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  #21  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

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Originally Posted by Unkle Toad View Post
HOw about an offer based on what I can afford (less then I believe the boat is worth) dont want to insult the seller but I really like the boat.. I will be cash in hand(ok bank) when I make the offer..
That's how I got all 4 of my boats (Catalina 25, Allmand 31, Albacore 15, Bombard AX3). I have always been completely honest about my situation, told them that I know the market stinks but I have cash (no financing that could fall through) and wished them good luck (in advance) if they decide not to take my offer. I've been cursed out by a few sellers, but in general people are polite, and occasionally you find one who will sell you his/her boat for the price you can pay.
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

Have you seen the NADA boat value guides, and are you aware of BoatUS's boat value service? BOth are free (though you have to give BoatUS your info, and they will hit you up to insure the boat), and are EXCELLENT ways of getting a sense of what an "average condition" version of any given boat will sell for. In my opinion, that's an easy, neutral way of finding a baseline for the price. Then you adjust up or down based on condition, equipment, etc.

In the end, I agree with most of the other posts here - YOU have to feel good when the transaction is finished. Become as informed as possible, and make the offer that a) you can justify and b) you think the seller will accept.
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  #23  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
You should offer the fair market value of a comparable boat.

A common issue is buyer fixation. The buyer decides one boat or one model is THE BOAT and he or she loses all objectivity. The seller then controls the transaction because the buyer will do pay or do anything to buy that particular boat or one of the limited supply of that particular model.

Why are you really buying a sailboat? What do you envision it will it do for you?

Whatever your reasons, there are likely plenty of comparable boats that would satisfy your purposes (that are not Sabre 34s). Offer what you believe you would have to pay to satisfy your boating needs.

Deciding on a Sabre complicates the process, because you will be paying for something beyond any real practical value for many sailors, for some element of owner satisfaction. Sabres are well-made, quality boats which display considerable craftsmanship, particularly in the interior. Racers describe these kinds of boats derogatorily as "furniture boats". Ultimately, this build quality and craftsmanship have little or nothing to do with getting from point A to point B, seaworthiness, cruising ability, sailing enjoyment, or sailing ability. To use a car analogy, you will be buying a Mercedes or a BMW, not a Toyota or a Honda, or even a Lexus or an Infiniti.

If you want a good value or a practical boat, there are any number of less expensive boats that will function just as well as a Sabre 34.

I don't begrudge anyone who wants to pay extra for the satisfaction of greater quality. If it satisfies your emotional needs, more power to you. Just understand why you are buying a particular type of boat and the costs that you pay for to satisfy that need.

I agree with making your offer more attractive by showing your ability to close the sale. Offer to provide the bank statement showing liquid funds in your account, or your loan pre-approval if you will be financing the purchase. Expect information from the seller about what you are purchasing.
As James said Sabres are quality build boats. That's why the 84 Sabre you are looking at has a higher resale value. not because its a furniture build boat. The 34 Sabre is also a good handling well balanced sailing boat. The accompaniments of having a great fit and finish inside make it a sought after brand. In addition it standard comes with oversized equipment and quality winches. The build quality is also why this boat has retained more of its % value than say a comparable year hunter/ bene. You tend to find more of the Sabres around % to the number built than many other boat models, again going back to the quality of build. Yes both sail, but some sail better,. If you are using it for racing there is no value in the beautiful joinery, but your not so the joinery adds to the "feel" of the boat as a second place to be which is important to you. With Sabres you get the best of both worlds. A quick good sailing well designed boat with a superior wood finish inside.

As you look at making an offer as others have said there is no standard bid. In looking at the Waukeegan boat if that's the one I would say it looks in good condition from the pictures. It also doesn't have a lot of extra equipment on her. The way the sails are described ill bet the are original. The engine has very low hours for a 39 year old boat. If she has been kept on the Lakes her entire life it means she has been sailed and exposed lightly.

In negotiating first determine the price you will not go above in the end. What's its worth in the market and to you. This boat is listed at 49, way above its worth in the current market. Looking at comps I would say its 39-40is high end. Personally I would start at 32 and not go above 37. If there is apparently issues with the chain plates and have them fixed as a condition of sale or further reduction in price.

As James said don't get fixated. I would also continue looking and develop other potential boats so you don't feel pressured to not walk away.
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  #24  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

Honestly I think the NADA Guides are pretty inaccurate. If it is a common boat then I wouldn't give them too much credit. You can try to use them for negotiating, but I wouldn't take them too seriously.

Maybe they are just incredibly inaccurate for my boat because they are mixing up sales history for both models of Pearson 28. They don't even have the measurements correct for my boat. The list of optional equipment makes no sense for smaller sailboats either.

I also did an estimate for a Catalina 25 and it's a little more reasonable, though the option list still doesn't make any sense. There is also no consideration for condition.
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  #25  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

PHRF ratings are the best indications we have of relative sailing speeds of different boats in mixed fleet racing.

A Sabre 34 rates anywhere from 141 - 165
A C&C 35-2 rates anywhere from 123-139
A Pearson 10M (33 feet) rates anywhere from 141-150

There is a decent looking C&C 35-2 over on the Eastern Shore for $19K - the boat I would probably buy if I were moving up in size, suitable for my purposes: 1974 C&C MK II sailboat for sale in Maryland
It is probably 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of the Sabre 34 and is a clearly faster boat, good build quality, and a great-sailing boat according to all the reviews. You can also buy a decent, faster, Pearson 10M for less than $20K.

Again, I just can't see paying twice or three times as much for a boat that essentially performs the same purpose with basically the same accommodations for cruising, but to each his own. Personally, I would not pay a premium for a nicer interior and better build quality with no practical advantages for my purposes of day sailing and occasional coastal cruising.

This is not to criticize your choice at all, Julie. I think the Sabres are great boats and I understand why people buy them. Just consider your other options, because you are moving out of the realm of the purely practical into the more emotional reasons for buying.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 06-20-2013 at 11:24 AM.
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  #26  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
PHRF ratings are the best indications we have of relative sailing speeds of different boats in mixed fleet racing.

A Sabre 34 rates anywhere from 141 - 165
A C&C 35-2 rates anywhere from 123-139
A Pearson 10M (33 feet) rates anywhere from 141-150

There is a decent looking C&C 35-2 over on the Eastern Shore for $19K - the boat I would probably buy if I were moving up in size, suitable for my purposes: 1974 C&C MK II sailboat for sale in Maryland
It is probably 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of the Sabre 34 and is a clearly faster boat, good build quality, and a great-sailing boat according to all the reviews. You can also buy a decent, faster, Pearson 10M for less than $20K.

Again, I just can't see paying twice or three times as much for a boat that essentially performs the same purpose with basically the same accommodations for cruising, but to each his own. Personally, I would not pay a premium for a nicer interior and better build quality with no practical advantages for my purposes of day sailing and occasional coastal cruising.

This is not to criticize your choice at all, Julie. I think the Sabres are great boats and I understand why people buy them. Just consider your other options, because you are moving out of the realm of the purely practical into the more emotional reasons for buying.
Didn't know you were in the market James. I would part with my 35 MKIII k/c for the right price
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  #27  
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Re: Initial Offer Question

James: I think it's a valid approach for you to maximize PHRF for the dollar, but I can also understand other people having different priorities. I also care about having a good performing boat (interestingly we've both ended up with different eras of the Pearson 28, both have a respectable PHRF for a cruising 28' boat) but also care about interior layout and comfort. C&C 29 and 30 were also high on my list when I was most recently shopping.

If you are maximizing PHRF for the minimum cost (ignoring quality) it seems like there would be even cheaper options than a C&C 35, like a San Juan 34?
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  #28  
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Re: Initial Offer Question

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Didn't know you were in the market James. I would part with my 35 MKIII k/c for the right price
I started the discussion with my wife and she suddenly expressed a previously undisclosed attachment to the P28, along with her professed belief that it serves all our purposes...

...and when I am perfectly rational and I try to figure out exactly what all that additional expense would do for me on a practical level, I have no good answers to my own questions.
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Last edited by jameswilson29; 06-20-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkle Toad View Post
dont want to insult the seller...
I've never understood this mentality. Receiving an offer to purchase a boat, regardless of price, shouldn't be insulting to anyone. The worst they can say is "No".

Study the market, know your budget and make the offer that makes sense.
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  #30  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

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Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
.... Using a broker who is working on your behalf will help with the legal paperwork, the offer in earnest, and the transfer and escrow of funds.

If you are buying from an individual you can still use the services of a broker, for a fee. If you would like to know more on this you can PM me here, I can check with my broker and have him put you in contact with someone from his company in your area, and they can help you if you are not working with someone already....
Mark
While a boat buyer may (should IMHO)work with a broker on a search, for the benefits that you mention and more, that broker (referred to in the paperwork as the selling broker) is legally an agent of the seller and is always compensated by the seller from the sale proceeds.

Despite a number of other threads here on the concept of a "buyer" broker, namely a broker who is an agent of the buyer and is compensated by the buyer, no such real individual has yet appeared.
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Last edited by sailingfool; 06-21-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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