Pearson or Endeavor?

[jameswilson29]

Again, no objective, third-party support for your opinion, just more blather.

Your experience and observations are subjective.

Show me 2 written opinions from knowledgeable marine professional(s), just as I showed you.

[jameswilson29]

Originally Posted by sea_hunter

...P's are more like Cal's (and are most compared) in design and build, okay for a fast and fun coastal cruiser, hardly a true blue water boat if compared to an Endeavour...

In addition to having no objective support for your opinion, you are making an error in logic: you are confusing intended purpose with build quality.

I agree most of the Pearsons were designed to be coastal cruisers. A boat designed for coastal cruising could still have a high build quality, compared to a poorly built boat designed for some other purpose, including blue water passagemaking.

As an example, a lightweight carbon fiber racing boat designed for use in protected areas could have an extremely high build quality, even though it is not designed to be a blue water boat.

Correspondingly, a boat designed to be a blue water boat does not necessarily have a higher quality of construction, although it may be built stronger or heavily built - witness the discussions about the Westsail 32 - a brilliant design by Bob Perry - but not always well built by its owners/manufacturers/outfitters.

[sea_hunter]

Originally Posted by jameswilson29

Again, no objective, third-party support for your opinion, just more blather.

Your experience and observations are subjective.

Show me 2 written opinions from knowledgeable marine professional(s), just as I showed you.

Yes, what I write IS my opinion, so what? I see no need to go further. Would a quote from the Dalai Lama help? A note from my teacher? A resume? As you're aware most of the reviews of these boats have turned to dust as many of the boats since they began production in the 60' and 70's. I have read Hornors reviews over the years and personally I find them mostly sales tripe. Like your love of Pearson, Irwin owner's lover theirs too. If this were a battle between Shaw and Irwin, I'm sure the leagues of followers would be equal. If, according to Hornors, the workmanship of Irwins was that bad, why are most of them still around while 1000's of Pearsons have disappeared? Was it that the Pearson's chain plates were defective, they have a crappy (race style) interiors or that they're shoal draft have anything to do with their demise? Where's the validity supporting his comments? The proof in my view is in the last soldier standing. Go ahead though and enjoy your Pearson, but get off your high horse and stop dry humping a dead dog.

[SloopJonB]

Originally Posted by jameswilson29

witness the discussions about the Westsail 32 - a brilliant design by Bob Perry - but not always well built by its owners/manufacturers/outfitters.

Are you just trying to stir up the Westie debate with that comment?

Designer Bob had nothing to do with the Westie, other than to comment more kindly than many about it.

[jameswilson29]

Originally Posted by SloopJonB

Are you just trying to stir up the Westie debate with that comment?

Designer Bob had nothing to do with the Westie, other than to comment more kindly than many about it.

My bad, sorry Bob, if you are out there.

The Westsail 32 was designed by William Crealock.

[newportermike]

Jeez guys, now I am confused! But at the same time it sounds like Endeavor is a good solid boat. I live in RI and Pearsons are revered in this part of the world.

[Jeff_H]

Endeavour's reputation is a bit hard to peg as is Irwin's and Pearson, because they built a lot of boats over a number of years and build quality and sailing ability varied over time. But here is my take on this. I have a lot of experience with early Endeavours since we had two in the family. My sense was they started out as value oriented production boats. They were not terrible, but if corners were cut, it was on things which added to sailing ability, ease of handling and interior details. Visit the factory (as I did in that era), or crawl back into lockers and engine compartment and the glass work was crude but effective. The E 32's I have been on fit this description.

Slowly over the life of the company, Endeavours build quality and finish got much better, especially on the later boats, and the later Johan Valentijn designed boats were also much better sailors. To me, when I hear people talk about Endeavour as a good quality boat it is these later boats that they are referring to.

For what its worth, I know the Endeavour 43's pretty well, and there is little in common with the Island Packet's except the designers name. The E-43's were aimed at providing roomy boats for the charter trade at comparatively cheap prices.

Irwins 32's began life as racer-cruisers. They were simple, unadorned boats. Their finish was nothing to write home about. But the I 32's that I have been aboard, were nicely equipped when it came to deck hardware and performance items like the centerboard. As a result, they were much nicer boats to sail than the Endeavour 32's. Irwins build quality seemed to eventually deteriorate and when you hear Irwin's slammed, I think it is this later period that gave them this reputation. That said, right near the end, Irwin tried to improve the reputation of their build quality.

I also know the Pearson 30 reasonably well. Again, these boats began life as race boats first, and cruiser second. They go upwind extremely well for boats of that era and had huge chutes, which when there is adequate wind to make reasonable VMG dead down wind really allow them to sail extremely well for a boat of that era and also make them fun to sail. It is not that the Pearson 30 is so much faster than the Endeavour 32, after all its only 15 second a mile faster under PHRF, but it is more tactile, with the Pearson feeling more responsive and fun to sail. Pearsons of that era were not any better constructed than Irwins of that era, but they were better built than then Endeavour version of the Irwin. The Pearsons were adequate for the purpose they were intended, and most were reasonably well equipped. Locally these boats have been raced very hard for three decades and I have never heard of one breaking. Like many boats of that era, they do have known issues with keel bolts and rudders, which also have known fixes.

Which brings me back to the original poster. He seemed to like his Pearson 30. In part my advice to him was based on my sense of the relative quality of these boats, but more to the point, on how they are to sail. And if this guy enjoyed sailing his Pearson 30 then the Endeavour 32 would have offered all the thrills of kissing his sister.

Jeff

[sea_hunter]

Originally Posted by Jeff_H

For what its worth, I know the Endeavour 43's pretty well, and there is little in common with the Island Packet's except the designers name. The E-43's were aimed at providing roomy boats for the charter trade at comparatively cheap prices.

I beg to differ. I know both boats intimately. Many boats are charter boats, it doesn't necessarily mean they lack amenities or were built in a sub-standard way. With the exception of older materials, the hull design, layout and sailing characteristics are virtually the same. While the IP465 has a pilothouse center cockpit, they're similar in length the 43 being nearly 50' and 14' compared to 14' 4" with the 465.
Hellier Model Profile: Island Packet 465
ENDEAVOUR 43 sailboat on sailboatdata.com