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Reefing a headsail???

11K views 32 replies 15 participants last post by  AdamLein 
#1 ·
In perusing ads and lists for a used jib, I find a few that have listed reef points. Looking up reefing jibs, there's a lot of opinions and few answers. seems that some say it can't or shouldn;t be done; some say it can!?!?!

I'm trying to find an OEM sized jib for the W27 for next season. Should have a "foot" of near 11 or so feet (100%). Scant listings on (decent) OEM-types; but lotsa Genny's available @ 13- 16' foot; some with reefing points.

Roll/flaking a jib up to some point on the sail to reef it would make a rather large, unwieldly sack of sail the the bottom..wouldn't it? Reefing a jib so in an emergency situ I could see' but for/in common use when ya need a smaller headsail??

Don't have a wish..or $$ for a furling rig, so offering that advice is not the answer , thanx :D
 
#3 ·
Squidd's scenario is your ideal, esp with hanks or a foil.. where we've made good use of a 'reefable' jib was with our smallest working jib (ie 90%) - on a previous boat we had a single reef in that sail, it was nice to have that 'next step' when we were down to a double reef main and the working jib already. Such sails, esp on a 27 footer are not large, so the 'rolled up tube' of sail at the foot when reefed is not that big a deal.

We left the original tack fitting connected, moved one sheet to the reef clew, then lowered the halyard, attached the reef tack and sheeted in all during a 'slow tack'. Then rolled up the extra sail into as tight a tube as possible and tied it all in. This does have to be fairly secure or it can shake out on the tacks. To unreef we reversed the process. It worked quite well for the relatively rare occasions we needed it - we were glad to have it.
 
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#4 ·
Try Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies - Discount Sailing & Boating Supplies - a local shop here in Annapolis area. They have scads of used sails for sale.
Visiting them for a shopping day is a good thing to do as they have all kinds of used stuff for sail.

On the Chesapeake most days you will want a 130 or so, but if you can only get one in your budget go with a 90 or 100%.

Unfortunately the price of hank on as opposed to furling is you must carry a suite of sails to meet the conditions you'll meet on the water.
 
#5 ·
Faster;
That was the sort of report I was hoping for. :D

Yes, Chuckles; been to the Bacon's site. That's where I collected prices and options/dimensions. I had contact w/a fella in Conn. that has a Neil Pryde jib that is just under, by inches, an OEM sail. W/bronze hanks and in virtually new condition. He wants $150, and i guess shipping. Sounds like a deal ;) but I wonder if I'll find something closer to the season..one of those "free" sails would be nice LOL

Looking into reefing, as all the Chessie sailors know, WX is variable and I'd like the option of reducing sail without the added expense of a storm jib. Then again... the *is* that spare, nasty main that could use some trimming ;)
 
#6 ·
I have thought about putting reefing cringles in one of my jibs. As I see it, the biggest advantage is that you can have one less sail onboard. On a 27 foot boat, that might make a difference. Make sure the clew is not cut too high, otherwise the reefed 'sausage' will be scooping air. If the reefed position is your storm sail, make sure it is constructed to take a beating.
 
#7 ·
It works, and it IS done, but it's not really a great way to roll.
I have a 30 year old boat, and apparently the original sail (a number 2 130)... Yep, the #2 is a 130... on my boat, pretty much you sail with a 155 all the time full crewed up, and you drop down to a 130 only when you reach 25+. I guess that's the thinking anyway....

Here's a shot of mine.. and I can tell you I've sailed the boat twice with a reefed headsail as you speak (not half furled but reefed). It works... and tidying up the foot is ugly so it's not pretty. But in a pinch it works. One time was when my only crew with me was my 9yo daughter. Went sailing 9 miles downwind to a dock and dine, and when we were done lunch we had a rather nasty turn of wind, to 25+... My little 2.2hp outboard wasn't enough to move us in that, but Lord knows we were able to sail! With this masthead rig the boat barely moved with a reefed main alone, and the outboard full tilt (motor sailing style). So up went the 130, reefed, and we made the beat back up the water almost tolerable... HULL speed the whole way, washing some decking as well! Good times. My daughter now does not fear wind! She still talks of the day we had water spraying over the bow, and washing down the decks!

 
#9 ·
We found a reefable Solent jib quite useful on a Transatlantic voyage and European cruise. The setup was similar to what Shnool's picture shows. When the wind picked up over 25 knots we'd rig a new sheet to the upper clew, ease the halyard (and old sheet) until the new tack cringle was secured up forward, and then tighten back on the halyard and the new sheet. Took about five minutes. The foredeck crew could then run a sailtie or line through the cringles to bunch (bunt) up the loose sailcloth. This setup lowers the center of effort of the sail a lot more than roller-furling does, so helps reduce heeling. Since the sail was relatively small (90-100% of the foretriangle) catching water in the bunt was not much of an issue. The sail was cut to be effective with either tack in use, so there was no issue with the draft of the sail being in the wrong place, or the "roll" messing up airflow, as could happen with a roller-furled "reefed" sail. On a 27' boat you might even be able to rig up a downhaul to the new tack cringle, and not have to go forward to secure it down. We were on an Ohlson 38.
 
#10 · (Edited)
The (relatively insignificant) problems with jibs with 'reef points' are two fold:
1. the large 'overhang' of rolled up foot material that extends 'past' the new reef clew cringle.
2. the need for a 'stout' means to control the jib luff tension (a jib cunningham, etc. affixed to 'strong' reinforcing patches). Without a cunningham-like means to control luff tension ... not the luff itself but the sail material tension immediately behind the luff, you will get 'scallops' between the hanks which will tend to 'permanently stretch' the sail cloth between the hank positions. A jib cunningham on a jib with reef points will help prevent this.

The use of a (slab) reefable jib, etc. is a VERY good way ensure good sail SHAPE, especially needed for going 'upwind' in gnarly conditions. This is a strategic advantage over a roller furled jib that typically can only be 'roller reefed' to approx 30% sail area reduction before the shape -- goes all to hell and you get extreme bagginess in the important luff section and thus lose important 'pointing ability'.

I prefer the jib, etc. reef points to run along at an 'up angle' towards the clew for two reasons:
1. if carefully 'angled' you dont have to reset (much) the fore/aft position of the jib fairlead car.
3. the resultant higher (new) clew position will be 'far above the deck' for less trapping of 'green water'. Another way to state this is the my reef points are arranged so that I effectively change a relatively low clew 'normal' shape into a 'yankee' shape with 'high' clew when deep reefed.
 
#11 ·
I think you will be very disappointed in your boats performance if you only have a 10% sail for the Chesapeake. I would suggest the 130- 135 and find a cheap older 100% as you wont be using it that often.

With Bacons the prices wont go down with the season. They will negotiate, but if the sail which fits your boat is there..it may not be tomorrow, At least there you acn look at it and feel it before buying it.

Dave
 
#12 ·
I think you will be very disappointed in your boats performance if you only have a 10% sail for the Chesapeake.
Wow.. a 10% sail might even have been OK in Sandy ;) ;):)
 
#13 ·
Yeah Chef.. I knew that was a mistype :D
The dims published list the foot whatzis "J" at 10.5' compared to mine at 11'. The seller sez the thing is a 110% and the "clew to clew" dim is 16 feet! He cpuld be measuring JP";but I don;t think that number wou;d be that far off from "J". Huge diff there; so I don;t know what it'll be. The 110 for a Starwind 27 might be nearer to my "j" dim. Pryde doesn't list sizes unless you request a quote. If its actually 16 feet, it'd be near to a 145% genny! Hence the "reefing" question. I'm not sure I'd be OK learning with that much cloth ahead ;) But for a little better than a C-note, it's all good :D
Bacons' had a few near to 100-110% but hank-ons in my price range were shot and had huge repairs..if done at all. "As-new" or better grade used are close to 70% of the price of new. More'n I wanna spend ta learn on! A 100%'r is fine w/me. I need ta go slow till I learn ta go fast! :D
 
#16 ·
Seller was on CL ; but sez he's in Conn. Didn't list the boat in ad, I hadda ask him, He gave me dimensions but the sail bag is marked 110% and neil Pryde on sail, Sez it has bronze "bullet" hanks and is in "used a couple tomes one season" shape. Pix he sent to my phone looked like it; but how can ya tell on a phone ? ;)
 
#17 · (Edited)
Well...... I go t the sail last week. Seems the BAG is a Neil Pryde and has 110% listed onnit; but the sail is another story. Remnant of glue from a formerly there name patch; circular about 6 inches..any clue?

It *is* in great shape, hardware's good and the hanks are as advertised. WHile that's all good, the foot *is* what he sent me, dimension-wise; a measured 16'-3". Doing the math; it looks like I am the new owner of a 150% Genoa!! :eek:

Before going all hysteric and sending it out for modifications....

I *do* have a spare main...P 30 X E 10.75 ft.Looks like it might have a reef point at approx 25% or four feet up the luff. The loops/hoops that fasten the sliders uses a thru-bolt. I *could* use garden variety s.s. spring clips or carabiners to hank it on and use the leech reef point for the sheet; then just reef the reamaining triangle into a roll and tie off.
Balance would be 140 +/- sf as compared to 187sf for a 100 %. Roughly an 75%'er.

Another option would be to hoist the entire main (albeit, backwards!) higher and use a cable bridle to attach the tack to the deck plate?? to get the clew up off the deck. The 36' something forestay wouldn't care; would it?? ;) Ends up at 86% of I/J

Might be a tad goofy; but would do for a reduced/storm/learning jib?? I'd hate ta get caught out..as a noob.. with that much (150%) canvas up ta start with.

IN the meantime, I'll keep my eyes peeled for a *real* 100% +/- jib! ;)
 
#22 ·
....WHile that's all good, the foot *is* what he sent me, dimension-wise; a measured 16'-3". Doing the math; it looks like I am the new owner of a 150% Genoa!! .
If you actually measured the length of the foot, that is not what you measure to determine the size of the jib, you need to measure the LP or luff perpendicular, the length perpendicular from the luff to the clew...so the sail should turn out to be a good deal less than a 150%.
 
#18 ·
Don't even bother trying to "repurpose" a mainsail as a genoa... Everything will be wrong about it.

By your description of the glue dot it sounds like it could be a North sail but I think Sostadt had a circular logo too.

Keep looking and try out this sail on the calm days. Please.... ;)
 
#24 ·
As an aside. When you furl a a genoa, the C of E goes higher and forward - exaxctly the wrong direction.

I used to use a boat with a slab reefing jib. It was great. I remember beating in 35 knots (with few waves, no fetch). No problem. Double reefed main.
 
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#26 · (Edited)
Thanks Rich;

I'm having some trouble digesting the text stating; " The LP defines the sail size in terms of percentage increase beyond the J measurement as in the following examples." with the chart immediately below. It shows, under the "LP" column, a direct correlation to unit "J" past the "I" line.
It appears that roller furlers need the "LP" figure to relate the amount of sail exposed, as that's the direction of reduction; but regular (geometric term) foresail calcs rely on straight "J" numbers.
Am I missing something??
Doesn't the "IJ" fore-triangle calc describe a geometric area potentially filled by a headsail at 100% (not necessarily the actual measurements)? As I was led to believe, the increase in percentage was a function of the amount of the (base/"J") jib triangle passing the mast (height/"I") of the theoretical/geometric right triangle??
 
#31 ·
Its really VERY SIMPLE once you define 100%LP dimension that equates to the "J" dimension. Once you arrive/calculate (or do this 'graphically') all further dimensions will be directly proportional (ratio'd). Eg. a 120% LP will have is 'foot dimension' at ~120% of the 'J' dimension. .... you just have to first establish the 100% LP dimension in relation to the J dimension, .... first.
 
#27 ·
Hmmm. Just lose the concept that the genoa size relates to the foretriangle area - it does not. It relates solely to the LP relationship to the J. If you do the geometry, a 100% genoa will have an area equal to the (square root of (I squared plus P squared)/I) times the foretriangle area. So if the measurements of a W27 are:

I J P E
34.75ft 11.00ft 29.00ft) 10.75ft

then the area of a 100% jib will be 1.05 times the foretriangle area of 1/2*IP or 529 sq. ft.

I think.
 
#29 ·
Hmmm. Just lose the concept that the genoa size relates to the foretriangle area - it does not. It relates solely to the LP relationship to the J. If you do the geometry, a 100% genoa will have an area equal to the (square root of (I squared plus P squared)/I) times the foretriangle area. So if the measurements of a W27 are:

I J P E
34.75ft 11.00ft 29.00ft) 10.75ft

then the area of a 100% jib will be 1.05 times the foretriangle area of 1/2*IP or 529 sq. ft.

I think.
529 ft² sounds big for a 100% jib on a 27-foot boat. Isn't P just for the mainsail?

I would think jib area is LP * Luff / 2. If Luff = forestay length, then for that boat it's

100% * 11.00 ft * sqrt((34.75 ft)² + (11 ft)²) / 2 = 200.5 ft².
 
#28 ·
I think SF has it... if your boat has a J measurement of 12 feet, say, and if you drew a line through the clew at 90 degrees to the luff (ie LP) and it measured 18 feet, that's a '150%' genoa
 
#32 ·
Ummmm... yessssss.. 592 ft/2 is more than entire sailplan PLUS the wetted surface of the hull ! ;)
So then, the discussion is the manner in which I calculate the jib ....OK; but the OP was about reefing. Does it matter if I wanna reef a 150% genoa or a 145% genoa?. Any way ya slice it, it's still too damm'd big ta suit me... being a novice and all :D

Tastes great....less filling!
For all intents and porpoises... same-o, same-o. I don't feature being knocked down; whether it's a 150 or a 140. JUst hafta wait and see what the learning curve is... *THEN* get knocked down! LOL

thanx guise
 
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