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  #121  
Old 11-06-2013
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Re: Full Keel

I volunteer at a 5th grade class. The teacher uses an integrated aproach to all the subjects based on sailing the world on a square rigger. I go down and teach the kids about sailing ships. I have them all draw sailing ships. I also do music with them. I enjoy it and I have done it for at least 25 years.
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  #122  
Old 11-06-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Those are lucky kids!
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  #123  
Old 11-06-2013
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Re: Full Keel

This year ARC will be interesting to measure the performance of old bluewater designs with modern ones.

No, there is not any true full keel boat among the 200 boats but there are some boats from the next generation, fin modified keel, I mean that keel that is in between a true narrow fin and a full keel.

Well, it is better than nothing for comparative purposes in what regards performance and those boats have already a better performance than full keel boats.

Of course, the way the boats are sailed also counts but in so many boats we can easily discover a pattern and see if the claim that modern performance cruisers when loaded are as slow or not much faster than those boats. Almost all boats that are making the ARC, are in fact going to the Caribbean to pass the European winter there and are loaded accordingly.

We have there some that are great boats of an older design, like the Shanon 37, a Nauticat 42, a Gozzard 41, a Trintella 45, two Island Packet 380, a Island Packet 45, a Pacific Seacraft 40, a Rustler 36.


In what regards performance cruisers of the same size on we have on the cruising division:

A Sabre 386, a Grand Soleil 43 OT, 2 Beneteau First 47.7, a Pogo 40. There are more performance cruisers but they are on the racing division taking the opportunity to have some fun. It would not be fair to compare boats cruising with boats racing even if nobody likes to be left behind so we will only compare boats cruising, not racing.

We can also compare the performance of those old designs with the performance of modern cruisers, I mean modern but not performance boats:

We have a 2 XC45, a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 43, a Hanse 445, a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 49, a Dehler 32, a Delphia 33, a Beneteau Oceanis473, a Allures 39.9, a Hallberg Rassy 372 and a Southerly 42.

I kept only on the list of modern boats recent designs and excluded older boats even if with a fin keel.The subject here is the comparison of old designs with contemporary designs, fully loaded an on an Atlantic crossing.

It will be fun The ARC will start in some days.

ARC
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  #124  
Old 11-06-2013
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Re: Full Keel

That should provide some interesting info and comparisons.

Please keep us posted.
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  #125  
Old 11-12-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Actually there is a full keel boat in the fleet, a Laurin 32



According to the "leaderboard" the boat is in 18th place of 36.....and the 4th smallest boat in the fleet.

Can this be real Paulo?
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  #126  
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Actually there is a full keel boat in the fleet, a Laurin 32



According to the "leaderboard" the boat is in 18th place of 36.....and the 4th smallest boat in the fleet.

Can this be real Paulo?
First I thought you were kidding me, you know the ARC has not yet begun but then I understood that you were talking about the ARC+ a side event with a much smaller number of boats, boats that could not find place on the ARC.

A single example will not prove much, you need several cases to have a pattern in what regards statistics. That boat can be sailed much better than others, flying a spinnaker while others are not using it. You need several cases to be statistically relevant and that's why I had on a previous post considered several old boats and several modern boats.

Even so, even if that boat is well sailed I don't understand your enthusiasm.

You as usual confound corrected time with real time. The boat that is called Corona has a time of 6d 12h 32m 31s and his in corrected time in 18th place out of 36 but the one that is 33th has real time of 5d 23h 44m 49s and it is incomparably faster

That means that the boat that is in 33th place has already an advantage of about 12 hours over the one that is in 18th.

So please, look at the map were the boats are in real time and there you will see that the boat is on the back of the pack.

The last one is an Oyster 35 mariner, one of those heavy boats with a modified fin keel, or kind of a short long keel. Very close goes another of those, a Passport 40.

Anyway there are few boats on this rally and we cannot compare performances namely what regards the main question: the performance modern performance cruisers loaded with the performance of old designed heavy boats, preferably with full or modified fin keel. There are not a single modern performance cruiser of that size racing, I mean regarding your full keel boat.

Yes, we can compare the performance of other old designed heavy boats like the Passport 40 that goes before the last (6d 20h 11m 7s) with the only performance cruiser with about the same size even if a little bigger, a Bavaria Match 42 (5d 1h 30m 16s), almost two days less but the Bavaria Match is not a contemporary model. We can also compare it with a smaller modern light cruiser (not a performance cruiser), an Hanse 370 that has a real time of 6d 0h 16m 8s, almost a day less.

Anyway there is not many boats to compare here, I mean old heavy designs with modern performance cruisers. On the big one with more than 200 boats we would have a lot more to compare and we can get meaningful results, I mean statistically. Starts in some days.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-12-2013 at 07:34 PM.
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  #127  
Old 11-12-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Paulo:
Don't confuse poor GB with reality. He sees what he wants to see.
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  #128  
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Re: Full Keel

Enthusiastic? haha No Paulo, I'm just pointing out that once again facts prove you wrong. Besides, if the boat was well sailed it wouldn't be midpack, it would be first (on corrected time)
The fact is that this very old design full keel boat (is it built from wood?) is sailing boat for boat better than bigger more modern "faster" boats.

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  #129  
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Re: Full Keel

GB:
Yes you are correct and soon the world will see your wisdom and all the best boats will have full keels once again.

The full keel shall rise again!

" if the boat was well sailed it wouldn't be midpack, it would be first (on corrected time)"
Well, that would all depend on the rating wouldn't it. The rating could be so fast that Dennis Connor couldn't win with it. But there again, reality has no place in this argument. Youy see what you want to see.

And if you have trouble reading drawings GB let me help you. The drawing posted clearly shows a GRP boat. There is no evidence of wooden structure. But don't let reality bother you.

Full keels forever!
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  #130  
Old 11-12-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Enthusiastic? haha No Paulo, I'm just pointing out that once again facts prove you wrong. Besides, if the boat was well sailed it wouldn't be midpack, it would be first (on corrected time)
If the owner was best friends with the handicapper, the boat could be badly sailed and still be first (on corrected time). That's just how the system works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
The fact is that this very old design full keel boat (is it built from wood?) is sailing boat for boat better than bigger more modern "faster" boats.
It would be nice if that were true.. but it isn't. Never mind...
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