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Southern Cross 28 seaworthiness vs Morgan 33

43K views 20 replies 6 participants last post by  tumolt 
#1 ·
Hello all,
I have two sailboats (at least of concern here) and I am wanting to develop the boat best suited to blue water sailing. One is a Southern Cross 28 and the other is a 1969 Morgan 33 keelboat (not an out islander). The thing is that the SC28 will need some bucks to replace rigging, sails, and someone has suggested the engine is a bit small so maybe... The Morgan on the other hand has new mast boom, rigging, sails, engine, winches... However the Morgan does require some major interior refitting.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks bunches,
Anders
 
#3 ·
Ya - Donna also has a great website describing what she had to do to her SC28 to get it us to the task, and it seemed to me that it was a LOT of work! (I mean fun) I am not sure if the required efforts were a result of the boat needing lots of TLC, or whether they were beefing up sort of upgrades to handle the knock downs, heavy seas, etc. The thing is, the $$! I figure it will take me about $10K-$15K to get the SC28 ready (new-resewn used sails, new SS rigging, new chainplates, a few refits below deck and a bit above deck as well. I would probably forgo the new engine), and yet only maybe $5K ("just" cabinetry below decks)to get the Morgan33 going. Being as the Morgan is much bigger in the cabin, and is faster (so where am I going so fast???) it may be preferable? I just sent an email to Charley Morgan, but I don't know why he should answer such a newbie as I, but heck it is worth the try! Again, Thanks for any thoughts. Anders
 
#4 ·
Anders,

I'm no naval designer or architect but Bob Perry is and he is a member of Sailnut who checks in from time to time. He might be able to give you insights that I certainly cannot. If you get your post count over 10+ you could send him a private message (PM) and ask him directly about your dilemma.

If you look at the world wide distribution of Morgan sailboats: Boat Database Statistics
you will see that while many of them are in the US there are quite a few in the Mediterranean and elsewhere - so they DO cross oceans in them. That distribution represents ALL models of Morgan sailboats though and not just the M33.

I think that a lot depends on how you want to use your boat and where you want to be able to sail to. If you want a bullet proof boat for doing a circumnav than I'd follow in Donna's steps and refit the SC double ender but for less adventurous pursuits it may not matter so much and the Morgan 33 might be just fine.

I'll send Bob Perry a PM and ask him to look at this thread for you.
 
#5 ·
Caleb, Thanks again for the info. I have a feeling that link might be a big help in connecting with other M33 owners to figure out how she sails and handles the heavy weather. And thanks so much for forwarding my inquiry down the line. Very much appreciated! I thought I had heard a comment a while back that you can pretty much retrofit any boat to serve the needs of blue water sailing (within reason of course!) but I guess the question is how much ($ and time) it might set one back. I think that the thing I think of most is when all hell breaks loose in the form of one of those really nasty storms, would I come out alive with a boat that I could still sail? (ie from where ever I am in the large blue expanse to the nearest port so that I even have the opportunity to say to heck with it all - being too scared to continue!)
Thanks again,
Anders
 
#6 ·
Anders,
I can't seem to find Bob Perry's user id on this forum. I could send him a PM on another forum where I can find him (Anything Sailing Forum) or you could ask your post over there too. I did ask sailnet member Jeff_H to look at this thread as he is an architect and has a long history working around the boat building industry. He has also sailed a lot of different boats. Hopefully he will chime in.

From my own limited perspective (not familiar with Morgan build quality and design) my knee jerk reaction would be the Southern Cross, as the brand has a proven track record of crossing oceans. Smaller boats should be easier to single hand, if you will be single handing.

Heck, a guy who has the same model boat as I do (Tartan 27') did some extensive modifications to and took it from the US to the Marshall Islands in the S. Pacific. I guess that supports the theory that any decent boat can be refitted to do some blue water work. I guess it all depends on your wallet and your patience.
 
#7 ·
Caleb, my knee seems to be jerking in the same manner that your does (ie tending toward favoring the SC28) I really would hate to go to all that effort of retrofitting the M33 and end up with a boat that is not good for racing nor blue water sailing!

When I was a kid I made a lovely kayak from wood and canvas. I made it to be nicely maneuverable (for white water use), which it was in spades. But I was chagrined to find that the construction was so light that the wooden stringers simply snapped on impact, making this kayak useless for anything but going around in circles in a gentle river or a lake! Thank heavens I didn't spend much on that project!

By the way, I do plan to sail solo. So far in the San Francisco Bay Area all of my excursions have been single handed, and I am slowly getting a bit more confident that I can handle the challenge.
 
#8 ·
Anders,
Sounds like it is racing AND blue water capability you are interested in - as well as being able to single hand.
I like using these simple spec sheets for comparing 2 boats:
SOUTHERN CROSS 28 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
MORGAN 33 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
There is also the sail calculator that will compare 2 boats for you: Sail Calculator Pro v3.53 - 2500+ boats

There are lots of conflicting data points you can look at though:
- The LWL of the M33 is about 24' while the SC28 is about 20' which should make the M33 faster
- The M33 weighs more than the SC28 by over 1 ton which may make her less nimble in light winds. It may also make her less tender in winds.
Then there are the SA/Disp, Bal/Disp and Disp/length ratios which don't help me too much viscerally. This is why I'm hoping that one of the guys with actual design credentials shows up to comment.

I have nothing against Morgans per se. The only one I was on was a M36 that was sadly in need of ... everything and was a mooring queen - before it lost its mast. A boat like that in top shape could go places I am sure.

I think that Donna Lange's circumnav proved that the SC 28' can do it - even though she had some serious set backs along the way - IIRC. It costs real money to re-fit a boat for the big ocean though.

For an ocean going vessel it seems one should have:
- life raft
- radar
- SSB or Sat phone
- storm drogue (Jordan Series Drogue or similar)
- good medical kit
according to ARC guidelines, all of which can cost a pretty penny.
 
#9 ·
Caleb,

Thanks so much for being willing to chat about my dilemma! I really appreciate someone with whom I can explore ideas. It certainly helps solidify my thoughts. Thanks also for your links. I have bookmarked these for future reference as well as myu current needs.

I was very fortunate to touch base with one M33 owner, who had this to say: " ... I do feel the boat is basically sound for blue water sailing..." Apparently he has made quite a few modifications for coastal cruising in New England and seems to very much enjoy his boat.

Per the comparison of the Sail Calculator, the SC28 and M33 appear to be quite similar, with the M33 edging out the SC28 in a few places, but as you suggest, I am not sure if the numbers say it all. So yes, it would be great to have some on-the-water comments. I am hoping to strike up a conversation with the one M33 owner who has sailed his a fair amount.

As far as the Blue Water sailing equipment goes, I expect that these things would be required for whichever boat one settles upon. In my case, I have been slowly gathering the toys. I found a nice ICOM SSB radio (if it has not been stolen in the recent burglary of my home in CA) and I got one of those fancy broadband radars in a sale at thbe end of last year. So now what remains is a life raft.

Along these lines, the M33 is probably a bit better as it has much more room above deck than the SC28, with all that space to store stuff! As it is, in sailing the SC28 in the Bay Area, I have found the deck to be quite tight, allowing little extra space for spare fuel jugs, water jugs, life rafts, dingys, solar panels..... Even below decks the SC28 feels somewhat tight. Maybe this is good as in a blow, you won't be thrown about quite so ar, but I expect that it will be very difficult to fit all the goodies inside!

So now, with the one limited comment of the M33 owner, the Sail Calculator comparison, and these other considerations, the M33 looks a little better. No, I am not really headed toward racing (although I have heard that any sailor becomes a racer when he even gets close to another boat!), but the idea of having a 20% increase in speed means that you can go to 20% more places in a given period of time? I expect that after a few weeks on the rolling deck, the outlook of green rising up above the briny deep is a welcome sight! So heck , 10days on the M33 vs 12 on the SC28???

And then of course there is this question, what am I going to do with the M33 if I don't get her ready to sail? She is a beached whale right now and it will take quite an effort to get her down to the beach. If I don't tend to her needs, my guess is that she will end up rotting in the mountains - what a very BAD image!!!
 
#10 ·
Oh and I forgot, there was one other reply to my private inquiries. Although it was not personal experience of the writer..."I exchanged emails with Charley Morgan some time ago and he told me the 33 Classic (not the Outisland) was one of his favorite boats as far as its sailing qualities go. We had planed to use ours for cruising and while I am sure it would have been quite capable, I feel the interior space is a bit limited." So quite indirectly, I have the thoughts of Charley Morgan, but I am not exactly sure what "favorite boat" implies. Form the point of view of racing it might be fantastic, but it might be a bit low to the water and wet, not so good for cruising? (which is why the 33OI has higher top-sides?)
 
#11 ·
Been enjoying this investigation but one caveat...Morgans OI designs were intended for the bareboat charter busineess. Too often. People think of them as some final refinement of his design ideas ..this is way off the mark.... space and comfort were predominant issues. He designed fast cruising boats because of his passion for racing. Anyway I appreciate learning from the thread ...
 
#12 ·
I recently got a very helpful response from Rob (a rigger in Florida who owns an outfit called True North) who owned one for about 18 years. I hope he does not mind if I copy his comments here:
I have sold my Morgan after sailing her for 18 years. She's on the light side for her length. Her standing rigging is sufficient (7/32 and 3/16" D shrouds and stays) for her lower aspect mainsail and masthead rig. She was designed with weekend club racing and over-nighters in mind.
I have sailed her thru 30 knots and 8 foot seas. Because she is( by her then standards) light displacement and narrow beam she is a bit more tender. The roller boom was horrible, a single line reefing system would do well to improve handling. Running rigging for main and vang along with the job furler into the cockpit makes her easier up handle because decks are relatively narrow. Her motion in a seaway is often less comfortable (magnified by her light displacement) than similar sized boats with more beam.
She sails beautifully.
She would not be my first choice for lives board or lengthy cruises...but I loved her and would sail her just about anywhere...probably not to Bermuda...although she did sail there and back.
 
#13 ·
I think that the biggest difference between these two boats is that the M 33' was designed more for coastal cruising, "weekend club racing and over-nighters " whereas the SC line of boats was built to be blue water capable from the get go.
Here is a review of the SC 31' but I imagine that the same build quality went into the 28'. The double-ender design is used for all (or most) of the SC line and is supposed to be helpful in following seas.
Southern Cross 31 Review : Bluewaterboats.org

Interestingly you will not find a review of any Morgan sailboats on the bluewaterboats.org website but builders like Pacific Seacraft are well represented with their smallest, the Nor'sea 27' (also a double ender design) included in the list.

As is often said on this forum, with older boats it becomes more about how well a boat was maintained than the initial build quality. The "blue water" corollary might be that ocean going boats need re-fitting more frequently and should be more heavily rigged than their inshore counterparts. Simply adding heavier rigging to a coastal cruiser may not be enough to make it suitable for ocean cruising if the hull and chain plates can not take the extra strain. Everything about a "blue water" boat is supposed to be overbuilt and designed to be that way which is why I am still hoping that one of the heavyweight design people who are on this forum chime in.

Sounds to me as though you already own the Morgan 33' but are eyeing the SC 28'. If you own both right now then you have been badly bitten by the bug.

None of this is to say that you could not take a M 33' to Hawaii or down to the Panama Canal etc. but if I had to be caught out on the ocean in horrible weather I'd (ideally prefer to be on shore) prefer to be in a boat designed to handle the abuse the ocean can throw at it - and that would be the SC.
 
#14 ·
I think you will find that most success long term ocean sailors did a full re-rig before setting out. This included all new wire and often upgrading to a larger size. Also includes new chain plates again upgrading to larger. I have never heard of any successful multi-year ocean sailors who just jumped on an older boat with original rig and sailed for years. I have heard of folks who have tried and lost their rig or rudder etc.
The loading and unloading happens thousands of times per day. Stuff breaks. A typical New England sailor may sail 100 hours a year (20 days at 4 hours per day plus a trip to block island). A one month passage would equal seven years of that kind of usage. It could be argued that the wear could dramatically exceed that wear however. If you do mostly 4 to 6 hour day sails how often are you going to sail in 30 plus knots. On a passage you may have to spend a few days in 35 to 40. Not big deal the boat an you will do fine, you will even make some good time but the stress on the rig will be higher.

So one year of full time sailing can for some boat equal 10 years coastal day sailing.
So from your point of view if you are serious about this just what kind of condition is going to be your minimum?
 
#15 ·
David, Thanks for that very good perspective!

In this particular case (M33) the boat came with new larger stays, and a better mast/boom setup, so some of the structural/operational aspects of the M33 have been addressed, however the manner of handling the seas is of some concern to me. I am also a little concerned about the unsupported spade rudder, having heard rumors of such rudders been torn off in less pleasant seas and wind.

I have also been having some good interchanges via email with Jerry, the guy who sold me the M33. (We consider it "our" boat since he clearly has his heart still in the boat as well, and somehow I see myself helping fulfill his dream of getting this beauty going.) In any case, I think he also has an interesting point (in deciding between the two boats), that being that I should simply go out there and "do it" irrespective of the boat and then figure out the right way forward once I get a better idea of what I want, and even if the cruising life is really for me! He relates stories of friends who have done it and hated the life and others who went the other way. He also mentioned that he has never found a boat that was perfect, and that rather it is a process of refinement.

Of course the chosen boat needs to be configured appropriately, so as not to fail at the first sign of a strong gust and large waves.

I have sailed the SC28 in some pretty strong winds in "The Slot" in the SF Bay, although I should have shortened sail (25-30 kn winds is my guess? Only one other boat was out), she was well balanced and did quite nicely (albeit a bit slow due to having not shortened sail - a good learning experience) And I had a blast sailing her out the Gate (SF Bay) in storm swells that were 10-15' high (maybe more? The bowsprit tapped the tops of the waves as I would drive into them, and the waves were so high that they totally hid the Golden Gate Bridge! This was the bad day - or maybe the day after? -that one of the race boats smashed up on the Farallons in which some folks died, a very sobering event.), and it was exhilarating though! But the SC handled it very well, and it took me an hour or so so start feeling comfortable with the manner in which she eased over the large swells, totally dry! (For those interested, I have a short description of this trip on my web site: geotestunlimited dot com under the drop down section"Fun Stuff". It was a blast!)
 
#16 ·
http://www.geotestunlimited.com/?page_id=146

Hello, my name is Anders and I'm a boataholic!

Do you need to update your SailBoats page to add the Morgan 33'? That would bring your fleet of keel sailboats up to a total of 3: a Pearson Ariel (26'), Southern Cross 28' and now Morgan 33'. Since you seem to split your time between the left and right coasts one extra boat can be forgiven, but now you have 3! What were you thinking?

It seems that one of your goals is to sail to Norway, presumably from Maine or thereabouts. Given this information I think you know which boat I'd choose for such a trip, given your choices. You would likely be going through the Irish Sea and North Sea, or perhaps the English Channel on the way to Norway. Those waters have quite a reputation. Even commercial shipping takes the North Atlantic seriously, especially in winter: Waterline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#17 ·
Hey Caleb,
Well, really you have it wrong, I have 4 sailboats :) I don't really talk about the Cape Dory Typhoon - what a beautiful boat, but it is a bit small. I am planning to sell the Cape dory (reducing my ship stable to 3) and then I have this quandary about which I should unload next. The Ariel is in Maine, and the M33 and SC28 are in CA... But I would much rather they were on this coast (yes, eventually to sail one of them to Norway). Life IS so difficult! :) As far as thinking goes... I guess I try not to :-(
Do you know of anyone on the West Coast that might want to buy a CD Typhoon?
 
#18 ·
Anders,
You are cracking me up! You have rocks in your head! More power to you if you can afford a fleet of 4 boats.

Actually I think that you have an eye for boats. I also really like the look of the CD Typhoon. We had an informal race with one this past summer on the Hudson River. The Typhoon kept pace with us until we peeled off to head to our mooring after a race. I got a good look at it's lines and those cute round ports on the cabin. If I had to have a smaller boat the CD Typhoon would be near the top of my list but I'm on the east coast so I can't help you with finding a buyer.
The Pearson Ariel is also a boat I'd also consider owning. Both of these models are from the time when fiberglass boats were starting to make big inroads in the market. My Tartan 27' is like a distant cousin to both of them in some ways.

Good luck selling the CD Typhoon. Once she is sold you can fix up the SC 28' for your trip to Scandinavia and bring it around to the east coast. Once the SC 28' makes it to Norway you will have 3 boats in 3 different ports. Much more respectable!!!

I guess there is some money on metamorphic rocks, eh?
 
#19 ·
Thought I would chime in to let you know I went through the same dilemma. Years ago, my wife and I searched and tried every boat under 36 feet for a good pocket cruiser that could take us anywhere. We chartered many and sailed with friends but we kept looking the smaller because once friends shared their cost of a refit, smaller makes sense.

We sailed a Morgan for a weekend but was unimpressed. Guess I really didn’t like getting shoved around SF Bay by big following waves so that turned me towards a double ender and the Southern Cross series. We watched a sailboat 100 yards away get shoved towards the rocks and another wave put the spreaders in the water. From that day, we started the double ender search . . .

I read the Donna Lange and Pat Henry stories and was impressed so we started looking for a Southern Cross. It took us a year to find a SC28 on the west coast but for what we wanted and it required a lot of work. We started by removing the 12hp Universal diesel and replacing with a Beta 16. We added a new transmission, prop shaft, prop, control panel and all the wiring. After that, a new charging system, inverter, rigging (still cutter rigged), windlass, all lines aft, new sails, etc . . . it took us four years but we finished last year.

It was well worth the effort! She sails very well and turns heads everywhere. We took her out once in 35 knot winds with 18 foot seas and it was rough but she was balanced and handled great. We posted a picture headed south from SF Bay - look in the Cruising photos for “Monterey Bay Bound”.

Anyway, in short, we made the correct decision. We wanted a double ender and a smaller pocket cruiser that kept the budget down. Good luck . . .
 
#20 ·
Joe,

Thanks you so much for your input and comments! That is exactly the sort of advice that I have been seeking. I think that the general concensus, from a number of persepctives is that the SC28 is more suitable than the M33 for cruising. People feel that the M33 is a more elegant boat, but that she is not quite as seaworthy as the SC28. I have had two experienced comments over the years (comments of any sort are somewhat difficult to drum up.) that address the possible undesireable behavior in following seas, and so your voice added to the voice does sort of put the clincher on the whole affair

I guess for me it has been difficult to turn my head away from the beauty of the M33 and all the new stuff that mine has come with!

So thanks again for takign the time to comment - Anders
 
#21 ·
Every boat has it limitations. It seems a bit unfair to assume that a Morgan 33 could not go out in 30-40 know winds and come out ok. I believe if you prepare for those occasions, reefing or stom jib would suffice and keep you relatively safe and secure. Smaller sailboats have done so and wet or dry you all know you'll be in for a ride. I am thinking of buying a M33 and doing long distance cruising. I believe if I prepare the boat and do a complete shakedown and stock it for the long haul, I will have more interesting things to talk about afterwards. Live, love, and learn.
 
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