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  #31  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

Here's my thinking...

The boat was built in 1984, making it 29 years old. Most of the boats we've been looking at were built in the 80s. I know boats tire with age and use, some faster than others. Usually, the quality boat tires more slowly. So from that point of view, the quality boat is more appealing to me. And upon resale, it won't depreciate dramatically from age 29 to maybe the mid 30s.

Right now, we will use it as a weekend get-away and will most likely stay on it overnight a couple nights a week, maybe more. So sleeping, showering, cooking, etc. are important parts of the decision factor.

Sailing - We don't want a tub but we aren't going to race either. Fast and comfortable is ideal though. We want a boat that can sail in light winds just as easily as heavier winds. No constant looks over at the black start button wondering if we don't push it will we ever reach our destination thoughts.

Ideally, we'd like to take a week or two to make the trek up the lake, Mackinac Island specifically. That's a two-weeker. So it has to be able to handle the weather and keep two people reasonably comfortable. Anyone who knows the Great Lakes knows violent storms can jump on top of you quickly. So I don't want to be fearing our little boat will be broken apart when we get caught up in that. And if we travel, we will.

I need peace of mind when buying. You can't know everything about a boat, not even with a thorough survey by the most competent surveyor. There's always something about to break down, always something hidden trying to take your boat to Nature's original state. A better quality boat that is well maintained will increase the odds of not experiencing too much of that.

We're going to look at it this weekend. Right now, the boat is on the hard. We may have a motivated seller. But in the end, it's are we willing to commit to the cost of ownership? that will determine if we will become boat owners. This will not become an emotional decision.
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  #32  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
Here's my thinking...

I need peace of mind when buying. You can't know everything about a boat, not even with a thorough survey by the most competent surveyor. There's always something about to break down, always something hidden trying to take your boat to Nature's original state. A better quality boat that is well maintained will increase the odds of not experiencing too much of that.

We're going to look at it this weekend. Right now, the boat is on the hard. We may have a motivated seller. But in the end, it's are we willing to commit to the cost of ownership? that will determine if we will become boat owners. This will not become an emotional decision.
You are the only ones who have to love it, and you should base your spending on your needs and desires, this is not an investment, it is a luxury. It is something you do not because you have to, like food, and so forth, but it is something you do because you love doing it. Spend wisely, use your head, but also use your heart. If you look at the boat and you love it and it is worth to you what you have to pay to get it, then buy it. It will be your responsibility, and your money that has to go to keeping it the way you like it. A good survey is much needed and if you see that the survey reveals things that would make the boat worth less, then show that to the seller, most times they will accept that and either repair it, or reduce the price, often by a lot.

Ten years ago I was looking at a boat, it was more than I could afford, but it caught my eye, and even though the owner was asking $65,000.00 I offered $29,500.00 not because I was trying to lowball him, but because that was all of my budget, plus a little. I made an offer in earnest through a broker, I put up the entire amount in escrow with the broker. He went to the seller and the offer was rejected, but then a survey done by the broker turned up some issues. It was six months later, but I got the boat at $20,000.00 and spent another $18,000.00 on it in repairs and replacing things that were needed. I sailed it for three years, and sold it for $29,000.00. Most people would say I lost money, I would say I gained something money could not buy, the experiences of not only sailing, but also working on the boat. I was happy, and I was the only one I had to please.
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  #33  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
I need peace of mind when buying. You can't know everything about a boat, not even with a thorough survey by the most competent surveyor. There's always something about to break down, always something hidden trying to take your boat to Nature's original state. A better quality boat that is well maintained will increase the odds of not experiencing too much of that.
I understand your goal; I am not sure a more expensive boat will necessarily provide more peace of mind.

If you want peace of mind with an older boat, look for simple, open and sturdy from a reputable builder. Learn how to become an expert boat inspector, be selective about condition (does not necessarily correlate with price), and pay for every possible marine survey- boat, engine and rigging - before you purchase. Be demanding of the owner's knowledge of the vessel - don't deal with someone who is squirrelly, secretive or combative, throws out this caveat emptor B.S., or thinks he or she is doing you a favor by letting you buy his or her boat.

Before you sign a contract, you should know why the owner is selling, the history of his or her ownership, and his or her knowledge of the boat's conditions, including all problems - and they all have problems. Any one who claims his 30 year old boat is perfect (except MaineSail), is either lying, ignorant or nuts.

The more complex, hidden and specialized the boat, the less meaningful interaction you have with the seller, the more likely you will have expensive problems. The less you know and the more you trust the owner, the more you are exposing yourself to costly problems down the road.

Given your needs, I wouldn't gamble on a more expensive boat. Any number of production boats would satisfy your criteria. Look at the problems the last boat you looked at had.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 06-20-2013 at 03:04 PM.
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  #34  
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Re: Initial Offer Question

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Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
it's are we willing to commit to the cost of ownership?
EXACTLY- check this out:
COST | Matt & Jessica's Sailing Page

Ouch.
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  #35  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

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Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
[I]
But in the end, it's are we willing to commit to the cost of ownership? that will determine if we will become boat owners.
I probably misunderstood this paragraph... but, would it not be best to figure out if you can commit to cost of ownership before even looking for a boat?
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  #36  
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Re: Initial Offer Question

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Look at the problems the last boat you looked at had.
Any boat not properly maintained will eventually develop serious problems. The price of that boat also told of serious problems and they eventually surfaced. On this new one, the original engine with only 663 hours on it makes me wonder. Only 22 hours/season engine use? Hmmmmmm.... It will be interesting seeing the boat. I just may flat out not like it. Even that brand new 456 at the Annapolis boat show had things I just didn't like about it. I won't buy unless the glass slipper is the right fit.

This is just a getting my feet wet thing for now. We're looking at other boats but most of the ones we like are hundreds or more miles away. The Sabre 34 and a couple others that look interesting are close by. We will certainly do a lot of inspecting before we take the plunge.
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Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

In my experience, when the seller is constantly pointing out how great the boat is, and how perfectly they have maintained it, and doing a hard sell, then they are pretty firm on the price.

When they stand back and just say - " there it is, check it out" then they might take less

Neither of which should really affect your offer, but it gives you some insight.

I once offered 90% on a sailboat and the seller said loudly " I''d put a hole in it and sink it first!" I breathed a sigh of relief and bought a bigger boat cheaper later that year. On the cheap boat I offered 100%, in cash, no dickering.
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  #38  
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Re: Initial Offer Question

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Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
I probably misunderstood this paragraph... but, would it not be best to figure out if you can commit to cost of ownership before even looking for a boat?
The money is there. The question is do we want to spend it on a boat, spend it on something else, invest it, save it or some combination therein?

Once we start doing the walk-thrus we'll start to get a sense of where we stand on this.
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  #39  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

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Honestly I think the NADA Guides are pretty inaccurate. If it is a common boat then I wouldn't give them too much credit. You can try to use them for negotiating, but I wouldn't take them too seriously.

Maybe they are just incredibly inaccurate for my boat because they are mixing up sales history for both models of Pearson 28. They don't even have the measurements correct for my boat. The list of optional equipment makes no sense for smaller sailboats either.

I also did an estimate for a Catalina 25 and it's a little more reasonable, though the option list still doesn't make any sense. There is also no consideration for condition.
While I agree with some of what you say, it must be noted that if you are financing a boat the lender will start here for a value. Survey may get you to another number, but the key word is "might".

Unfortunately, it's one of those numbers that sellers think is crap, but buyers and finance companies tend to use.
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  #40  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Initial Offer Question

Interesting responses. All are good and I'll only add one thing that I haven't yet read. Buying or selling an item is not a contest of wills. A successful negotiation is a meeting of goals or intentions. As such, it should never be viewed as a zero-sum game where you have to lose for me to win. I run my business this way and it's what's kept us in demand for 26 years. Do your research (BoatUS is a great resource for valuation), and offer a fair price a bit below where you intend to settle. If it doesn't happen, then my mom's advise applies - there is always another "good deal".

Ok, I'll add a second response. Yes, Sabres are well built but so are Catalinas. The reason why a Sabre is so much more pricy is the interior and the cost of the components, not the quality of the hull itself. IMO, Catalina makes an excellent boat. But Garhauer is much cheaper than Schaefer and there is no such thing as a stock Sabre sail. The interior is piece-built by hand and there are virtually no moulded components (except for the shower on newer Sabres). That all costs. Each Sabre is semi-custom.

I agree with jimwilson that we're not as fast as others, but we can go almost-fast in great style and comfort! As for a 1984 Sabre's longevity...um, if it's maintained, it can be a gem. I know, I have an '84 and had an '82 Sabre 28 before this. PM me if you have any specific questions.

NOTE: Sabre no longer manufactures sailboats. If you own one, you own a collector's edition.
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Last edited by Sabreman; 06-20-2013 at 05:19 PM.
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