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Old 08-08-2009
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Coastal Cruising vs. Open Ocean

Well I've read many threads about this topic and still can't decide what I'm looking for. I live on Puget Sound and have sailed it frequently in my co-owned 1999 MacGregor 26. I have learned to sail in her and I know that I want more boat.

I want a boat with wheel steering and enough room, both in the cockpit and below to stand up and be comfortable in at the dock or on the hook. We have a beach house near Garabaldi (Tillimook Bay) on the Oregon Coast and I want a boat that can get me from Olympia through the Straights of Juan de Fuca and down the coast. That said, I also have a dream of sailing to San Francisco (family there too) and ultimately to Hawaii. This is where I get conflicted.

The Hawaii part is a bit of a pipe dream, but I really do plan to do the West Coast part on a regular basis (i.e. every summer). I am a teacher and although I don't make a lot of money, I do get about six full weeks off each year. I have no experiance with engines or electrical systems, but I am trying to learn. I am thinking of taking some classes at our community college to improve these skills, and I have some great books.

My budget is about 110K which will leave me with 10K for repairs and upgrades. A full keel is good for the coastal/blue water parts, but will make getting to some parts of the Sound difficult and I need something that will sail decently in light air, but take a blow going down the coast.

Any ideas or advice would be most appreciated. I am 2-3 years from this purchase (using the proceeds from my house to buy the boat) but the marinas in my area have a 2-3 year waiting list so its not too early.

I am looking at boats in the 33'-38' range. I am nervous about any boat older than the mid-80's (is that a well founded fear?) What is some equipment that I must have for coastal cruising? How many hours on a diesel before it needs a rebuild/replacment?

Thanks in advance for any input!
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Old 08-08-2009
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camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
Pradis...if you believe you will be making regular passages up and down the left coast...you need a blue water boat as that is an inhospitable coast that sees some of the worst conditions on the planet and has few safe harbors.

I don't know what you mean by a full keel making some parts of the sound inaccessible but full keel boats generally have less depth than fin keel boats of similar displacement. The light air performance is typicaly an issue though since full keelers are generally heavily built.

You budget is way out of whack. If you have $120k in total...and are looking at 80's and 90's boats then you should reserve 40k for making the boat seaworthy and doing upgrades.

Check out the blue water boat list sticky at the top of this forum for suitable boats. My suggestion would be to get a medium to heavy blue water boat that is well behaved under sail even if it is slow in light winds. Get a spinnaker if you need help for light airs...but make sure the boat is well suited for the heavy stuff.

Diesels vary considerably...well used and well maintained they can last for 10,000+ hours. Sitting unused, or not well maintained they can give up the ghost and need a complete rebuild in just a few thousand hours. Always get a diesel guy to go out on sea trial to inspect the engine/tranny performance as a rebuild will cost $5-7k and a replacement will run $15-20k in a cruising boat.

Good luck in the hunt.
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Blue Water Vs. Open Ocean

Thanks so much for the reply. I knew I had read the 40% part somewhere. That will make things tough, but at least I know what I'm up against.
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Old 08-08-2009
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You might want to look at a CS36 'Traditional'. They are well-built, comfortable and sail well. Excellent for any coastal work and certainly capable of the occasional bluewater foray. The following is a fairly descriptive review (from Close Reach I believe).

Quote:
The CS36 is a remarkable yacht and quite unusual for this side of the Atlantic. All the more remarkable is that it is built by a small company in Brampton, Ontario and it's the biggest thing they've done so far. It takes no time at all to recognise that this is some of the best series production being done anywhere.

Boat-building at this level is not a function of novices. CS has been busy since about 1961 turning out boats in increasing sizes. Before they introduced the CS27 in 1975 their products had good quality but were fairly ordinary. The 27 deserved the attention it got as a boat with very interesting design features. It was an unusual looking boat, and still is, but it showed unusual crew comfort in a moderately fast boat.

Ray Wall, who drew the 27 while he was employed with Camper and Nicholsons, is also responsible for the CS36. Now, however, he is in the CS Brampton plant supervising construction and working on future models. The kind of experience Wall brings to CS is hard to come by. He began his apprenticeship with the famous Robert Clark whose distinctive designs won him admiration for many years. His second peer, Colin Mudie, also seems to have had some influence on Wall, which can be seen in the care that has gone into the overall cohesion of the style and detail; witness his treatment of galley fiddles, and the way the joinery and furniture fit into the interior hull moldings. Wall worked on his own for a period before joining Camper and Nicholsons.

The aim of the design was pretty standard: 36-ft cruiser/racer with good accommodations. How many dozens of yachts claim to fill that bill? Yet, as Wall said, "This is a category everyone wants to fill, but surprisingly there aren't many around with really good accommodations."

A capsule description of the interior _ teak joinery, fibreglass modules, teak-and-holly sole _ doesn't do it justice. As one would expect, it's the designer's particular talent that turns an ordinary concept into something deserving close attention. There is nothing unusual about the layout.

A glance at the interior plan will show that Wall has followed fairly standard practice here. But a walk through the cabin demonstrates the importance of first-class design and attention to human proportions. It's not so much the way the interior looks as the way everything, including hand-holds and elbow room, seems to be just in the right spot. This is a cabin that can be lived in even though it has only the basic elements of a standard interior for a 36-footer.

Extra details it does have. For example, the forward cabin is usually considered adequate if it has some drawers under the bunks. Here Wall has designed a set of drawers with cupboard and mirror that will serve the crew well when all five or six are cleaning up for dinner. There's nothing complicated or awkward about it; it just fits right in.

The same attitude is evident in the head. Only a few yachts have a teak sole grating, but there is nothing better for the shower stall. Instead of draining water into the bilge as has been done on some recent designs, the shower sump has its own electric pump. A hand-hold is well-placed near the head, and this head is one of the few with enough knee room to be used underway with the door closed.

The large navigation table is comfortable to use, the shelf space above it is big enough to accommodate radio, Loran and several volumes of reference books. Plenty of natural light reaches the table, probably reflected from the white-fiberglass cabin side.

I could go on and on about the interior but the accompanying photos should give you the picture. One last detail, though: the counter-tops in the galley are stainless steel, the only choice for a serious cook and the lid for the cooler takes up the entire aft side of the galley but is made with hinged sections. There's every indication that electrical and plumbing work has been approached with the same thoroughness.

The whole impression the 36 interior gives reminds me of a remark made by Rosemary and Colin Mudie in their book Power Yachts: that a boat that claims to accommodate a number of people by having that number of berths must also have enough of everything else to accommodate them for the greater part of their time aboard when they are awake. It must have enough standing space, working space, water in the tanks and locker space, not just berths, before it can claim to accommodate four or five or six or whatever number. The interior of the CS36 has been designed on that principle.

It's a relief, in an evaluation like this, to find something I don't like. It isn't serious for such an elegant yacht, but I was disappointed in the appearance of the trunk. It's well-enough proportioned and I can't think of anything that would improve its function, but it just doesn't have the elan the design deserves. On a wooden yacht with large areas of wood deck and well-defined outlines, this low trunk with a row of equal-size portlights would come off looking capable and serious. With the single colour on a fibreglass deck, however, this same row of portlights gives the 36 a squinty look. Giving clearer definition to the edge of the trunk would do a great deal for the boat's appearance, which is otherwise delightful.

Wall is aware of this aesthetic problem and doesn't underrate it. On the boats shipped to Europe, a wide, dark band will be used along the cabin side and the portlights will be the non-opening variety, suitable for cooler weather. In North America, however, opening portlights are essential, and the type required don't lend themselves to that colour treatment. The possibility of putting a narrow stripe along the upper edge of the trunk is being considered.

On a yacht this size, where the cabin trunk is a good 12 ft or longer, seeing over it is a rare pleasure. This isn't a problem on the 36, because although the cockpit seats don't feel particularly high, visibility forward is good. There is a choice to be made where the cockpit layout is concerned. Some, more serious about racing, may prefer to have the mainsheet track separate the cockpit into two sections. Otherwise, the track crosses the cabin top forward of the companionway hatch.

Fittings everywhere are excellent. The turning blocks at the base of the mast which carry halyards back to the cockpit are typical. Something we may see more of on yachts this size is the Proctor Sidewinder_a winch for driving the spinnaker-pole car up and down the track. Hydraulics are optional on the backstay and the boarding ladder is integral with the stern rail, now that's an interesting combination.

The shape of the 36 underwater is modern in every respect for a hull of moderate displacement. It has a fairly distinct knuckle in profile, a well defined fin on the shallow underbody, and a flat run aft ending in a faired-in skeg.

The rudder is moderately deep. Wall claims "The average owner won't have to feel watchful of the boat's behaviour; it won't feel skitterish in any situation and it will track well under a spinnaker." The day I sailed the boat there wasn't enough air to reveal much about her speed or handling. However, it would have to be pretty awful to jeopardise the boat's overall appeal, and that seems unlikely.

Paul Tennyson, president of CS Yachts, reports that the 36 has attracted a dealer in Holland who expects to offer the boat alongside Camper & Nicholsons and Nautor. The kind of quality we've been used to thinking of as European may begin to be known as Canadian.
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Old 08-08-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pradis View Post
Well I've read many threads about this topic and still can't decide what I'm looking for. I am looking at boats in the 33'-38' range. I am nervous about any boat older than the mid-80's (is that a well founded fear?) What is some equipment that I must have for coastal cruising? How many hours on a diesel before it needs a rebuild/replacment?
Thanks in advance for any input!
Your fears are unfounded - some of the best bluewater boats afloat were built in the 60's and 70's. A lot of production/price boats popped up in the 80's and may not be as seaworthy as some of the earlier boats. Many of the earlier boats are solid fiberglas rather than cored; have throughbolted hull to deck joints rather than glued and stapled and the list goes on. Also, many of them have been re-powered since then and have newer diesels than something from the 80's or newer boats.
If I had the choice of a brand new Beneteau or the like and my dad's old, but very well maintained 1960 Hinckely B40 - it's not even fair to compare the two boats - you can go anywhere in the world in that old Hinckley!
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Coastal Cruising vs. Open Ocean

Good points! I guess I worry about blistering etc. on the older boats. However, your point about construction is an important one. Given my price point, the older boats are more in reach than the newer ones. Thanks again.
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Old 08-08-2009
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Pradis, Check out this advert on CraigsList;
35' offshore sailboat - Jason 35 "Swallow"

Disclaimer:I've sailed once to NZ and twice to Tahiti and FP. One voyage lasting 3 years and the other eleven months. So I have a small bit of open ocean cruising sailing experience. I also lived aboard for 11 years. A couple, friends of mine, bought a hull and deck assembly of a Jason 35 from Miller Marine. The "he" of this couple was best man at my wedding so these are close friends. I checked out the Miller Marine factory for them prior to their purchase (they finished out their boat in California, I live in Puget Sound). I used to work and made my living working FG in boatyards in NZ, Hawaii and California. Too bad Miller Marine is out of business, they made excellent well made sea boats. I do not know this particular example nor do I have any connection with this vessel or seller. If I was looking for a new boat (and your wants are smaller than mine and your buget larger) this boat I would check out.

Hope this helps,
Wiley
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She sure is pretty!

Thanks Wiley. The input is great and very helpful. I will investigate further.

With thanks,
Pradis
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Babas?

I've seen a couple of Baba's and they look really stout. I didn't see them listed on the blue water list. Anyone know about them?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pradis View Post
I've seen a couple of Baba's and they look really stout. I didn't see them listed on the blue water list. Anyone know about them?
I sailed aboard a friends Baba a couple of times back in the 80's - Most of what I remember is that it's a beautiful boat and the woodwork down below is spectacular. Under sail in a bit of a blow, she was rock solid - didn't do well in light air.
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