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Old 04-27-2012
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keel shoe crack

I am looking at a Nonsuch that I really like and want to buy There is a concern that I have about a horizontal crack along the line between keel and shoe. The owner hit a rock that left a dent on the keel Quite visible I have no access to the inside of the boat to check the bilge and keel bolts as the boat is still under winter cover and locked. Owner said no worries He did some patch work on crack I will try to attach some pic. I am new to this site and do not know how to do it yet. Any comments welcome. Thanks

Last edited by bvio; 04-27-2012 at 10:21 PM. Reason: attach pic
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Old 04-27-2012
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Re: keel shoe crack

Welcome to sailnet! pics are best posted by using a service like photobucket
"Buyer Bware!" a hard grounding or hitting a rock can cause more damage then assumed by those that think they know what they are talking about. Loose bolts, cracked or compromised keel stub, damage to stringers are just a few things.
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Old 04-27-2012
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Re: keel shoe crack

thanks for the tip on posting pic. That is what I am afraid of. Owner is very open about it and has no concerns He sailed the boat two seasons in this condition. Will a surveyor be able to detect any of those major damages based on pictures I have take and having access from bilge?
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Old 04-30-2012
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Re: keel shoe crack

Walk
Walk
Walk

There is enough trouble in the world without buying it.
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Old 05-10-2012
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Re: keel shoe crack

The keel loss on the Cynthia Woods in 2008 is the only big failure that comes to mind in some years. These are pictures from the recovered keel.

Notice that the keel tore a piece out of the hull bottom; the pink stuff is fiberglass. It appears to me that the backing plates should have been about 3x that wide and the fiberglass should have been about twice as thick. This is a pretty obvious design flaw.

However, on a Nonsuch I've heard of at least one keel breaking lose without damaging the hull bottom. I'm guessing the hull bottom where the keel attaches on a Nonsuch is a bit beefier than this.
Attached Thumbnails
keel shoe crack-keel1-crop.jpg   keel shoe crack-keel1-crop-end.jpg   keel shoe crack-keel2-crop.jpg  

Last edited by brehm62; 05-10-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 05-10-2012
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Re: keel shoe crack

Nonsuch 30 and up hulls are balsa cored to within about 18" of the keel. The sheer forces of a significant strike could separate the balsa from the laminate. A high number of these boats already have wet core in the bottom so a hard hit could do significant damage.

You may want to Do Your Own Marine Survey to separate the good from the bad before you spend money on a surveyor.

Nonsuch's also have some very questionable propane installations so reading
Safe Boat Propane Systems before putting in an offer may help.

Good luck
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Last edited by boatpoker; 05-10-2012 at 10:48 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-15-2012
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Re: keel shoe crack

Quote:
Originally Posted by brehm62 View Post
The keel loss on the Cynthia Woods in 2008 is the only big failure that comes to mind in some years. These are pictures from the recovered keel.
I would beg to differ. Years ago a keel falling off was unheard of, while today it has become almost commonplace, especially on high end race boats. Look at the Vendee Globe and other round the world races - lost keels are nothing new.

The first time I recall hearing about it happening was Drum, Simon LeBon's maxi, built for the Whitbread. In the past 15 years or so it seems to have become regular news.

Personally, I think the tiny mounting surfaces of the new style extreme blades is the cause of it - there simply isn't enough area to properly mount a huge cantilevered blade with all the weight in the bulb at the tip. My own 43' boat has a mounting flange a foot wide and 10 feet long. Nowadays a 75 footer wouldn't have that much bearing surface for a much more extreme keel.
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Old 05-15-2012
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Re: keel shoe crack

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I would beg to differ. Years ago a keel falling off was unheard of, while today it has become almost commonplace, especially on high end race boats. Look at the Vendee Globe and other round the world races - lost keels are nothing new.
A lost keel actually has nothing to do with my post. The Cynthia Woods is the only catastrophic failure that I have heard of in years. When they lost their keel it was because it tore out a piece of the hull bottom and allowed the craft to flood. A break outside the hull structure is a very different thing.

Quote:
The first time I recall hearing about it happening was Drum, Simon LeBon's maxi, built for the Whitbread. In the past 15 years or so it seems to have become regular news.
I read "Taking the Helm" by Dawn Riley who captained a Whitbread racer on the first all women's team. Just from memory, during that race they broke their rudder three times and had to reinforce a section of hull that was flexing. Another racer actually cracked the hull, and another broke the mast. Why would you talk about a design that has been engineered to the brittle edge of failure for the sake of gaining 1/10th of a knot over the competition?

The Cynthia Woods was not competing in extreme conditions and there was no reason for the failure. For the Maxi and Whitbread boats, failure is built into the design.
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Old 05-15-2012
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Re: keel shoe crack

Quote:
Originally Posted by brehm62 View Post
A lost keel actually has nothing to do with my post. The Cynthia Woods is the only catastrophic failure that I have heard of in years. When they lost their keel it was because it tore out a piece of the hull bottom and allowed the craft to flood. A break outside the hull structure is a very different thing.
Agreed - I didn't get your point making that distinction.


Quote:
I read "Taking the Helm" by Dawn Riley who captained a Whitbread racer on the first all women's team. Just from memory, during that race they broke their rudder three times and had to reinforce a section of hull that was flexing. Another racer actually cracked the hull, and another broke the mast. Why would you talk about a design that has been engineered to the brittle edge of failure for the sake of gaining 1/10th of a knot over the competition?
My point exactly - they are over the top. In the first Whitbread, the winner Sayula was rolled 360 degrees at least once and came up, rig intact, and kept racing to the win - THAT'S how an ocean racer should be built. Too bad Olin & Rod Stephens are gone.

Quote:
The Cynthia Woods was not competing in extreme conditions and there was no reason for the failure.
I understood that Cynthia was a fairly extreme build - no? Granted, from the reports, it sounded like poor repairs were at least largely to blame for the incident.

Quote:
For the Maxi and Whitbread boats, failure is built into the design.
Ain't that the truth. Those extreme, fragile, edge of the envelope builds are fine for buoy racing, AC racing etc. where help is immediately at hand when they break up but they are nothing less than irresponsible in deep water, the Southern Ocean etc.
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Old 05-16-2012
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Re: keel shoe crack

Poor repairs were BLAMED. Funny, after the people doing the repairs consulted the manufacturer for recommendations. A friend of mine was one of the survivors of that incident.

David
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