Originally Posted by chef2sail
Well I am a memeber of gCaptain and certainly not a professional. Its a social media site and I would not want to quote from it or pass it off as the " authority or on professional captains anymore tha Sailnet is
Also your reporting from the social media site is not even handed and there is a much differening opinions on the site as on Sailnet.
For isnstance the follwoing psoted on gCaptain
Professional organizations tend to have more credibility if you choose them to bolster you opinions than passing off a social blog sie as the authority on the sunbject and quoting them.
…You do have a lot of other good posts, however I think your time ( as well as mine) may have run its course on this thread.
Dave, I generically agree with that post you have quoted from gCaptain, in fact I have said that myself, I mean that the Tall Ship Community has also good Captains, sailors and ships run properly and that this case was menacing all community to be looked at risky unprofessional sailors.
This has nothing with what was posted on that forum regarding the Captain of the Bounty or the Bounty accident. This is a recent thread, not the one about Bounty accident.
By the way, the response of that post, that was made by a qualified tall ship crew and passenger vessel (1600 master) had very interesting replies that go on the direction Minnewaska and myself are pointing:
(1600 Master Oceans, 6000 Master OSV Oceans, MOT Inland/Gl, Master Inland AGT,2nd Mate) :
That was incredibly well stated, and with great restraint considering all the chatter of late.
We all lose track sometimes, and the anger over the loss of life due to one mans poor decision has many of the professional Mariners rightly upset. We don't suffer fools lightly, but none the less, no offense was meant to the many great teachers and Mentors of this TSC.
(1600GT Oceans, MTV, 1st Class Pilot, NY harbor, upper, lower, east r, DE)
Sorry. It IS a well deserved swollen, black and blue, bloodshot, tear stained eye!
While the concept of 'true' sailors, experienced crew and safe operations do exist.... The lack of knowledgeable oversight has been around since the concept of privately owned, pay for 'trainee' time, outward bound, shoestring budget operations started, the venerable HMS Bounty has done more to illuminate the tallship society for what it truly is. A way to run sailing ships with 'paying passengers' who are then listed as trainee, or some other name, so the vessels don't have to be inspected, meet full safety standards and put the entire 'crew' (wink wink) at risk.
There is a reason sailing ships were relegated to the dustbins of old. At the age of the Bounty (heck, even half the age... It even a quarter the age!) These old ships became barns, or were ran up on shore and became docks. I don't ever recall any old stories about any old 50 year old sailing boats that ended on a good note.
It is sad that an 'Industry' that does not pay a living wage to the entire crew, depends upon modern day impressment of seamen for manning, and uses a sneaky method of having help 'pay' and NOT be considered passengers that needs defending.
Makes me glad I saw the light 'working for Bob Douglas over 30 years ago. I was young, but saw the incongruity then. The Shennandoah is currently OUT of service. Why? She is 1 year younger than the Bounty. Coincidence? Most likely not!
Just to get something clear here. BOUNTY was not a "Sail Training Vessel" which are inspected under 46CFR subchapter R and have a minimum safe manning determination. BOUNTY was an 46CFR subchapter C uninspected passenger vessel which is worse as far as any oversight goes regarding safety of construction and equipment but to the best of my knowledge, nobody aboard BOUNTY on Oct 29th had paid for the privilege to be there that awful night. They might have been volunteers however.
(chief…I have sailed just about everything)
Most of us recognize there are many competent mariners,sailors, seamen in the TSC. Many feel it is unregulated high seas theatre. The vocal majority of bashers all agree on one thing the "Master" of that vessel FAILED his crew miserably. All of us that work in the oilfield had to endure this same thing after DWH. As we all know the truth hurts. Judging by all the comments here, on the news and the interweb this was not an isolated incident. As the oilfield people had to do now the TSC has to take a long hard look at itself.
Professional mariners are motivated to make a good wage and get home safely. In the TSC it appears that each vessel master has his on cult of personality and his fair share of sycophants for crew. In that instance you're only as safe as the guy making all the decisions.
This particular instance was a case of the blind leading the blind and it ended in catastrophe. If they had miraculously completed their voyage we would still find this man craven for taking that vessel out into a hurricane.
(C/E Steam/motor/GT unlimited)
I think they were surprised that the professional mariner community (PMC) didn't bubble over with condolences and support after the tragic loss of one of their best and most experienced captains courageous.
It is as if they believe they share some bond with working sailors and actually believed someone here would give them a hug and say they understand how that big bad storm just came up out of nowhere and took the ship away from the heroic captain who gave his life fightng the elements in a futile attempt to save his ship and crew - they believe he did everything he could - yeah, right, he did everything except for getting them rooms in the nearest Holiday Inn and having a storm party in the bar until it passed.
If after 300+ posts telling them that their hero was a criminally negligent idiot you would hope that they would get the idea that something is wrong with their club and its members. They were in a position to prevent
this and didn't say or do a thing to stop it. They knew what kind of dangerous fool was running that ship, they had almost 20 years to watch him and never said a word about it. They used that ship and that idiot to promote their own dockside attractions and sideshow cruises.
Well, TSC apologists, look for sympathy and kind words elsewhere, most of us here just call it as we see it and there just aren't many who see much glory or glamour or professionalism in taking a rotting, undermanned, leaking, poorly maintained wooden carnival ride into what was recognized even before Bounty sailed as the largest hurricane ever to hit the US east coast.
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PMC, the one that posted what you re-posted
here posts this, quoting another poster. I think it is enlightening:
Originally Posted by Fraqrat
"In the TSC it appears that each vessel master has his on cult of personality and his fair share of sycophants for crew."
PMC: "Thank you for your timely illustration of my point"
The Bounty fiasco and an undeserved black eye
I have said something similar on the other thread regarding the Bounty, talking about personality cult and the dangers of any cult, even a personality one, in what regards seamanship.