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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Boat Buyers & Sellers Forum
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  #21  
Old 05-07-2013
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Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by agarcia View Post
So I went up to Green Bay, WI (about 240mi from home) this past weekend to look at a 1982 Watkins 32... Of course he was set on 20k and unwilling to adjust the price based on survey found structural issues. I walked away. Was either request/offers out of line?
If your time is valuable, ask the seller to provide written answers to a set of questions about the boat's condition (example below), and approve your form contract (Va. form example attached), before you drive 500 miles to deal with who knows what.

Questions:

How long have you owned the boat?
Why did you decide to sell?
Do you have a certificate of title?
Has the engine been rebuilt?
How old are the sails and what is their condition?
Has there been any osmotic blistering, boat pox, or delamination of the hull?
Is there any spider cracking on the hull?
What is the condition of the gelcoat on the hull?
Is there any leaking at the hull/deck joint?
Is there any wet core in, delamination of, or soft spots on the deck?
Is there spider cracking on the deck? Around the stanchions?
Are the chainplates leaking? Is there any evidence of water in the bulkheads? Staining?
Has the boat ever sunk or had water inside at a level above the floorboards?
Does the electrical system work?
Has the boat ever been declared/determined to be a total loss by an insurance company?
Does anything need to be done in order for the boat to be cruise ready?

CONTRACT OF SALE
THIS CONTRACT OF SALE is made this ____ day of ______________, 20____, by and between __________________________________________________ (“the Seller”) and _________________________________________________ (“the Buyer”).
WITNESSETH: that for and in consideration of the mutual promises and covenants contained herein and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged by the parties, Seller and Buyer agree as follows:
1. Property. Seller agrees to sell to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase from Seller a ____ _____________________ sailboat, “______________”, hull identification number __________________________ along with all property attached to and enclosed in the vessel, including but not limited to the following ( all of which, the vessel and the property, to be referred to as “the Sailboat”):
a. All standing and running rigging, mast, boom, spreaders, stays, shrouds, traveler, mainsheet, jib sheets, ________ winches, ____ winch handles, cleats, traveler, and boom vang;
b. Main sail and ____________ jibs, sail bags and mainsail cover;
c. ____________________________________ engine and gas tank;
d. Electrical system, wiring and electronics, marine battery, VHF radio, depth finder, cabin lights, battery switch, running lights, and _______________________________;
d. Below decks/cabin furnishings, equipment, cushions for all berths, cooler, _________ toilet with _____________, foul weather jackets/gear, books, charts, and __________________;
e. Safety gear/equipment: ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ electric and manual bilge pumps, lifelines, stanchions, bow pulpit, stern pulpit, life preservers, flotation cushions, bell, flares, horn and ________________________________;
f. Anchor, anchor chain, and rode, mooring lines, cleats, ____ fenders; and,
g. Other: __________________________________________________ _______.
2. Price. The total sales price for the Sailboat is _____________________________________
Dollars ($___________.00). Seller acknowledges receipt of an earnest money deposit check in the amount of __________________________ Dollars ($______) from Buyer, with the balance of the total sales price to be paid by Buyer to Seller at closing.
3. Seller’s Representations: Seller represents and warrants the following: that Seller has clear title to the Sailboat, free and clear of any liens, levies, charges, assessments, or attachments; that Seller is the sole owner, with full and complete authority to enter into this contract of sale and to transfer title to the vessel to Buyer by a certificate of title; that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, except as follows:__________________________________________ _ __________________________________________________ ___________.
4. Contingencies: The sale is subject to a satisfactory marine survey or professional inspection, and a satisfactory sea trial by Buyer, both to be completed at Buyer’s option and expense by ____________________. Seller shall make the Sailboat available for the survey and inspection and Seller shall cause the Sailboat to be placed in the water and ready prior to the sea trial at Seller’s expense. In the event that either the survey/inspection or sea trial are not satisfactory to Buyer in his sole discretion, then the earnest money deposit shall be forthwith refunded to Buyer.
5. Closing: This sale shall close on _____________________ at _____________________, at which time Buyer shall deliver to Seller a certified or cashier’s check for the balance of the Sales Price in return for Seller’s transfer of the title to Sailboat to Buyer, by endorsement and delivery of a certificate of title to Buyer and by Seller’s transfer to Buyer of any and all keys, locks, and operational devices. The Seller shall deliver and transfer the Sailboat to Buyer at closing, launched/re-launched in the water at _________________________________________. Risk of loss remains with Seller until delivery of title to Buyer.
6. Addresses: Seller and Buyer each warrant and represent to each other that his residential address and telephone number are as follows:
Seller:___________________________________________ _________________________
Buyer: __________________________________________________ __________________
7. Modification: This contract may only be modified by a writing signed by the parties.
WITNESS the following signatures and seals:
SELLER: BUYER:

__________________________(SEAL) ___________________________(SEAL)


__________________________(SEAL) ___________________________(SEAL)
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  #22  
Old 05-07-2013
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Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I get the point, but as a buyer, I would not be willing to spend money on a survey, if you had the right to sell it to someone else in the meantime. If you're just saying you would keep the listing alive, I agree with that and find that is the most common practice. Call on a boat that is in survey, however, and the owner/broker should not take an offer.
It's as you say Minnewaska, I would never suggest selling a boat out from under a buyer if there is deal in place. A deal includes a signed purchase agreement (contract) with an agreed-upon price, a paid deposit (usually 10%), and a set of timelines, responsibilities, and warrants. Typically the main items would be a survey and a final sea trial that is acceptable to the purchaser, and a final full payment (to the seller).

I was actually in this situation recently with the sale of my last boat. After languishing for some time on the market, I finally received an acceptable offer. Deal signed, process underway. My ad stays up, but with "deal pending" on it. I then get two more serious buyers come forward ready to make offers. I simply told them I would contact them if the current deal fell through. Luckily I did not have to do that.
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  #23  
Old 05-07-2013
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Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
CONTRACT OF SALE
THIS CONTRACT OF SALE is made this ____ day of ______________, 20____, by and between __________________________________________________ (“the Seller”) and _________________________________________________ (“the Buyer”).
...
This is an excellent model contract James. You must be a lawyer .

Everyone should save a copy of this. Good free "advice."
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  #24  
Old 05-07-2013
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Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by agarcia View Post
So I went up to Green Bay, WI (about 240mi from home) this past weekend to look at a 1982 Watkins 32. (Listed originally for 25k a year ago) When I spoke to him over the phone we talked about the typical stuff and he mentioned since he no longer was with the broker that if I dealt directly with him it would be better for the price. That's all that was mentioned about money. After looking over the boat it was good enough condition to make an offer. I did notice that the cockpit floor repair was somewhat questionable and a little soft. Before I was able to mull it over with my wife, he said to me that he thought he told me over the phone that the price was 20k firm and I'd have to pay and extra $600 for the 3% he owed to the broker. Obviously this was news to me.
At this point the SELLER was out of line. He basically baited you to come and look at his boat which would be available for a good price, then when you actually showed up he pops a minimum price, $20,600, on you. He could have saved you time and fuel by telling you this before you drove 500 miles.

Quote:
I came back after 15 mins of what the heck and said if the survey to be done showed structural issues that he would be willing to adjust the price.
This was unnecessary. If you were still interested, you should have made an offer, contingent upon a survey. He could accept your offer, or not.

Quote:
He said why do I need to do a survey for this amount of money and he knows the boat well enough and a survey is someone's opinion. Ok I was weary by now.
I would have been fed-up and running away at this point...

Quote:
I told him that I was paying cash and was thinking about 17.5 or 18k. Of course he was set on 20k and unwilling to adjust the price based on survey found structural issues. I walked away. Was either request/offers out of line?
At no point in the circumstance that you state were you out of line. Of course, he may have a different perspective. It would be interesting if he were to chime in. It does, however, seem as though you may have been setting the stage for using the survey as a negotiation tactic.

Bottom line is that it was your money and his boat. You were either going to reach agreement, or not. If I could give you some advice; try to inform any seller that you will be having a survey done before you close any deal (most sellers should assume this).

I wouldn't agonize too much over missing out on this particular boat, or not reaching an agreement with this seller, there are too many others out there with fewer issues (boats and sellers).
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  #25  
Old 05-08-2013
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Am I out of line on my boat offer?

This first time sailboat buying experience has my head spinning. It seems easier to buy my last two houses then figuring out the right offer. Percentage wise I'm assuming 20 to 25% off the asking price is reasonable for a 1980s Great Lakes sailboat in average condition. Now I haven't a clue. I'm just trying to land a good boat somewhere between 18 and 20k and feel like I bring on more good than bad.
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Old 05-08-2013
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Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Don't get hung up on a standard discount from the asking price. You may lose a good opportunity that way. I can't help but notice that you were hoping to get this boat for your budget, which is fine, but doesn't mean that is what it's worth. Keep searching. Your boat is out there.
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  #27  
Old 05-08-2013
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Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by agarcia View Post
This first time sailboat buying experience has my head spinning. It seems easier to buy my last two houses then figuring out the right offer. Percentage wise I'm assuming 20 to 25% off the asking price is reasonable for a 1980s Great Lakes sailboat in average condition. Now I haven't a clue. I'm just trying to land a good boat somewhere between 18 and 20k and feel like I bring on more good than bad.
As Minnewaska says, don't assume all boats are over-priced. Do your homework, research the boat, view it (many times if needed), and then offer what you think it's worth.

One thing to realize is that Great Lakes boats, as a general rule, are likely in better shape than the equivalent salty. This is a broad generalization that can easily be over-ridden by other factors (such as good maintenance, for example). However, Great Lakes boats tend to age slower b/c they live in fresh water, and are probably only used a few months out of the year.
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  #28  
Old 05-08-2013
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Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
If your time is valuable, ask the seller to provide written answers to a set of questions about the boat's condition (example below), and approve your form contract (Va. form example attached), before you drive 500 miles to deal with who knows what.
.....
3. Seller’s Representations: .... that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, ...
At the risk of repeating our previous thread on this same material, I think this advice will only serve to further dis-function the OP's buying efforts. You can advise a buyer to ask for anything...what they are likely to get from a seller is a different matter. This non-standard contract will be a non-starter (unless perhaps the buyer has found an equally un-informed seller...). As a seller I would never agree to "seller's representations" above, these read like wording created by a lawyer as groundwork for subsequent litigation, the same reason an attorney would tell a seller not to agree to such wording. You buy a boat from individual as-is, where-is just like an automobile. You want assurances, then pay the bucks to buy a new boat from a dealer. Good luck changing this practice, you are tilting at windmills.

As in the other thread, my advice is to work with the standard YBAA contract which also deals with other essential provisions for escrow and a clearly defined acceptance period.

Good luck on getting written answers to a long list of questions too...

PS - here is the related wording on this subject from YBAA, quite a difference:

165 17. NO WARRANTIES: THE BUYER EXPRESSLY AGREES THAT NO WARRANTIES OR
166 REPRESENTATIONS, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, HAVE BEEN OR WILL BE MADE DIRECTLY OR
167 INDIRECTLY BY THE SELLER OR BROKERS CONCERNING THE CONDITION OR USE OF THE
168 YACHT. THE BUYER FURTHER EXPRESSLY AGREES THAT HE HAS NOT RELIED UPON ANY
169 ORAL REPRESENTATION BY THE SELLER OR THE BROKERS AS TO THE CONDITION OR
170 CAPABILITY OF THE YACHT OR ITS INVENTORY. THE BUYER ALSO RECOGNIZES AND
171 ACKNOWLEDGES THAT YACHTS AND THEIR INVENTORY MAY HAVE BOTH APPARENT
172 AND/OR HIDDEN DEFECTS AND THE BUYER ACCEPTS RESPONSIBILITY FOR DETERMINING
173 THE CONDITION OF THE YACHT, ITS INVENTORY, AND THE EXISTENCE OF ANY DEFECTS.
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  #29  
Old 05-08-2013
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Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

I think Minne and Mike gave you great advice. You can't just knock off a certain percentage from the asking price. Some boats are listed by families where the primary sailor has passed away or is injured and can't take care of the boat any more. They just want it sold, so they price it at a very fair price. If you're the first to stumble onto it and then give them a low-ball offer, you may lose out. By contrast, there are other boats out there that are listed WELL above a reasonable value, because the owners have strong emotional ties to the boat, and they tack on the cost of every nickle-and-dime improvement they've made over the 20 years they owned the boat. IMHO, your best bet is to find some rational basis for your offer. I know of two sources for this: NADA, and BoatUS. NADA is free, and some here have suggested that the prices may not be the most accurate, though from what I saw when I was shopping over the winter the prices aren't off by much. BoatUS is also free, but you have to give them your name, contact info, the boat make, model, and year, etc., and then they will get back to you with the average selling price. I don't know where NADA gets its statistics, but it does seem to be a lagging indicator (that is, it takes time for things like Hurricane Sandy to impact the statistics they use). BoatUS appears to use the data provided by its insured as to the actual purchase price paid for the boat, and I believe they tie in geography as well, so their statistics tend to be a little better. What I tended to do was to review the NADA first, to get a sense for whether the boat is fairly priced or not. If it's way out of line, I learned not to bother. Too low means there's likely something wrong (unless the pictures told a different story) and too high means the seller is attached and won't let it go. If the price is reasonable, and if it really looks like a boat I'd consider making an offer on, then I'd contact BoatUS to get an estimate.

Once you know what the fair price is for that boat in average condition, you can then add/subtract based on whether you think the boat is actually in average condition or not. Be sure to factor in things like radar, air conditioning, etc., especially if they are important to you. They are an expensive add-on. Now, by the same token, if those things don't mean anything to you, you don't have to factor them in, but you may wind up waiting longer for the next boat to come along.

You have a fair budget (mine was $6,000); I'm sure you'll find something, you just have to be patient.
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  #30  
Old 05-08-2013
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Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve77 View Post
And on top of that, expecting the buyer to pay the broker's fee is ridiculous. I would want no part of this one.
I agree completely. And if the seller refused to allow a survey, that would be a deal-breaker also. No question.

But my impression was that the seller simply suggested that he didn't think a survey was necessary. Fine. He can suggest it, and I as the buyer will ignore the suggestion.

Then the buyer looked for some assurance from the seller that he would be willing to re-negotiate the deal after the survey. Now that's where, as the seller, I would object. I'm not going to promise to lower my price ahead of time! If the survey turns up something the buyer didn't know about then he can walk away. And if I want to save the deal then I can re-negotiate. But to look for some promise before hand that I will lower the price after the survey is done, is just silly. And again, to any buyer who asked for that, I would say "I have not hidden anything from you, so I don't believe the survey will turn up anything to negotiate about."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimgo View Post
I know in my head that the repair looks like a third grader did it, and that I can do it better, and I've already priced that in. What I haven't priced in is if additional work is needed that only a survey can reveal.
And that's exactly how it should work. You price in what you know, and make an offer based on that. If the survey turns up something that you did not know, or could not price, then you make a decision. You can pay the agreed on price, you can walk, or you can tell the seller that you want to re-negotiate. At that point, the seller makes a decision. He can walk, he can agree to re-negotiate, or he can refuse to budge from the agreed on price. No one forces either one of you, and you both do what you think is in your best interest. In the end you come to a meeting of the minds to make a deal, or not, however it ends up.
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