Pearson or Endeavor?

[newportermike]

I had a Pearson 30 that got severely damaged in a Noreaster and now I am looking at other boats. Can anyone tell me if the Endeavor 32 is a bit of a slug performance wise? I liked the performance of the Pearson and am tending to think I should stick with Pearson. Any input would be helpful.

[Jeff_H]

The Endeavour 32 was a recycle of tooling for the earlier aft cockpit version of the Irwin 32 racer cruiser. The Irwin 32 was actually a pretty nice boat, one of my favorites from that era. Most were keel centerboarders. Endeavour revised and simplified the boat and cheapened the build quality in order to bring it in at a lower price point, including changing ballast material and eventually eliminating the centerboard. As a result, the Endeavour version does not sail as well as the earlier Irwin version of this boat.

Personally, I think that the 1970's era Pearson would be a lot more fun to sail than either the Irwin or the Endeavour versions, but if I lived in a shoal venue, the Irwin would be a pretty appealing option.

[newportermike]

Thanks Jeff, you confirmed my suspicions. I appreciate the info.

[bigdogandy]

I have to respectfully differ with you on the relative quality of the Endeavour versus the Iriwn, Jeff. I owned an Irwin 25, and looked at several Irwin 32's before I bought my Endeavour, and my opinion is that the Endeavours are a step above the Irwins as far as the quality of the build - the fiberglass work is better, the woodwork is better, the winches and other hardware are better, and the interior layout and finish is better on the Endeavours. From what I've seen the boats perform very similarly, with the Endeavour having a PHRF of 189 and the Irwin 180 ( PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps ). I know mine is a blast to sail, singlehanded or with crew. I don't have any personal experience with the Pearsons, but I understand they are great boats and sail very well.

All that being said, how well the boat has been maintained over the last 30+ years will probably have more impact on the quality of your experience on it than anything else. IMHO.

[sea_hunter]

As boats, Endeavour, Irwin (actually the same hull) and Pearson are too close to call in a horse race, but I'd go with the Endeavour. Simply put, better built.

[jameswilson29]

Originally Posted by sea_hunter

As boats, Endeavour, Irwin (actually the same hull) and Pearson are too close to call in a horse race, but I'd go with the Endeavour. Simply put, better built.

This wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you own an Endeavour, would it? (In the interest of full disclosure, I am on my second Pearson.)

What is the foundation for your opinion that Irwin and Pearson are too close to call in a horse race (I am not even sure what this means - are you talking figuratively about sailboat racing or build quality)?

Pearson has been consistently acknowledged as one of the leaders in fiberglass construction, with an above-average build quality, and simple, strong boats. Many 30 and 40 year old Pearsons are still cruising and racing today. I suspect most knowledgeable folks in the marine industries (marine surveyors, brokers, mechanics) would strongly disagree with your opinion equating Irwins and Pearsons.

Can you back up your statement with anything other than your own biased opinion?

[sea_hunter]

Originally Posted by jameswilson29

This wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you own an Endeavour, would it? (In the interest of full disclosure, I am on my second Pearson.)

What is the foundation for your opinion that Irwin and Pearson are too close to call in a horse race (I am not even sure what this means - are you talking figuratively about sailboat racing or build quality)?

Pearson has been consistently acknowledged as one of the leaders in fiberglass construction, with an above-average build quality, and simple, strong boats. Many 30 and 40 year old Pearsons are still cruising and racing today. I suspect most knowledgeable folks in the marine industries (marine surveyors, brokers, mechanics) would strongly disagree with your opinion equating Irwins and Pearsons.

Can you back up your statement with anything other than your own biased opinion?

LOL, ouch.... Well, you've got me there. However, our Endeavour 43 is more closely related to an IP46 than an Irwin or Pearson as it was completely designed by Bob Johnson. Comparing Irwins and Endeavours is kind of a crap shoot as many of the early and boats in the 30 - 35' range of E's had in fact I hulls, some were even Crealocks. The difference was that E spent more time on the hull, hence they are heavier and more rigid. Many of the people at Irwin actually came over from Irwin and the two production facilities were only about a mile apart. Bob Johnson was the shop manager at Irwin and came over to E as production manager-designer. Overall, though E's are definitely better built than I's, in all ways from furniture to hull and topsides.
The build on a Pearson isn't even close. P's are more like Cal's (and are most compared) in design and build, okay for a fast and fun coastal cruiser, hardly a true blue water boat if compared to an Endeavour. I know that there are "lovers" of their own brands, but once you've put your hands on each one of these boats, you'll know the differences.
To put it into perspective; check out Yachtworld, 30-40' range (all pretty much in the same age range), Pearson average selling price (based on first page only); $30K US, Irwin $60K US and Endeavour $80K. BucNet pricing is similar. There's a reason that's obvious once you step on board each of these boats. I hope this helps.

[jameswilson29]

So in summary, you have no basis for your opinion, other than Yachworld prices, which are not necessarily a reflection of build quality.

You missed my point - I was asking for support for your opinion equating Pearson and Irwin (not Endeavor).

Here is a quote from well-respected marine surveyor Jack Hornor (who owns a Pearson 28-2 and whose reviews have been published by Spinsheet magazine and by Boat/U.S.):

"If cost was never a concern of boaters, we would undoubtedly all choose to own boats that were beautifully built, finely finished, fast, and always sailed perfectly balanced. However, in the real world, most of us don't have unlimited budgets and cost is a primary consideration in our purchase decisions. Long ago Irwin Yachts recognized the cost considerations of the average boat buyer and, quite frankly, compromised on the quality of fit and finish to offer boats that were carefully priced, well advertised and widely sold to a very broad spectrum of customers." http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/sail/Irwin37.asp

I am not sure you understand the difference between one man's subjective, unsubstantiated opinion and well-reasoned, objective third-party support for a position.

Again, what is your support for equating Pearson and Irwin? (It is o.k. to admit that you have none.)

[jameswilson29]

Here from John Kretschmer in Used Boat Notebook, p. 81 (2002):

"Still there remains a stigma attached to Irwins because they are not usually considered quality boats."

(Another example of objective third party support for a position.)

[sea_hunter]

Originally Posted by jameswilson29

So in summary, you have no basis for your opinion, other than Yachworld prices, which are not necessarily a reflection of build quality.

You missed my point - I was asking for support for your opinion equating Pearson and Irwin (not Endeavor).

Here is a quote from well-respected marine surveyor Jack Hornor (who owns a Pearson 28-2 and whose reviews have been published by Spinsheet magazine and by Boat/U.S.):

"If cost was never a concern of boaters, we would undoubtedly all choose to own boats that were beautifully built, finely finished, fast, and always sailed perfectly balanced. However, in the real world, most of us don't have unlimited budgets and cost is a primary consideration in our purchase decisions. Long ago Irwin Yachts recognized the cost considerations of the average boat buyer and, quite frankly, compromised on the quality of fit and finish to offer boats that were carefully priced, well advertised and widely sold to a very broad spectrum of customers." BoatUS.com: Boat Reviews by Jack Hornor, N.A. - Irwin 37

I am not sure you understand the difference between one man's subjective, unsubstantiated opinion and well-reasoned, objective third-party support for a position.

Again, what is your support for equating Pearson and Irwin? (It is o.k. to admit that you have none.)

Your response is somewhat expected as your view is obviously gilded by pride in ownership, not experience. A one off quote that's not even in your words does not justify your argument (or argumentativeness), merely someone else's opinion you've accepted that justifies your pride. You requested my opinion in an off handed way and I guess I wasn't clear enough for you. Of the three boats, I put the Pearson last; not because of of price, build, construction, or demand, but because based on my experience, that's where it lands. If you had added Cal into the mix, they would have been last. Are there sailboats better than Endeavour, certainly, worse that Pearson absolutely.
Asking prices are indicative of quality, build and features. Brokers don't arbitrarily drop a number on a boat expecting a buyer to pay whatever. BucNet (used by banks for boat loans), the "black book" of boats bases their pricing on many factors including but not limited to, surveys, insurance buy outs, resale value strength, demand and manufacturer reputation. Pricing IS an indication of over all value, like it or not. Endeavours are pricier, Pearsons not so, Irwins are in the middle; take it as you like.
Now, will a Pearson 35 make it back to club before the Irwin 34 or Endeavour 37; I don't really care. Will I be dry and comfortable doing so, you bet. If you have anything constructive to add, I will gladly engage you; however life is too short to waste it on semantics when I could be boating. Have a good one.