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  #201  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
No, of course not, it has nothing to do with sailing ability, crews and routing: everybody knows that a Laurin 32 is way faster than a Passport 40 and that a Malo 43 is way faster than a Bavaria Match 42, as the results of that Transat race....hum... transat cruise prove that without any doubt
Without needing to wait for the results of the ARC (as if that would provide any new information on a subject proven on a weekly basis in combined fleet passage races all over the world ) the obvious conclusion is this: An old, traditional, yacht sailed well can, on average, given ideal conditions of wind and sea, travel just as far just as quickly as a new, modern, yacht sailed badly.

This is because, as pointed out by Uffa Fox, Francis Chichester and a host of others who-should-know over many decades - you can't change physics.

I'm regularly reminded of this in our passage races here by continually getting my a$$ whipped by yachts at least 50 years older than my own Classic.. which, again under ideal conditions of wind and sea, is quite capable of beating yachts 30-40 years newer in both design and build. (There's an S&S30 I get particular enjoyment beating - but that's another story for another time!)
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Last edited by Classic30; 12-04-2013 at 09:11 PM.
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  #202  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
W... the obvious conclusion is this: An old, traditional, yacht sailed well can, on average, given ideal conditions of wind and sea, travel just as far just as quickly as a new, modern, yacht sailed badly.
...
Well, it has to be a very well designed yacht, it has to be very well sailed and the modern boat has to be very poorly sailed, but yes you can say that.

That is about the same as saying that a very good driver can go faster on a twisting road with an old VW (you know the one from the 60's) than a poor driver with a brand new Porsche.

That is no proof that the 60's VW is faster then the Porsche, only that it is not enough to have a fast car, it is also needed to know how to drive it. The same with the boats.

Regards

Paulo
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  #203  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That is no proof that the 60's VW is faster then the Porsche, only that it is not enough to have a fast car, it is also needed to know how to drive it. The same with the boats.
Agreed. 100%.

..and there are an awful lot of cruising folk out there who simply aren't all that interested in driving their boats fast - even in something like the ARC, since comfort is important too.

If you're only interested in driving fast - buy a powerboat.
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Last edited by Classic30; 12-04-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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  #204  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
Agreed. 100%.

..and there are an awful lot of cruising folk out there who simply aren't all that interested in driving their boats fast - even in something like the ARC, since comfort is important too.

If you're only interested in driving fast - buy a powerboat.
Powerboat? What about a Pogo.
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  #205  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Powerboat? What about a Pogo.
Nah... (a) Too slow; (b) won't go directly into the wind.

To satisfy PCP's desire for a POW (that's Porsche-On-Water) I was thinking more of something like this:



It's even got a full keel.
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  #206  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Powerboat? What about a Pogo.
So much for the POGO in the ARC:

Five boats that departed Las Palmas with the ARC have taken the decision to retire from the rally. Pogo 40Green has returned to the Canary Islands with electrical problems, whilst Liberte experienced a broken boom and will remain in Mindelo, Cape Verdes. Steering problems on Zenarra has meant they too have decided to divert to Mindelo for assistance.

Above from Noonsite
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Last edited by aeventyr60; 12-04-2013 at 10:36 PM. Reason: additional info
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  #207  
Old 12-04-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Well, it has to be a very well designed yacht, it has to be very well sailed and the modern boat has to be very poorly sailed, but yes you can say that.

That is about the same as saying that a very good driver can go faster on a twisting road with an old VW (you know the one from the 60's) than a poor driver with a brand new Porsche.

That is no proof that the 60's VW is faster then the Porsche, only that it is not enough to have a fast car, it is also needed to know how to drive it. The same with the boats.

Regards

Paulo
Or, the new porsche is very difficult to drive fast as it is very demanding and uncomfortable (and breaks down a lot) and the old vw that is comfortable and reliable is easy to drive faster.
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  #208  
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Or, the new porsche is very difficult to drive fast as it is very demanding and uncomfortable (and breaks down a lot) and the old vw that is comfortable and reliable is easy to drive faster.
Personally, I'd still prefer cruising along slowly in a nice, flashy, modern Porsche to driving fast in a beat-up old VW..
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Last edited by Classic30; 12-04-2013 at 11:13 PM.
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  #209  
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
Personally, I'd still prefer cruising along slowly in a nice, flashy, modern Porsche to driving fast in a beat-up old VW..
Comfort is more important to me than image Not to mention reliability, simplicity and cost.
But, I get a lot of compliments on my boat as well..

Last edited by GBurton; 12-05-2013 at 01:02 AM.
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  #210  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

I am once again referencing the ARC+ and the very fine performance of the Laurin 32, Corona Ag. The overweight, full keeled, short, ancient, double ender that is currently sailing faster than many of the much more modern, fin keeled boats. As I have participated in a number of similar events, I must disagree with the assessment of PCP and Classic30 and certainly many dozens of others.
It shows no respect what-so-ever for all the fine sailors in the boats behind the Laurin 32, to imply they are all poor sailors and only the sailors on Corona Ag are good sailors. That is Absurd. The reason that all of those boats are behind the Laurin is because they are slower. Under the circumstances that all of the boats are sailing under, all of the boats behind the Laurin are SLOWER. In almost all cases, if not all, the small boats participating are over loaded, have small crews, and doing the best they can, knowing it is a long haul. The lighter, fin keeled boat, is moving around more than the Laurin. The crew is probably a bit more fatigued. The boat is setting below its (original) lines and simply cannot carry the extra weight compared to the boat that was designed heavier in the first place and able to carry that weight. Remember that if the shape of the hull was correct at a given displacement, it is no longer correct at the displacement + 30%. Remember also that all of these boats are now in displacement mode but literally none of them have hull shapes optimizing a displacement speed.
The boats behind the Laurin are slower boats when cruising. What is being observed in this event is the norm. Are all of those boats always slower than the Laurin? No, of course not. They have the potential to be faster, when they are more empty, sailing in smoother water, and sailing within a weather window, as in a typical race.
PCP implied that the Bavaria Match 42 was a much faster boat than the Malo 43’s ahead of it. Well - NO. When the Bavaria 42 is more empty, has a racing crew and going the short distance, then yes. But, obviously, as shown, when that boat is loaded (or over loaded), has a small crew, has to run the long haul, etc, it is NOT the fast boat PCP says it is. It is slower than the heavier designed Malo.
The following quote is from Mikejohns of a different thread: “The best advice for anyone and especially designers is to sail offshore on different types of boats and see the difference”. Fewer things are more true. It is my own opinion that if the designers and theorist on this forum spent a little more time on the different boats, IN THE OCEAN, they may, in fact, design us better sea going boats, if they had enough integrity to do so.
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