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  #21  
Old 10-22-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
I am going to jump in and defend Jeff H's posts, which I find very informative, whether you agree with them or not. As I read it, Jeff does not particulary like the extremes in yacht design obtained under the IOR rules. After the '79 Fastnet tragedy, many have spoken out against the extreme designs resulting from IOR, resulting in its demise.

Also, let's face it, there are some objectively crappy boats out there, just as there are with any designed and manufactured item.

Here is a thread where Jeff H recommends a number of boats (no Porsches or Benzes) for a first time buyer, and they sound like wise recommendations (so he could not be accused of criticizing everything):

First time sail boat buyer
Thanks for the old post - very informative. I wasn't attacking Jeff's posts, I agree and noted that they are very knowledgeable. I just had formed the impression that he was rather hypercritical of the vast majority of boats out there, whether for design, construction or other reasons. The ones listed in your repost that I'm familiar with are indeed good boats.

Now I want to see the same thing for boats 30'-36'.
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  #22  
Old 10-22-2011
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Dbltime, if you didn't sell it within 90 days, yes, you're fired. I'll try to be constructively cruel and pick out possible negatives from your post and the Yworld page, but I've never been on a NY Schock 36 so I can't comment on the boat firsthand.

"Full disclosure: I am a yacht broker in Annapolis. Don't hold that against me ;-) as this is my personal boat for the last 6 years.

"absolutely trashed NY 36 with a new rig"
OK, to me this is a problem. A boat that was beaten to death and has been redone in all areas. I have to ask, "best yard" or not, does "reborn" really get credit for anything north of the Bible Belt?

"re-core the decks" One of the most serious possible jobs. Maybe done right, but then again, that also means the PO let it get that bad to begin with, so I have to ask if the PO maintained anything on it.

A new mast? WTF happened to the boat pops into mind. It really sounds like more trouble than someone might want to get involved with, maybe you could put in some chat that puts it all into context, like "Godzilla didn't stomp on it, we just wanted to...": whatever it was? And with that new mast and fin and all, are they exactly to class spec, or is this a boat that needs all custom measuring and rating now?

AND a new boom? I take it back, how many times DID Godzilla step on the boat?

>all new harken hardware< good thing

>6 new Quantim laminated sails<
Not for cruisers, that audience may walk out. Racers? Are going to want specific boats.
I'd expect that five year old laminated racing sails, RACED, would be delaminating now and needing replacement. A laminated sail, once it starts to go, makes an ugly sight.

>new foil< Foil as in rudder, or keel? Don't tell me, the old one got broken off? Another concern for a buyer, just what got broke so badly, or why was it replaced? Big $$ issue.

>all new running rigging and hardware< Good

>new fuel tank< Good--except vs YWorld, you've got a tiny tank on there, adequate for daysailing and local cruising but probably inadequate for distance racing (requiring 48 hours of fuel?) and too little for cruisers.

>all new hoses, head, hot water, shower<>re-wired, new panels< Good points

>bottom faired and VC-19< You'd think that was good--but it also means the new buyer can't see what shape the bottom is in. With all the other problems, does the hull have pox? Did it? There's just no way to know now that it has been redone.

>All new: AIS 2X Garmin 8" plotters, A/P, VHF, stereo, wind instruments<
Mixed blessing. Nice that they are new, but I think a lot of buyers would rather pay for NEW instruments of their own choosing--not what you chose "last" year. They're worth something, for sure, but not what they cost you, because of this.

>Awlgripped the hull and decks (hull is red)<
So the hull needed repainting. Not everyone wants red. In the south they want white so the hull is cooler. Red is also the most problem with fading in sunlight. And once a boat has been awlgripped, s the folks at awl say it needs to be recoated every ten years for the rest of its life. I'd rather see an old white gelcoat that just needed some TLC, not a paint job.

>new dodger (companionway, interior cushions, cockpit cushionns< Again, mixed blessing. They're to your taste, but does someone else want to buy "your" new rather than put in their own new? Or do they want to have a dodger at all? I love getting shelter from the sun and rain, but prefer "less stuff" and my own hood/hat, not a dodger at all.

>holding tank....< There again, from YWorld, some folks might say that's a wee one, that the boat lacks serious tankage for cruising. Good choices for 3-day races, but rip-em-out-replace for a lot of folks thinking cruising, or no local pumpout and fuel, etc.

>new Racor, strainers, batteries...Motor is original and healthy. < Great.

> The sails and electronics are worth the price.< Or they're worth zero unless they are what the next buyer wants. So the question is...what buyer wants the boat you've made her into? Someone who is racing in...which fleet again? Is the boat competitive in that fleet? If not, problem. My impression from a little web peeking is that the Schock36 was an early IOR design, not competitive with later designs for racing, and requires all her crew as live ballast. The keel ballast seems light. That could eliminate the racing buyers completely.

Also from YWorld, 6'4" draft counts as deep draft. In LIS that would be perfect, but in the Ches and looking south the Florida waters? Nope, hopelessly wrong keel. You're got to market north of you, which again says "is that boat attractive to racers in the Northeast?" Are there any of them placing well in the fleets, or...as above?

When you mention the sails are easily managed...is she considered undercanvassed for the light airs in LIS and points north?

Running backstays: Discourage cruisers. Is that new rig strong enough so they could be taken off and left off? Is the standing rigging all new? (Which would be a good thing.) Chainplates?

Photo of head, showing bare fiberglass overhead: Discourage cruisers. The interior layout is practical for a stripped out racer--but you've got no interior for the casual cruiser, or family looking for two cabins to split the kids or neighbors. Market for ex-racers that are not still hot racers? Problematic. Big bridge deck, again odd.

And then there's the TILLER on a 36' boat. One more turn-off for the cruisers, you're back to the racing market, which I'd expect to be a much more limited market these days--especially if there's no one clamoring for this particular hull.

So aside from the question of why literally everything major has been redone, I see a limited market for an ex-racer. Which could still make her a bargain for someone, if they're willing to look at all the work that has been done, if the work was all done nicely, and if they're willing to...I don't know, replace all the tankage and install an interior to convert her over to a fast cruiser, perhaps?

Considering the number of popular boats in the same size and price range, without questions of tankage, interior, exotic sails, major replacements....I think you've got a lot of folks who would rather not get involved with uncertainties, who would rather buy a well-known cruiser with a constant resale market (Beneteau, Sabre, C&C, Morgan) instead of a bit of a unique one.


"Should I fire myself?" Only if it has been unsold after 90 days. However, if you've ever played golf you may be allowed one and only one Mulligan on this boat sale. 90 more days. Put something in the add about these hulls, or how they stand in racing today, and especially roll up all the replacements and why that was all done. Salvaged a neglected beauty? Starred in a Godzilla movie? There's gotta be some story behind this, and story sells.

She's a pretty thing, but like Dr. Who's companions, not a very conventional one.

Maybe the target buyer would be someone who is new to racing, can't afford something modern and competitive, but wants a "training boat" that they can use to get into racing, get up to speed, and then move on from?

Last edited by hellosailor; 10-22-2011 at 09:52 PM.
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  #23  
Old 10-23-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
the Schock36 was an early IOR design
Incorrect - the Schock 36 was designed well after the introduction of IOR IIIa, indeed, after many of the multitude of "adjustments" made to IIIa. It was not an early pintail design. It was also intended as somewhat of a one design class so the nods to IOR were less than extreme for the time. FYI, pretty well any IOR boat with a fractional rig is not "early". The enormous genoa / ribbon main rig was the standard for virtually all early IOR boats. I'm not certain, but since it was released in 1980 it may have incorporated some or all the lessons learned from the '79 Fastnet disaster. Perhaps W.D.Schock can weigh in on this.

From reading your list of "negative factors" can I assume you aren't in the market for a restored classic car or a reno'd house either?

In this market, and at this time of year, expecting a broker to move a boat within 90 days strikes me as a bit harsh as well.
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  #24  
Old 10-23-2011
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JonB, if the information I saw on the web was wrong and that hull isn't an early IOR design, old IOR, later IOR, still IOR and IOR hulls are still not considered entirely a positive these days for competitive all-out racers.

When you renovate a house, it comes with real estate and location. An obsoleted racing boat? What can you do with that? Seriously? Are there any IOR designs taking awards in any fleets today? (Don't tell me, there's an "IOR Oldies Classic" series somewhere, there must be.)

A classic car can be enjoyed on the weekend. A 60's or 70's piece of Detroit pig iron is still fun, but I can take it out and enjoy it without much fuss. Especially without needing fuss under the hood, just add gas and oil. And eight buddies who actually WILL show up to help balance the boat.

But an old racing boat? Is it fun to dragoon the six or eight crew (or yeah, get them to show up just for fun) because the boat needs hands and ballast? Or fun to invest in all the boat upkeep and sails, when the boat simply won't be competitive? Who would I be fooling? You want to buy lunch and beer for eight just for fun, even if they CAN be convinced to show up every weekend?

I know, there are fun races and relaxed racing series. Been in some of them with friends for various reasons. Like just getting some fun and air.

But something this big and hungry? And requiring not just two or three crew, but probably the full eight as live ballast? I don't think so. I suspect (and I'd actually like to be wrong) that someone who wants to get into this much boat, is going to want to buy something that's in the top 1/3 of his local fleet, or some fleet, if not higher. Something that stands an even chance of beating her numbers, or competing one-design, or doing more than "fun" racing.

Obsoleted racers are not a new story, they go begging even in good times.

But the 90 days I'm serious about. A friend of mine rehabs real estate. Last home he sold, had 12 offers within 12 hours of the listing. Sold and closed within the first week.

With the internet and web postings, if there's ONE buyer out there, you can hit them within 90 days if you're marketing the boat. And Yachtworld is, after all, probably the most visited place for boat sales. No hits? Then it is either the price, the boat, or there are zero buyers in the market. What's reasonable? To wait six months? A year? "Till the next season starts" ? Dunno. At a certain point the selling price and the storage and maintenance costs (even for a laid-up boat) start to cross, and certain boats get "donated" to various good causes. Where the price may drop again, radically, in search of a buyer.

And while I'd love that classic muscle car...I remember very well how badly drum brakes work in the rain, so if I couldn't find one with front discs? I'd pass on it, unless I could replace them. With a boat? Can't change the hull, can't make more room below...Not all greyhounds and thoroughbreds get put out to pasture in a happy place.

Life isn't fair.
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  #25  
Old 10-23-2011
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Jeff I've really enjoyed reading your old post referenced above. It looks like you have a few folks that would like to to an updated list, what was the size, from 30 to 45 probably divided by coastal to ocean crossing.
Just how many boats have you sailed on?
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  #26  
Old 10-23-2011
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SloopJonB said, “Jeff, I've been reading your posts for a long time now and you are obviously extremely knowledgeable about most or all aspects of the subject of sailboats.

However, having said that and with all due respect, are there ANY boats that you hold in high regard? Other than Farrs of course. You seem to most commonly use terms like mediocre, less than desirable, difficult to handle, poor performer etc. to describe virtually anything you comment on.

My impression of your viewpoint, put in automotive terms, is that anything less than a Porsche or Benz is, to one degree or another, a poor choice.

Can you provide a list of what you regard as "good old boats" that most of us can afford and/or are worth spending time & money on?”


I agree that this is a valid question but one which unfortunately lacks a succinct answer. To begin with I completely understand that when I comment on a boat, it is filtered through my own prejudice towards boats which sail well in a broad range of conditions, which are easy to handle, and which are thoughtfully designed, engineered and constructed.

As I am using the term sailing well is not about absolute speed; It is about sailing reliably in a broad range of conditions, and across the full spectrum of points of sail. It is about pointing, reaching and running, in light and heavy air as well as more moderate wind ranges. It is about being easy to adapt to changing conditions. It is about not excessively pitching or rolling. It is about being forgiving; not having a narrow performance window, and not prematurely knocking down, rounding up, or broaching. It is about not being excessively tender, wet or needing to sail at a large heel angle, or in any other very narrow range of heel in order to perform. It is also about a given boat’s suitability to its venue.

Easy to handle is only in part about hardware and deck layout. To me it’s more about the basics of the design. It is about how easy the boat is to sail in changing conditions or bad conditions with only a small crew rather than a large, skilled racing crew. It is about the ease with which a boat powers up or reliably deals with deteriorating conditions without having to make headsail changes or give up performance. It is about foothold and handholds as you move around the cabin while heeled or bashing into bad conditions. It is about how comfortable the interior is to use at sea, with comfort at anchor being less important.

To me being well designed and engineered is about designing a boat which is designed for the stresses the boat is likely to encounter in its service life, durable and maintainable. This last item 'maintainable' is not one that most folks think about. There are a range of boat buildingtechniques which can produce a solid and durable boat, but any boat begins to wear out over time. Being able to get to fastenings, wire and plumbing chases, being able to easily pull out an engine or chain plates, really can make it much easier and cost effective to own an older boat.

While I do not believe that good engineering is about achieving the lightest possible weight, I also believe that in and of itself weight does nothing good for a boat. Weight does not automatically make a boat stronger, more seaworthy or more seakindly. But weight is more likely to have an inherently negative impact ease of handling, performance, shorthanded capability, initial costs and the cost of maintenance.

Quality Engineering has been a moving target throughout my entire 50 year sailing career, with materials and methods improving nearly linearly throughout this entire period. At this point, in my opinion the keys to good engineering requires well thought through framing and small panel size to distribute loadings and minimize flex, , robust rig and keel support and connections, solid, protected and maintainable hull to deck joints.

When I use the term ‘Mediocre’ I mean nothing exceptional, neither particularly good or particularly bad. Its not as much of a slam as it might sound. But if you are going to rescue a boat from a bygone era, I would suggest that it is cheaper and easier to rescusatate an above average build quality boat and in the end you will end up with something that is more reliable and worth something.

Well design is about the little details, a place to stand at a winch, having decent toerails, coamings and rubrails. It is about minimal liners so that you can repair and replace electrical and plumbing systems, deck and interior hardware.

Well designed is about the way the hull passes through the water. It is about controlling drag. It is about having a balanced and light helm without weather helm or creating a boat that requires constant attention. While tracking is an laudable attribute, I will take a light balanced helm and any day believing that this is easier on the crew and autopilot draw. (I know this is in conflict with historic cruising texts.

And in all that, it is not about gold platers, the Porsches and Mercedes of the sailing world.

And when someone asks me whether a particular boat is a good boat, or when I am trying to evaluate a boat for myself for that matter, I ask “Compared to what?” and my answer is shaped by questions like: Is this a good boat compared to:
- Boats for similar purpose which came before or after?
- Boats if its era?
- Boats of this length?
- Boats of weight?
- Boats of this price range?
- Boats which are available for this owner’s needs?

And so on….

And that gets closer to the question that you are asking. Anyone who has read many of my posts know that I believe that the boating industry tends to be faddish and that there have been design fads and a variety of racing rules that have resulted in compromises to rig design and hull design which has a negative impact on seaworthiness, seakindliness, ease of handling and long term durability.

But even within any given period there are boats, which are better designs and reflects better build quality. So, for example, if we look at the NY 35 in the original post, I would suggest that a J-36 would have been better choice for a project boat than the NY-35. Although of a similar era, similar rig and cabin layout, the J-36 is a better sailing boat over a wider wind range. They have remained competitive under PHRF and so still have a strong following. J-36’s were generally better built and better finished than the NY-36. J-36’s have had some hull delamination issues but the boat in question also required recoring. The J-36 is easier to handle in a breeze and offers better light air performance as well.

Similarly, if we talk about boats of the CCA era, boats like the Sailmaster 23, Grampian Classic 22 (C&C), Pacific Dolphin 24, Morgan 24/25, Tartan 27, Morgan 34, Seafarer Swiftshore 35, C&C 35, Cal 36, Tartan 34, Cal 40, were generally well built boats which sailed much better than their peers (although not necessarily faster).

If we talk about boats from the IOR era, boats like the Ranger 23 (which was actually a MORC boat), Farr 727, Morgan 27, Tartan 30 (which was also actually a MORC boat), Soverel 33 & 39, J-34, X ¾ ton, Dehler 34, Tartan 40, Beneteau First 375, and 42 come to mind as standouts. During the IOR era there are boats like the Peterson 34's which I have a hard time pidgeon holing. These were great designs compared to what came immediately before. At the time they were a revelation. Yet when viewed against some of the better boats which were not designed to a rule, they were hard boats to sail well and ideally were sailed by bigger crews. That said, SailNet member Catamount bought one very cheaply, has done a great job restoring one and has been very succesasful racing her in short handed racing and using her as family cruiser. From my perspective, as good as these boats were, they are very athletic boats to sail, and lack the kind of forgiveness that I prefer in a boat. All boats are a compromise, which may make these a great boat for some, but not one that I would recommend blindly. (I would have similar comments about the Tartan 41 and Beneteau 42 mentioned above.)

During the IOR era, I personally preferred what was happening on the MORC front during the IOR era. The MORC rule produced a crop of great 24-25 boats including the J-24, Kirby 25, Capri 25, Wavelength 24, Lindenberg 26 and 28 and so on as well as a herd of well rounded bigger boats J-30, J29, Kirby 30, Olsen 911, (Alsberg Bro) Express 30, S.2 9.1. These were really well rounded designs for their size and purpose although early efforts and hard racing have taken a toll on many of these. Sill they are all reasonably competitive under PHRF and good all around sailing boats.

If we talk about boats the general size of my boat, there were a whole rash of good boats out there; J-35, J-36, J-37c and J-40c, Frers 33 & 36, Tripp 36, Tripp 37, Farr 1020, Farr 37, Farr 11.6, Express 37. All remain moderately competitive PHRF boats and all are good sailing boats. While I chose the Farr 11.6 because it began life as a cruising design rather than a racing design.

Of this group I personally think that the Express 37 was the best in terms of a mix of performance and build quality. The Express 37’s were generally $20 k more than the Farrs and I could not afford that or else I probably would have bought an Express 37. The later J-35’s had a nicer interior in some ways than my Farr but again, they were more expensive, and lacked tankage. The J-40 is a better cruising boat than my Farr and there are a whole crop of newer boats (boats like the Aerodyne 38, Farr 395, IMX 38/40, or Beneteau 40.7’s are particular favorites) which are better performers than all of these.

I guess that is the basics of how I arrive at my comments. I am sure I have left out some of my own favorite older designs, boats worth messing with, but hopefully this should dispel the notion that I only think that Farrs of a certain era are worth messing with.

Oh, and David, in the past 50 years, I have probably sailed on an average of something like a half a dozen to a dozen different boats in any given year, although much less lately.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 10-24-2011 at 09:23 AM.
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  #27  
Old 10-25-2011
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Thanks Jeff, as always I enjoy your comments.
I personally have raced on a Farr 395.
I was on the delivery return from Bermuda to CT after the Newport race.
I never had such a painful experience.
It sounded like someone was smashing the boat with a sledgehammer. You could hear the fiberglass breaking.
Most of the time in the bunk we were in zero G, airborne.
It was a really rough ride and that was with a crew of 7.
My take was that the hull is shaped like a big surfboard, flat on the bottom.
Taking the waves that were coming our way we were slamming something terrible.
It does has a nice grid system for strength however. The asim pole was gulping down a significant amount of water as it was not meant to be used underwater.

Do you have any rules of thumb you go by to evaluate a boat for a particular purpose based on specs or is it mostly personal experience on the boat?

Last edited by davidpm; 10-25-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 10-25-2011
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JeffH right again. They're pretty - there's one where we're hauled out - but the flat sections forward (IOR rule-tweakers) mean slow going, and pounding in a seaway. The dinette setup might work well for parties. Your best bet may be to simply keep sailing her.
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Old 10-25-2011
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On the bright side, yo've just GOT to love that 360-degree-engine access.
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Old 10-25-2011
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The NY 36 was commissioned by a group of NYYC members as a OD racer under a competitive bid process. The 88 boats were built to a spec and build book commissioned by the NYYC members.

The hull is solid hand laid fiberglass - NY36 hulls never had core issues, because they do not have cores ! The TPI JBosts had well known issues with their hull cores and massive warranty claims.

The boat was intended by the NYYC members not to have the excesses of IOR boats ( especially downwind ). These IOR excesses were recognized at the time of design of the NY 36.

The boat was never intended to be an all out racer, but it was a racer with some civilized characteristics. These days the boats should be a bargain Couple's cruiser.

I always thought it was a great overlooked boat, a bit slow compared to it's full blown racer peers, but the NY36 has a big enough rudder and keel to keep her on her feet.


BTW - The Molds and all tooling are still in reasonable condition.
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Last edited by WDS123; 10-25-2011 at 11:35 PM.
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