Am I out of line on my boat offer? - Page 4 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Boat Buyers & Sellers Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree17Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 05-08-2013
Lurker extraordinaire
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 76
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
dgasmd is on a distinguished road
To add something here, can someone define for me "acceptable sea trial"? Does that mean to most that the boat floats, moves with an engine, and that the sails to up/down and can move the boat? Or does it imply satisfaction in the way it sails? If the buyers has never sailed a similar boat before and finds the boat "tender" or "too slow" for his taste or expectations, does that constitute "not acceptable"?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #32  
Old 05-08-2013
eherlihy's Avatar
Will work to sail. :-)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 3,162
Thanks: 71
Thanked 41 Times in 40 Posts
Rep Power: 8
eherlihy will become famous soon enough
Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Here is how I approached the problem;
  • I established a budget threshold that I could not cross.
  • I looked at boats at, or below that threshold.
  • For a boat in pristine condition, I would pay up to 100%. Anything less, and I would knock off what I THOUGHT it would cost me to make it pristine.
  • Add-ons such as electronics, air conditioning, big battery banks, and refrigeration added exactly $0 to my estimate of the value. These are creature comforts, that the owner added to make him/her more comfortable with the boat.
  • I looked for good layout below and on deck, newer sails, good engine, and a sound hull/deck. I also preferred a boat without instruments mounted on the bulkheads. I should also have added cleanliness to the list, as this is an indication of how much the owner values the boat. (my boat was dirty).
  • I NEVER made an offer on the spot, and would always think about any offer on the boat overnight.
  • If my guesstimate of the cost of my restoration was within 20% of asking, I would make an offer. If the cost for repair exceeded 20%, I would look at the next boat.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #33  
Old 05-08-2013
eherlihy's Avatar
Will work to sail. :-)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 3,162
Thanks: 71
Thanked 41 Times in 40 Posts
Rep Power: 8
eherlihy will become famous soon enough
Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgasmd View Post
To add something here, can someone define for me "acceptable sea trial"? Does that mean to most that the boat floats, moves with an engine, and that the sails to up/down and can move the boat? Or does it imply satisfaction in the way it sails? If the buyers has never sailed a similar boat before and finds the boat "tender" or "too slow" for his taste or expectations, does that constitute "not acceptable"?
"acceptable sea trial" means that the motor starts, and runs well (no smoke), the drive line has no serious vibration, the engine comes up and hold operating temperature, the engine can run at maximum RPM under load, the engine does not overheat, and the transmission works in FWD and REV. The sails go up and down.

This is not the time to be comparing the way that a Hunter performs to a Hinkley.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

USCG Licensed OUPV Captain, ASA 101/103/104/105 Certified Instructor - Also certified in Recreational Marine Electrical Systems
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #34  
Old 05-08-2013
ASA and PSIA Instructor
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,373
Thanks: 6
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 15
sailingfool will become famous soon enough
Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgasmd View Post
To add something here, can someone define for me "acceptable sea trial"? Does that mean to most that the boat floats, moves with an engine, and that the sails to up/down and can move the boat? Or does it imply satisfaction in the way it sails? If the buyers has never sailed a similar boat before and finds the boat "tender" or "too slow" for his taste or expectations, does that constitute "not acceptable"?
I typically consider the sea trial as limited to verifying the proper operation of items that cannot be verified on the hard, and as limited to such, and usually done after closing per an escrow agreement. If any subject equipment turns out not to operate normally then the agent handling the sale compensates the buyer for replacement out of the escrow.

Should you have arranged a sea trail during the acceptance period, then "acceptable" becomes whatever you want, as you have the option of terminating the purchase... Otherwise, you can define the scope of the seatrail as whatever you and the seller agree to, as the standard YBAA agreement has no definition...
__________________
Certified...in several regards...
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #35  
Old 05-08-2013
denverd0n's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 776
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 6
denverd0n is on a distinguished road
Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgasmd View Post
To add something here, can someone define for me "acceptable sea trial"? Does that mean to most that the boat floats, moves with an engine, and that the sails to up/down and can move the boat? Or does it imply satisfaction in the way it sails? If the buyers has never sailed a similar boat before and finds the boat "tender" or "too slow" for his taste or expectations, does that constitute "not acceptable"?
Legally speaking, it means whatever the buyer chooses for it to mean. As a buyer, you are under no legal obligation to explain to the seller WHY the sea trial was unacceptable to you.

On the other hand, as others have said, doing sea trials is not the way to be trying out different sorts of boats. You should have a good idea ahead of time what to expect. But that is a moral obligation, not a legal one.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #36  
Old 05-08-2013
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,390
Thanks: 63
Thanked 160 Times in 157 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

If you got to sea trial on a boat and as it turned out it was a lot more tender than you were accustomed to and e.g. your S.O. spent the entire trial wide eyed with a death grip on a pulpit or rail then I don't see any way you could be faulted for considering the sea trial 'unacceptable' (to you).

However by the time you get to that stage, one would hope you have a reasonable idea if what you're after and how it might behave. I think in practice few deals are 'soured' by the sea trial unless that was a convenient excuse for cold feet. I agree it's primary confirmation that everything works and a chance to check out all the sails and rigging properly (tough to do on the dock).
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #37  
Old 05-08-2013
jameswilson29's Avatar
Senior Smart Aleck
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 1,855
Thanks: 18
Thanked 52 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 5
jameswilson29 is on a distinguished road
Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
You can advise a buyer to ask for anything...what they are likely to get from a seller is a different matter.
Well...it is a buyer's market. A buyer can dictate terms of the transaction if he or she has the backbone to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
This non-standard contract will be a non-starter (unless perhaps the buyer has found an equally un-informed seller...).
Worked for me and the seller, who was an equally well-informed lawyer and experienced sailor, smart enough to understand the benefits of working with a motivated, legitimate buyer and not some tire kicker who wanted a free sail.

Only one potential seller whose boat I inspected (and sailed) balked at my contract. My inspection revealed some clues to latent problems with the boat that he refused to even recognize. I guess he was waiting for a sucker to come along. The questions and the custom contract functioned to eliminate the scammers quite well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
As a seller I would never agree to "seller's representations" above, these read like wording created by a lawyer as groundwork for subsequent litigation, the same reason an attorney would tell a seller not to agree to such wording.
Are you selling your boat? You are going to be on the market a long, long time with that attitude. There aren't many qualified, motivated buyers out there anymore (not since the '80s in the used sailboat market).

I would be willing to tell a buyer all about my boat, show all my videos, a list of my work, the potential problems, etc. I would not try to trick someone or deceive someone. An informed buyer should not expect a perfect used sailboat. All older boats have problems. INMHO, the best way to avoid a lawsuit is to be fair and honest with other people, communicate well and often, and beware of crooks who are trying to deceive others or who are close-mouthed. The person with whom you decide to transact business with is as important as the substance of the transaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
You buy a boat from individual as-is, where-is just like an automobile. You want assurances, then pay the bucks to buy a new boat from a dealer. Good luck changing this practice, you are tilting at windmills.
People will treat you the way you allow yourself to be treated. If you go into the transaction hoping they will extend the privilege of allowing you to buy their boat, of course, you will be treated as if you expect to have no rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
As in the other thread, my advice is to work with the standard YBAA contract which also deals with other essential provisions for escrow and a clearly defined acceptance period.

Good luck on getting written answers to a long list of questions too...
Most of the sellers I communicated with were willing to answer the questions. If not, next...There are plenty of motivated sellers who are willing to disclose their knowledge of the condition of the boat. If not, what are they hiding? I don't want to deal with some sneaky crook. It is just not worth it.

Many sellers are proud of the condition of their boats and what they have done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
PS - here is the related wording on this subject from YBAA, quite a difference...
Of course, it is designed with the broker's interests in mind, not the buyer's. Secondarily, it helps the seller. It does not protect the buyer any more than an option contract does: "If you are satisfied with the condition after you spend thousands of dollars, and we won't tell you anything other than sales puffery, which you cannot rely on, then we will let you buy it for the agreed price." Wow, what a great arrangement (for the broker and the seller)!

Last edited by jameswilson29; 05-08-2013 at 02:27 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #38  
Old 05-08-2013
jimgo's Avatar
Asleep at the wheel
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,744
Thanks: 69
Thanked 101 Times in 99 Posts
Rep Power: 3
jimgo is on a distinguished road
Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

James, I approached my purchase in much the same manner. I didn't have a contract like yours, but much of the negotiations and interactions with the sellers and brokers was handled by E-mail. I asked some pointed questions up front, too, to help ensure I wasn't wasting my time.

To Sailingfool's assertion that cars and boats are bought as-is, where-is, that's not entirely true. If there is fraud, the courts will rescind the deal. Fraud can take many forms, from applying bondo and paint to cover up a dent/hole in the hull to telling a buyer "no, I've never had a leak" when the chainplates leak like seives.

We looked at a boat that had, in my opinion, sunk standing up. The seller asserted that there was nothing wrong with the boat, but it was clear that the bottom 2-3" of the cabin would fill with water as the tide came in. They waited until there was a day where low tide coincided with when we could visit, then let us aboard. The price was low enough that we might not have ordered a survey, and the seller wasn't going to tell us about the water. If we had bought it, I was afraid it would sink on our way to a marina. If that had happened, even after us signing a contract, if I could prove that the seller knew or should have known of the damage, I'm confident I would have at least gotten my money back, and possibly more.
__________________
- Jim
Home: Western Philly 'burbs
1980 Allmand 31
1975 Albacore 15


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #39  
Old 05-09-2013
denverd0n's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 776
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 6
denverd0n is on a distinguished road
Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimgo View Post
If there is fraud, the courts will rescind the deal.
Exactly. And you can put anything you want in the contract, and it still doesn't change that. Meaning, the contract can even say something like "seller will not be held liable for fraud or negligence..." and that STILL does not protect the seller against charges of fraud or negligence. Numerous precedents exist that a clause like that is not enforceable.

Edit: I should add, this applies to U.S. courts. I have no idea how a clause that tries to excuse a seller for fraud would stand up in court in any other country.

Last edited by denverd0n; 05-09-2013 at 12:12 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #40  
Old 05-09-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Beacon, NY
Posts: 1,575
Thanks: 11
Thanked 42 Times in 40 Posts
Rep Power: 8
miatapaul is on a distinguished road
Re: Am I out of line on my boat offer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I get the point, but as a buyer, I would not be willing to spend money on a survey, if you had the right to sell it to someone else in the meantime. If you're just saying you would keep the listing alive, I agree with that and find that is the most common practice. Call on a boat that is in survey, however, and the owner/broker should not take an offer.
Yes, this is the one place that a broker is really handy, as they keep the deposit. (traditionally don't even cash the check) When dealing with a direct seller, you have to trust they will give deposit back. If the survey comes back with deal breaker problems. Or even if the seller sells it to someone else.

Last edited by miatapaul; 05-09-2013 at 10:51 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OK, here we go again...an offer on another boat! josrulz Boat Review and Purchase Forum 36 11-05-2008 10:47 AM
Boat offer prices? Ericson 29? southernsmoke Boat Review and Purchase Forum 16 03-23-2008 09:21 AM
boat purchase offer/contract/checklist apresski Boat Review and Purchase Forum 3 10-01-2006 06:01 PM
Offer on first boat and discouraging survey garymcg Boat Review and Purchase Forum 35 07-03-2006 10:04 AM
Offer on New Boat glennnewc Boat Review and Purchase Forum 1 05-08-2003 08:16 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:28 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012