Is it crazy not to get a survey

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dog Ship

It has changed since I last read it but the only difference is you need to have called yourself a surveyor for 5 years prior to testing. Again anyone can call themselves a surveyor.
You are still only required to have 3 years of related marine industry experience to write the test and become accredited.


1. Candidates must be currently practicing marine surveyors with at least five (5) years surveying experience, accumulated within the past ten (10) years, in the field of expertise which accreditation is desired. Credit of up to three (3) years of the five (5) years required may be granted for related marine experience. Acceptability of related marine experience shall be determined by the membership committee and/or Board of Directors.

2. Applicants must affirm that they will abide by the By-Laws Code of Ethics, Standards, official decisions and amendments to such of the Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (SAMS®).

3. Candidates must complete an application form, supply a complete resume and submit for review a number of surveys as may be required by the Membership Committee.

4. Candidates must successfully complete a written and/or an oral exam on their selected field of accreditation as prescribed by the Testing Committee and conducted by that Committee or their designated representative. Cost related to administration of said examination shall be born by the candidates. Examinations will be reviewed by the Testing Committee and submitted to the Membership Committee.

You are confused , the "3 years" refers to acceptance as a "Surveyor Associate" not as an an Accredited Marine Surveyor. Once accepted as an SA you have five years (each year with continuuibg education requirements) to re-apply as an AMS Candiate before you can take the Accreditaion exam. You are also incorrect about the education required. Whether a Surveyor Associate or a fully Accredited Marine Surveyor continuing education requirements go on as long as you are a member of SAMS. Failure to keep up your CE's will result in expulsion from the Society.

I suggest you go through the application process. I think you'll find it much more rigorous than you believe.

[SloopJonB]

Originally Posted by bljones

Depends upon the current market value of the boat. sinking $13K into a $5K Hinkley would put you well ahead, wouldn't it?

BL, you find me a $5K Hinckley and I'll do it and tell you the results.

[TomandKarens34]

This is actually a tougher question than it seems. I'm not sure it has a general answer. There is a value slope to a boat. New and expensive to old and worthless. Also an owner slope as well, clueless to expert. Over the last ten years, I've spent 5 years on the hard fixing broken boats. I've gotten huge experience out of this and I have had boats that are awesome but it cost me 5 years sailing. Each of us has a fulcrum where the value v.s. the time/cost is chosen. At 44 years old, broken is cool, I can fix that. At 58, not so much. Next boat will cost a great deal more, be bigger and I will get my first survey. Big difference between replacing a 16 HP. Yanmar and a 65 HP. Perkins ! I can do the Yanmar in a long weekend. I couldn't change the Perkins at all. Sailing is a cost. You will pay, one way or the other.

[Minnewaska]

Originally Posted by TomandKarens34

......Also an owner slope as well, clueless to expert......

Agreed. There are a couple of others too. Willing to unwilling, can afford their boat to can't, care to don't care....

When you look closely at a boat's story, you can tell who owned her. Were small things taken care of? Are there records of consistent preventative maintenance? Is there a log of the last time the impellers were changed? Is there a major malfunction that the owner couldn't afford to fix? All boats have squawks, the question is whether they were deferred for long.

While these may be fully legit reasons to sell a boat that one got in too deep, they are a danger sign. At a survey, you can find what is inoperable at the time. If an owner was unwilling, unable or uncaring, they may not have keep presently operable systems in good repair, which means they may fail on you prematurely.

Read the story, not just the survey status report.

[DesertPirate]

Interesting topic and I am by no means any kind of expert, but I thought I'd toss in my experiences on the subject. My first sailboat was a Hobie 16. Surprise, I didn't get a survey! Turned out I didn't need one, but at that point I knew very little about what I didn't know about boats! My next boat was a Catalina 27 which, without a survey, I bought from a friend who had only recently been dismasted via a snapped shroud bolt that had corroded from the inside out. 11K of insurance money later the boat had a new mast, a new boom, and a new main. The atomic four was in great shape and I got it all for 10K. Long story short, I had a great time on the boat, but still had to repair the Catalina smile owing to a weakened keel bolt. But that only cost me $500 and if I had gotten a survey for a couple of hundred, I wonder, had the surveyor spotted the keel problem, would I have still bought the boat? I hope so, since I loved it, but knowing how I tend to over analyze things, I sometimes wonder if that would have killed the deal for me. Right now I consider that I'm 2/2 on buying boats without a survey, but I am not going to push my luck since I am looking for a much larger and more expensive boat. I put an offer of a boat which I did not buy owing to what was found out during the survey. Actually, it wasn't the survey that made up my mind, but the haul out. It was a fixed keel model with a large crack on either side of the keel. By the way, I had a rigging survey ($225), and engine survey ($250), engine and transmission oil analysis ($50), and the regular out of water hull and systems survey ($450). Including the haul out it was over a $1000, but for any boat that the seller might consider as expensive, I think a full line of surveys is well worth it. The caveat is that I have seen some pretty superficial surveys, ones which only listed what was on the boat, something that anyone with two eyes could determine. My recommendation is to ask to see some previous surveys from any prospective surveyor. Good luck. Oh yeah, so what about your $5000 boat? I'd really recommend that you buy Don Casey's "Sailboat Maintenance Manual" which includes his six separate books on sailboat maintenance, one of which is "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat." Well worth the money, and after reading just this one section, I'd bet you could inspect your $5000 boat yourself. Good Luck!

[DesertPirate]

Regarding Minnewaska's post. Great points. How the boat looks tells you how the boat was maintained. I love it when a broker tells you the owner was "really into the maintenance of the mechanical parts, but just didn't care too much about the cosmetics!" Yeah, right! How you do anything is how you do everything. I believe that.

[xymotic]

I just bought a SEVENTY FOUR year old boat without one. I'd say there are a couple criteria;

1) you should 'sort of' know what you are looking at. (I violated this rule, I know nothing about steel)

2) Are you willing and able to lose all of that money? (again, I completely violated this rule

In my case I was buying a collection of parts for my next boat. I expected the hull to be a total loss, so honestly it didn't make any sense to pay a surveyor 25% of the purchase price, to tell me she is a project that I could not insure, which was pretty obvious.

[Dog Ship]

Well Boatpoker, your the one confused.
This was cut and pasted off of the SAMS website. I didn't write it.
In my opinion, someone with 5 years of knowledge with regards to anything is still very wet behind the ears.
I'll say it again "Anybody" can call themselves a boat surveyor.
It's an unregulated industry that has far to much control and no accountability.
Until surveyors start to be accountable for what they preach, it will remain to be a freaking, laughable, joke.

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You are confused , the "3 years" refers to acceptance as a "Surveyor Associate" not as an an Accredited Marine Surveyor. Once accepted as an SA you have five years (each year with continuuibg education requirements) to re-apply as an AMS Candiate before you can take the Accreditaion exam. You are also incorrect about the education required. Whether a Surveyor Associate or a fully Accredited Marine Surveyor continuing education requirements go on as long as you are a member of SAMS. Failure to keep up your CE's will result in expulsion from the Society.

I suggest you go through the application process. I think you'll find it much more rigorous than you believe.

[Minnewaska]

Yes, anyone can call themselves a surveyor, but not anyone can be recognized by SAMS, NAMS, Loyds, etc. Buyer must beware of the different level of certification with in those as well.

Also agree that many many certified surveyors are just making an easy buck playing with boats and are not worth their paycheck. Many, however, are competent. Just like hiring a carpenter, get references.

Five years "can be" plenty of time to become expert in surveying a recreational boat. The subject matter really isn't as hard as we are making it out to be. Nevertheless, there are many who can't rise to this level.

[joethecobbler]

snake oil salesmen. w/ no accountability.