidays, most typically our Independence Day on Jul 4th. It must be our pride, as a new country, in defeating the most powerful Navy in the world at the time-Minniewaska.
I wasnt talking about a whole crew of professionals here. Some of the opinions expressed here were that you had a bunch of syncophants or cult ( tall ship groupies) sailing this ship. Not sure I completely agree with that characterization, but knowing that the Captain is the only professional aboard the ship, a ship which characteristics are not necessarily like other sailing ships doesnt seem like a great idea and may be something which needs to be addressed.

To the point about the tall ships owned by governments, looking at Eagle, Gloria, Godspeed, Dewaruci, Cauhtemoc, and Guayas this summer at the Baltimore OP Sail, these are maintained by governments and used by their navies as training vessels for their navies. Thats a different class of tall ships IMHO for what we are talking about. You cant compare the to the Bounty

Minnie, you are in the airline industry...how do they deal with the issue you raised here of complacency? How often is complacency identified as a cause in airplane accidents? What steps does the industry use to combat it and are any of them apprapo to be used to overt a disaster like this?
 
#753 · (Edited)
I wasnt talking about a whole crew of professionals here. Some of the opinions expressed here were that you had a bunch of syncophants or cult ( tall ship groupies) sailing this ship. Not sure I completely agree with that characterization, but knowing that the Captain is the only professional aboard the ship, a ship which characteristics are not necessarily like other sailing ships doesnt seem like a great idea and may be something which needs to be addressed....
Nobody on this forum used the word "syncophants" in what regards qualifying the crew. That word was used on the gCaptain forum by Fragrat ((chief…I have sailed just about everything) and PMC (1600 master), the one you quoted here as having a different opinion on gCaptain forum, agreed with the qualification. More five users "liked" that post on that forum.

quote:

Originally Posted by Fraqrat
"In the TSC it appears that each vessel master has his on cult of personality and his fair share of sycophants for crew."
PMC: "Thank you for your timely illustration of my point"

The Bounty fiasco and an undeserved black eye

I used the phrase " cult of personality" as a possible explanation of why sailors, that apparently had some experience, followed the Captain in what was obviously a very risky and dangerous voyage without even making some questions or expressing some doubts.

Regards

Paulo
 
#748 ·
One problem is our Coast Guard is comprised of a bunch of pencil pushing Land Lubbe'rs. Any one that has the sea coursing through there veins would never join the coast Gaurd.-Captain Aaron
Pretty broad brush you are painting with here. I know many of the people at the USCG Station Cape May and most are pretty well put together. They do a major amount of resucues, drug interdiction, port control and just basic grunt work there. Most of them are dedicated career minded who take seriously their responsibiloity.

At the same time I agree with you about some of the administrative eleements of the CG. That is usual in all large neaurocratic instittutions which have a political basis necesaary for funding therefore oversight.

dave
 
#750 · (Edited)
No. We are learning something that might benefit the chances of us surviving our next cruise.

You are not being forced to partake.

Now, back to the Coast Guard and whatever an un inspected passenger ship is...

The CG may get a grilling in an inquiry... And the outcome may be interesting:

The Bounty certainly had a lot of certificates, but does each one mean an actual inspection? And to what degree?
CERTIFICATE OF DOCUMENTATION USCG July 25, 2012 July 31, 2013
Tonnage Certificate, International ABS July 16, 2012
Certificate of Inspection USCG May 16, 2012 September 30, 2012
Certificate of Inspection - Amended USCG May 16, 2012 September 30, 2012
Certificate of Inspection USCG April 5, 2012 April 5, 2013
Certificate of Inspection USCG April 5, 2012 September 30, 2017
Certificate of Inspection USCG December 20, 2011 April 1, 2012
Tonnage Certificate, International ABS July 25, 2011
Stability Letter June 15, 2011
Certificate of Inspection USCG May 20, 2011 May 20, 2012
Certificate of Inspection USCG March 5, 2011 March 5, 2012
Certificate of Inspection - Amended USCG March 3, 2010 March 3, 2011
Certificate of Inspection USCG March 3, 2010 March 3, 2011
Certificate of Inspection USCG March 3, 2009 March 3, 2010
Certificate of Inspection - Amended USCG March 3, 2009 March 3, 2010
USCG CGMIX PSIX Vessel Details Page

Some of the threads on gCaptain are about some photos of Bountys engine room allegedly taken in May 2012. Those photos have now been removed from public view but some of the comments about the standard of the engine room remain.
I think those photos would come out in an enquiry.
Maybe a lot of the comment on gCaptaain on apparent oddities in the engine room will be discounted, but with the photos there some may need to be explained by the CG as to why certain certificates were issued and what they mean.
 
#760 · (Edited)
Nobody on this forum used the word "syncophants" in what regards qualifying the crew.
I didnt pull the word synchophant out of thin air. Wether it was originally posted on gCaptain or quoted by a poster on here to make their point it is the same as posting it IMHO. Whoever posts it agrees with it or they wouldnt quote it. Please stop nitpicking my posts over words, like who said sychophant or the REAL meaning in the kinds english of the word bash ( BTW a poster on gCaptian also used the same word), It detracts from the intention of the post and the constant nitpicking really is irrelevant.

Now back to our regular scheduled message

But time alone doesn't make a wise, skilled professional-JulieMor
.

So true, I can think of many instances like this. It was stated well here that just passing a CG multiple choice test by itself doesnt qualify you for anything. (I know there is an experiencial part to this also in terms of hours/ days)

We have also seen experience doesnt mean it also. The wrong experience could lead to a false sense of security...and too much expeience could lead to complacency.

So what do we do...check out people before we board their ship for a quick sail in Baltimore harbor? I certainly would be more thorough checking out the Captain as a crew memeber on an ocean going passage like this vessel set out on. Would that research have shown his willingness to set sail into the path of a hurricane?

Here is the real question....I have a feeling I know what most of your answers are but I will ask......

Had you been a signed up member of the crew, with your present state of experience and knowledge....would you have stepped foot on the Bounty and left the dock with Captain Walbridge that evening? If not what would you have done? Would you step off and walk away quietly? Would you confront the Captain and tell him your misgivings and not sail, would you tell the others they should not go? Would you call the home office and tell of thier misgivings? Would you call the CG and let them know the Captain likes to chase Hurricanes and was hell bent on chasing Sandy?

What would you really DO?

Dave
 
#761 ·
I didnt pull the word synchophant out of thin air. Wether it was originally posted on gCaptain or quoted by a poster on here to make their point it is the same as posting it IMHO. Whoever posts it agrees with it or they wouldnt quote it. Please stop nitpicking my posts over words, like who said sychophant or the REAL meaning in the kinds english of the word bash ( BTW a poster on gCaptian also used the same word), It detracts from the intention of the post and the constant nitpicking really is irrelevant.

Now back to our regular scheduled message

.

So true, I can think of many instances like this. It was stated well here that just passing a CG multiple choice test by itself doesnt qualify you for anything.

We have also seen experience doesnt mean it also. The wrong experience could lead to a false sense of security...and too much expeience could lead to complacency.

So what do we do...check out people before we board their ship for a quick sail in Baltimore harbor? I certainly would be more thorough checking out the Captain as a crew memeber on an ocean going passage like this vessel set out on. Would that research have shown his willingness to set sail into the path of a hurricane?

Here is the real question....I have a feeling I know what most of your answers are but I will ask......

Had you been a signed up member of the crew, with your present state of experience and knowledge....would you have stepped foot on the Bounty and left the dock with Captain Walbridge that evening? If not what would you have done?

Dave
I know exactly what I would of done, I would of told him he's a flipp'n moron and physically stopped him from leaving the dock. I've been faced with the same descision when I was a young crew on a ship right before Hugo hit P.R.. and the ship did sink, at the dock. Luckly the crew headed my protest and joined in my descision to not go, or I was going to disable the engine beyond a quick repair.
 
#762 ·
So we are going to ask the Coast Guard to increase inspections to protect us from ourselves?

Chef2Sail:
Is your yacht called Haleakula? If so, that means "house of the Open Meadows" in Hawaiian. "House of the Sun" is "Haleakalā" in Hawaiian.
 
#768 ·
Question:
Could the Coast Guard have prevented the Bounty from sailing when it left the dock prior to hurricane Sandy? If so, under what regulation? If someone had called the CG and said they did not think Bounty should sail, would the CG do anything or just let her go? Can the CG restrict boats/ships from sailing into certain weather systems like a northeaster or hurricane, seeing the CG will be called for help when somthing goes wrong?
 
#769 ·
They can close a harbor. restricting movement. MARSEC level's and what not. They can advise against, and they can decommission a vessel and admin. fines to the captain and owners as well as pull his ticket if he does'nt head the warning.
 
#773 ·
They can also declare a planned departure to constitute a "manifestly unsafe voyage", see section (g) here:

§ 177.07 Other unsafe conditions. :: PART 177--CORRECTION OF ESPECIALLY HAZARDOUS CONDITIONS :: CHAPTER I--COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY :: Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters :: Code of Federal Regulations :: Regulations :: L

Thing is, while it is tempting to opine that a voyage "was" manifestly unsafe after a casualty, if this very considerable power is used too often, we are looking at the "nanny state" which most mariners hate.

So in my experience the Coast Guard (meaning a District Commander, the decision actually gets all the way to the Admiral) uses this weapon very sparingly, and usually it's the vessel's condition, rather than the captain's planned route or tactics, that triggers such a finding and termination of a voyage. And they are particularly reluctant to tell a skipper who wants to ride a storm out at sea, that he can't.

Would more people live if they declared a voyage manifestly unsafe if there was even a little doubt? Yes. But at what price freedom and 'captain's discretion', which typically (okay, not here I admit) saves many more lives than it costs?
 
#775 ·
Would more people live if they declared a voyage manifestly unsafe if there was even a little doubt? Yes. But at what price freedom and 'captain's discretion', which typically (okay, not here I admit) saves many more lives than it costs?
I think the tall ship industry in the USA may well be shivering in their shoes.

And I think we can say that for the future of cruising as it is now, we are lucky that not all 16 died!
 
#776 · (Edited)
Paulo, the Coast Guard, though having lots of peacetime missions, is also a military service, and they and their predecessor services (the Revenue Cutters of the Treasury Dept) took in all major wars at sea.

So the Captain of the Port is typically a Coast Guard Captain, or Commander. And they have much authority to order ships to move,or not move, depending on the security needs of the port or any other event which requires such action in the interest of safety, preservation of the port, and the like. So sounds not unlike your Navy Port Captains.

A blurb on Coast Guard history from the 'good book' Wikipedia ;-)



And the need to go to the Admiral is to make sure this rather drastic step of ordering someone not to sail from a nice harbor on a nice day because of what might happen later at sea, isn't overused of taken in haste by some Lieutenant down on the waterfront. Usually Admiral follows the recommendation of the Captain of the Port, who knows his/her Lieutenants.
 
#782 ·
...
And the need to go to the Admiral is to make sure this rather drastic step of ordering someone not to sail from a nice harbor on a nice day because of what might happen later at sea, isn't overused of taken in haste by some Lieutenant down on the waterfront. Usually Admiral follows the recommendation of the Captain of the Port, who knows his/her Lieutenants.
Yes I guess it has similarities but here a Port captain is never a lieutenant. We have a different terminology, here a Captain is always a Navy officer and also one that is a rank to be Captain of a ship have a look:

Postos

As you see there are several Captains and the lower one it is Capitão Tenente that corresponds to a Major in the army. Normally Captain-lieutenant are in charge of smaller ports and on bigger ones the rank is Capitães de Fragata (over on the hierarchy). No inexperienced lieutenants in charge, all experienced seamen and probably is why they don't have to have authorization from an Admiral if they think something requires their ruling in what regards safety.

On the merchant ships "Captains" here are Comandantes (commander) and on fishing boats or small boats Mestres (Master). On private boats they are Patrões (Boss). Were we have to have licences for commanding private boats over 7m (Patrão). Under that you need only a Sailor's licence (Marinheiro). There are 3 Patrões licences, Local, Coastal and Deep sea (unlimited).

Well, complicated but you have to remember that our Navy is almost 800 years old and names and titles come for a long way and that tend to make things a lot more complicated;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#779 ·
Something is still missing.

As I said in my earlier post, since I am Captain Obvious, the Bounty crew were not conscripts. Why did all of them decide to go on what so many have labeled as an obvious suicide voyage? Not one of them could be compelled to sail against their will.

Even in the U.S. Navy, nobody is going to tackle you if you decide to walk off the brow even as the lines are being singled up. Oh, your ass is grass alright... but nobody's going to tie you up and force you to get underway. Better to have discipline problems OFF the ship than to bring them along for the ride. Follow the captain's orders on the ship or follow the guard's orders in the brig. But either way, you still have a choice.

So, why were 16 people complicit in such stupidity, if that is the argument that is being made- namely that the decision to sail would be obviously stupid, even to the most disinterested observer?

I say that 16 people would not be so stupid. Nor would they all be coerced by imaginary orders from a commercial captain of a display ship. The captain is the captain at sea-we live and die by following his orders, but on the hard he's one more boss at a job that you can quit. There's the door. This is still America.

Although a great number of smart people have posted wonderfully insightful opinions on this thread, it is all total conjecture at this point. There are 16 people who have to answer the question, because only they know the truth- and dare say not all 16 will agree when all is said and done.
 
#780 ·
Something is still missing.

There are 16 people who have to answer the question, because only they know the truth- .
Oh no, they may not know the truth!! They may think they know. They may think they were going of their own free will.

But no they may have been deluded!

Young, naive, and deluded by lots of nice masts, a skipper with personality, a mate with a gold earring, the smell of adventure and "we are a team!" Or the other type: "yes, you go home to mummy you woooose. Go play with toys, you're not man enough to sail on a tall ship with us. Look how stupid you will feel when we arrive in Florida having beaten Frankenstorm".

No. The people inside the cult, the ones believing the cult leader may be the last to be able to tell the truth.
 
#790 ·
I think someday we are going to have problems because there are too many sailors out there calling for help without having a valid reason to do so (except inexperience) or because they are doing foolish things in old boats that should only be sailed locally. The worst thing is that the non sailing guys are starting to have a point.
And with all the electronic charts, navigation, gps trackers, sat phones and e-mail, weather routing, weather forcasting, power winches, rolling furler and reefing mains on boats now, it is easy for a non experienced sailor (with a lot of money) to purchase a large well equiped boat and go out and get themselves into real trouble.
Probably how the professional truckers feel about car drivers.
Probabaly how the cowboys felt about the settlers going west to populate the US
Probabaly how the landowners in the country feel about the amateur hunters
Proabaly how the professional pilots feel about amatuers taking flying lessons

I am sure the professionals or people who make their professions feel this about people who utilize their space in a recreational manner.

Their are multiple layers of police who gaurd assist in the waters in coastal United Staes and it isnt necessarily always the CG intervening. I fact the CG has turned a lot of calls from recereational boaters over to other first responders and have changed their protocols. In addition there are many money making organizations who respond to most boating problems the people you describe above would require response to. Generally they dont respond unless their is potential loss of life immediately or they are the only game in town.

Overall I have respect for the CG and have seen a degree of professionalism throughout most of my dealings with them. very organization has its Wyatt Earps. Every big organization which has a political head has its beauracracy.

In todays world of terrorism I like seeing their presence in our waterway and harbor. I like seeing them escorting the cruise ships.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brewgyver
#792 ·
Can't argue with that, however the week end sailor used to have to have a much broader skill set than today, First they invented the engine, all of a sudden you didn't need to know how to sail, then the radio direction finder, no need to learn to navigate, now the chart plotter, why learn to read a chart, clips and jam's, why learn how to handle line,..........
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top